Penalizing Cadets for Uniform Wear

[jimmydeanno]

Perfect, and IG has come into the discussion.

How would you, as an IG, handle a complaint filed by an 18 year old cadet who claimed that they were discriminated against because they weren't allowed to participate in the National Cadet Competition due to their weight and age, even though CAPs non-discriminiation policy states that CAP members shall not be excluded from any activity on the basis of age or disability?

[afgeo4]

CAP is NOT the boy scouts....   (or girls scouts)   

So that's why there aren't any cookies at my meetings?

Seriously though... we aren't the boy scouts, but we do have some similarities. Leadership training for the youth is one of the primary goals for both organizations. 52-16 will help you catch up

[Sgt. Savage]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

[afgeo4]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

Thank you Sgt and you're right. That's what the reg says.

However, we wouldn't be officers (or occifers, whichever you'd prefer) if we didn't argue validity and sanity of at least some regulations.

After all, part of our job is to make (and change) policy.

[jimmydeanno]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

"All it takes for evil to triumph in the world is for good men to do nothing."- Edmond Burke

[Flying Pig]

Were your standards as stringent for the CAP knowledge test?

It stands to reason there had to be one or two really poor performers there, possibly with learning disabilities?

Did those cadets also get cut from the team??

The Deputy Commander for Cadets along with the DT commander cut several people for various reasons.  Just because you make the team, doesn't mean you stayed on the team.  You earn your spot everyday.  And not just in CAP.  This is a lesson that extends far beyond anything to do with NCC or CAP. Our culture is that if I dont make the standards, I file a complaint and get the rule changed.  It doesnt matter that thousands have come before me without any issue.

I have never been part of a real team that had it any other way.   Being part of a team means we all earned the right to be here.  That 18-year-old-cadet knew that when they hit 18 they would no longer be able to meet the standards and would then either be penalized or removed.  What steps did he/she take to prevent it?  Thats seems to be the issue.  Instead, we just change the regulation, and throw out quotes that people are evil for wanting to stick to the standard.  We are not taking into account the message that it sends to the other cadets who were prepared and met the established standard.

afgeo4
Don't know where you learned to place competition before people, but you better stop doing that soon. CAP isn't there to win contests. We're there to train cadets. ALL OF THEM.


Then someone needs to get a hold of NCC and tell them to stop awarding trophies.  Your right, we are here to train all cadets, but we are not here to make excuses for people who dont meet the standard.  Especially making excuses for adults who failed to prepare for what they knew was coming. You want to talk about preparing a cadet for life?  There it is. 
You dont make it to NCC and not know whats expected.  The cadet went through Group, Wing and Region before NCC.  That time frame spans about 9 months.  The cadet failed the team. The team didn't fail the cadet.

Im curious what world you all live in?  In what vocation or profession are people allowed to stay on even after they no longer meet the standard.  There isnt one.  If the cadet is invaluable to the team, keep them on and take the hit.  If there are others who meet the standard, still, keep him on and penalize the other prepared cadets who are waiting their turn.

I had an officer when I was on SWAT who was a true leader on the team.  When the time came that he could no longer make the PFT scores, he resigned and made a place for a new member.  Thats a leader.  He didnt make excuses, nor ask for the scores to be lowered.  When I was in the military, it would be unheard of to ask for the regs to be changed so you could stay on.  And none of us were evil because of it.  We were all adults, just like this cadet we are talking about.  So what can this cadet take from this?  A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine, nor do we all need to change the regs to accomodate one persons lack of preparedness.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Competition is different than the regular program.  I played football, and was prtyy good in HS, but I was not good enough for the NFL.  Should I sue?

A person can meet the minimum standards of the program, but competition is for the super-achievers.  If a cadet isn't good enough for competition due to his or her physical condition, then the cadet is a drag on the team.  Find someone who isn't.

[ZigZag911]

Flying Pig, your answer is somewhat ambiguous.

Were the same exacting standards applied in all areas of the competition?

Were they applied equally to all cadets?

[jimmydeanno]

In all actuality, I have no problem with team "try-outs" and selecting the best of that group, however, the issue I am posing simply put, eliminates the possibility of these cadets from even trying out - never mind actually making the team.

[afgeo4]

Competition is different than the regular program.  I played football, and was prtyy good in HS, but I was not good enough for the NFL.  Should I sue?

A person can meet the minimum standards of the program, but competition is for the super-achievers.  If a cadet isn't good enough for competition due to his or her physical condition, then the cadet is a drag on the team.  Find someone who isn't.

Oh yes... but... height/weight isn't equal to your physical condition. That's why people get taped in the military to figure out their BMI. I have a few friends who are Security Police and they're also amateur bodybuilders. They weigh considerably more than regulations allow, but have very little body fat and are in GREAT shape. They get taped every time and pass it with flying colors, every time.

CAP doesn't allow for taping. We just have height/weight. Thus, these cadets may be in amazing shape and still not even allowed to try out for the team. It's bad for the cadets, bad for the team, and VERY bad for CAP. Should there be a lawsuit? I don't think so, but we shouldn't need a lawsuit to fix something that's obviously not 100% right.

[capchiro]

Ahhh, the old BMI argument.  Most, I would dare say 95% of the people that don't meet the weight standard are not so muscle bound that they bust the scale.  They are obese.  Exceptions can always be found, but regulations require uniformity and exceptions do not fall within the standards and the reason is that they are"exceptions".  Remember also that CAP weight standards are slightly higher than Air Force standards  thereby allowing for a little fudge factor.   Little pun there.  One fo the great problems with the country today is the dumbing down of society by the inclusion of all.  By mainstreaming children in classrooms that can't keep up and the teacher having to teach at the lowest level, thereby ignoring my child, the gifted one.  So as we move all of the sheep together, who is going to train the sheepdogs.  You know the ones that we will expect to  cover our rears tomorrow??  Not all men are created equal.  Every man may be expected to work to his highest level of potential, but for crying out loud, why keep back the good ones so the mediocre ones can feel good about themselves?  Perhaps we should encourage them to do whatever they can exceed at and let it go.  If the person is obese or too tall, they won't get a seat in a fighter in the Air Force.  Sad?? Yes!!  Disheartening?  Yes.  Real?? Yes!  If this cadet hasn't realized he's over the weight limit and therefore not cream of the crop by now, he certainly has led a well sheltered and protected life and now it's time to wake up and smell the coffee or diet-slim or something..

[afgeo4]

I agree with you and when it comes to an adult trying out for a job it's certainly a "are you qualified?" kind of approach, but we're not a job. We're a volunteer organization tasked with teaching young men and women good citizenship and leadership. If one day NHQ took away all the competitions and our military style uniforms and drill and ceremonies, we'd still be left with a cadet program that teaches these core values and skills.

CAP has nothing to do with weight. Our cadet program's physical fitness program exists to promote physical health among Americans, not select potential future SEAL team members and weed out the others. Let the military services worry about who is fit or not fit enough for their duties. After all, they pay their people to be fit, so they can demand it. Should we encourage our cadets to be fit? Absolutely. That's part of our job as cadet program people. Should we exclude a cadet from activities simply because they aren't cut out to become a U.S. Marine? Nope. That just isn't what we're here for. Now... you can disagree with the concept of it all day long, but then you're just trying to make a military service out of a volunteer organization. It just isn't who we are.

Before you start on a biased rant, please be informed that I myself am prior service and I know the value of physical fitness. I also know that taping an airman isn't an everyday occasion, but... it's a lot more common than you may think. Yes, we have extra allowances for our cadets and officers on top of USAF standards, but that's only for USAF style uniforms, not for participation in programs.

Before anyone else makes a decision on this, please think about this case:

Uniform Supplement comes out that states that the only uniform authorized for flight duty in CAP will be the USAF style sage green flightsuit.

Think about the effect THAT will have on our organization and our mission. Just one simple sentence, two short lines of text. Think of the result, think of our members' opinions and what it would lead to. Then apply the same thinking to our cadet competition issue.

[Sgt. Savage]

I guess, to elaborate, that the Regulation has taken into consideration that the cadet in question is not a child, they are simply a cadet. If the rules were meant to apply to all cadets, it would not be written as it is. Failure to advance to a Senior Membership does not preclude a person from attaining adulthood.

Part of this idea is reflected in the regulations as well. We allow cadets to remain cadets after age 18 so long as they don't join the AD military, get married, get pregnant or some other act of adulthood.

Treat them like adults and expect them to comply with the regulations. We expect them to before they're 18, right?

[afgeo4]

I guess, to elaborate, that the Regulation has taken into consideration that the cadet in question is not a child, they are simply a cadet. If the rules were meant to apply to all cadets, it would not be written as it is. Failure to advance to a Senior Membership does not preclude a person from attaining adulthood.

Part of this idea is reflected in the regulations as well. We allow cadets to remain cadets after age 18 so long as they don't join the AD military, get married, get pregnant or some other act of adulthood.

Treat them like adults and expect them to comply with the regulations. We expect them to before they're 18, right?

Not becoming a senior member isn't a "failure", it's a personal choice. Just like not becoming a commissioned officer in the military after completing a bachelor's degree isn't a failure, just a career choice. No need to penalize someone for making that choice.

I know 18 year old cadets who are staying as a cadet because they want to make Spaatz. That's the grade equivalent of CAP Captain (and much harder to attain). Do you see that as failure? I see that as determination and success and I've never even been a cadet.

[Sgt. Savage]

Sorry for the ambigous choice of word. Lets replace "Failure" with "Choosing not to". I stand by the rest of what I said, symantics aside.

[afgeo4]

I don't mind them being treated like adults. I just don't want them to be treated like they're int he military because as you stated before, if they wanted to be in the military they'd have enlisted.

[Sgt. Savage]

I don't mind them being treated like adults. I just don't want them to be treated like they're int he military because as you stated before, if they wanted to be in the military they'd have enlisted.

I'm not sure I said that.

None the less, the regulations are in place and accepted by each member as they join. We come here knowing that we are expected to comply with all regulations, not just the ones that make us feel good.

I do think that BMI should be used to evaluate height and weight. Still, though, if they are over 18 and fail to meet height and weight, they should be restricted to the corporate uniform. Why can't a drill team perform in corporates?

[Ned]

As much fun as the thread has been, it is simply the result of the NCC regulation (and the ROEs that preceded it) being "overtaken by events."

When the ROEs were written, the TPU was not an option for cadets over the age of 18.

Now it is.

And as a practical matter (as others have pointed out), it just doesn't come up very often because of the inherent nature of the competative process.

I have every confidence that The Powers that Be will simply update the reg the next time it goes through the mill to allow cadets to compete in either TPU or blues.

So feel good about yourselves and CAPTALK.

Because of this thread, the regulation will be updated to be more inclusive.

Have a nice day.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[afgeo4]

But they CAN compete in either TPU or blues. The problem is that the team gets points taken away for not looking uniform thus pretty much ensuring their loss in the competition.

Was the weight restriction there before the TPU or were cadets over 18 able to wear the USAF style uniform? If they were, then there shouldn't be a problem with them wearing it now. Let's just scratch the TPU for cadets in general.

[jimmydeanno]

The weight restriction was there before the TPU - they could wear the corporate gray combo, etc...

IIRC, the weight restriction came about around the same time that cadets over 18 had to complete CPPT...