Penalizing Cadets for Uniform Wear

[jimmydeanno]

Here's a topic, might be interesting - and if it's in the wrong spot, please let me know.

This is out of the new CAPM 52-4, National Cadet Competition.

For the purpose of this discussion we will deal only with the National Cadet Drill Team Competition for citation purposes.

3-2. UNIFORM.

a. All uniform items must be worn in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform
Manual.
b. The authorized uniform for male cadets is the short-sleeve blue shirt (with epaulets), with tie
and tie-tac (or tie bar but the team must be standardized) and blue trousers. The authorized uniform
for female cadets is the short-sleeve blue blouse (with epaulets), with tab and blue slacks or skirt.
c. Ribbons, white shoulder cord, and flight caps will be worn. Taps on shoes are not authorized.

I recently posed and inquiry one of the fine folks at NHQ (who shall remain nameless) about this policy.  My inquiry was this:

"As the rules currently stand, there is no stipulation for a cadet over the age of 18 who does not meet the weight standards to wear the AF Style SS Blues uniform.  Should this rule be amended to include the wear of the new Corporate Style SS uniform in this case?" - not the exact wording, but close enough.

Here is the response:

Hi Jimmy,

Actually any changes of that nature would have to be approved by the National Board so your wing/region commander is the most appropriate person to make the argument to.

However, since the teams are graded on uniformity, any team having a member in a different uniform would be penalized for the disparity in addition to any performance errors. 

Some other activities are making a provision for cadets to wear a different uniform if they cannot wear the AF style uniform combinations and it will have to be addressed eventually.

Thanks for the input.

So essentially, a cadet that doesn't meet the weight standards could participate, but probably wouldn't because they'd be an automatic penalty for their team.  So the stage is set, in all honesty, to prohibit overweight cadets from participating in NCC.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this?

[dwb]

I'd have to assume this is basically a non-issue, given the cadets I've seen participating in NCC (most of which look like stick figures).

Still, it's probably a gap in the way the manual is written, but I don't see it getting addressed any time soon.

[capchiro]

Since we are only discussing an optional part of the program and not a required part of it, is it not akin to saying that blind cadets cannot attend National Flight Academies?  Since participation is optional, I don't see a real problem with it, anymore than a cadet in a wheelchair couldn't participate either.  Overweight is either a disability or it is something a person can do something about, depending upon your philosophical beliefs.  As such, it should be treated as one or the other and the cadet either lose the weight or recognize the limitations imposed by his handicap.  Sounds harsh, but at 18, he should be able to deal with the real world.  And no, I don't need to hear about ADA from anyone as that is part of my profession..

[Flying Pig]

Why did you even ask that? The stage isnt set to prevent anyone from participating at NCC. Your making it sound like its some sort of ADA violation/conspiracy. 

[jimmydeanno]

Participation in CAP is optional isn't it...

This is why I asked for those of you who want to know...

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).

Qualified Member with a Disability" means a CAP member with a disability who, either with or without reasonable accommodation, can perform the essential functions required by a CAP program or activity that such CAP member desires to participate in.

I don't think it is too much to ask that ALL CADETS be eligible to participate in the National CADET competition.  There isn't any events they wouldn't be able to participate in.  Isn't this the reason they have ALTERNATE uniforms in the first place?

[Ned]

While individuals can and do vary, I would suspect that >18 cadets who do not qualify to wear the USAF-style uniform might also be challenged in the mile run and vollyball phases of the competition.

I can't think of a fair way to statistically "normalize" the scores on the mile run for cadets handicapped by obesity.

But I'm open to suggestions.

[jimmydeanno]

Cadets of any weight can and do have varying degrees of difficulty running the mile.  That is to be expected, but at least those that don't weigh "X" amount of pounds are allowed to participate, even if they already run a 16 minute mile.

The purpose of the Cadet Competition is to create a team and balance strengths with weaknesses to come out victorious.  True, an overweight cadet might not run the fastest mile, but he/she may rock at quiz bowl, inspection, written exam or volley ball.

But no, instead we say, "you can't have a fat kid over 18 on your team."  If he was 17 he'd be allowed to participate... (isn't that age discrimination?)

One of the comments before about NFA and blind kids doesn't work, because we aren't talking about a real safety issue such as flying a plane without being able to see.  The worst that happens is the kid runs a slow mile or doesn't run it at all - they still have to participate in CPFT at the local squadron, so what's the difference?

[capchiro]

Well, if a cadet is CAT III or IV, they do notate a way to give them a score in the mile run.  That being said, and I can't remember exactly where to look, Aren't all cadets exempt from the weight standards?  I have a seen a lot of obese cadets at encampments running around in their blues and BDU's.  Is there some change for 18-21 year old cadets?  I don't think so, but I may be wrong.  If there is no change then it would be okay for an obese 18 year old cadet to wear the blues and go to National competition and embarrass themselves and their peers/teammates to death.  Now why would you want to set them up for that type of failure??  I mean, after all, they do grade on presentation.  On the other hand, I would think there might also be the question of whether the obese cadet could perform the essential functions required by the activity, if blues are required and the Reg's say they can't wear them??

[Flying Pig]

Being someone who competed a few times at NCC, here is what I would do.  If that cadets is over 18 (an adult), I would tell them they are still a part of the team and can come as an alternate, or turn senior and come as an advisor.  There are 16 other people on the team who cannot afford to be placed in a situation where they are already starting at a disadvantage because of one team member.  NCC is an arena where 1st and 2nd are often separated by only a couple of points.   You cannot place your team, nor yourself in that postion.

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition.  And the rest of us had worked to hard for to many years to get to where we were.   My team went to NCC 3 times.  I didnt make the Drill Team the first year we went to NCC because I couldnt run fast enough.  Guess what.....I worked at it.  Im one of those people who doesn't believe everyone should get to play just because they want to.  It looks to me that CAP/NCC has set a requirement to participate, and that requirement looks like you need to meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform.

[jimmydeanno]

Well, if a cadet is CAT III or IV, they do notate a way to give them a score in the mile run.

Yes they do:

c. If a team has fewer than the mandatory number of cadets for the NDTC or for the NCGC
Mile Run event, for any reason other than approved Category III or IV status, each absent cadet will be given a score 30 seconds slower than the individual time recorded for the overall slowest cadet in the Mile Run. A cadet who is Cat III or Cat IV will be given a score equal to the individual time recorded for the overall slowest cadet in the Mile Run.

That being said, and I can't remember exactly where to look, Aren't all cadets exempt from the weight standards?  I have a seen a lot of obese cadets at encampments running around in their blues and BDU's.  Is there some change for 18-21 year old cadets?  I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

Here's the quote:

NOTES:
1. Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AFstyle
uniform.

If there is no change then it would be okay for an obese 18 year old cadet to wear the blues and go to National competition and embarrass themselves and their peers/teammates to death.  Now why would you want to set them up for that type of failure??

I hardly think that if an obese cadet made it to National Competition they would be an embarassment.  I guess fat kids should just sit down, shut up, and let the thin kids have all the fun.  I mean, afterall, why would we want to build self esteem and motivation in a fat kid... (sarcasm)

I mean, after all, they do grade on presentation.

Yes, they do grade on presentation.  How the cadet wears his uniform - are his ribbons on right, is his insignia on correctly, does his gigline line up.  The grading isn't based on how far his stomach extends past his belt.  

On the other hand, I would think there might also be the question of whether the obese cadet could perform the essential functions required by the activity, if blues are required and the Reg's say they can't wear them??

I don't see the question of their ability here...

[Flying Pig]

Were talking about an 18 year old adult who  has chosen to place themselves in that sitation.  The shelters of childhood are over.  Welcome to reality.

[jimmydeanno]

Being someone who competed a few times at NCC, here is what I would do.  If that cadets is over 18 (an adult), I would tell them they are still a part of the team and can come as an alternate, or turn senior and come as an advisor.  There are 16 other people on the team who cannot afford to be placed in a situation where they are already starting at a disadvantage because of one team member.  NCC is an arena where 1st and 2nd are often separated by only a couple of points.   You cannot place your team, nor yourself in that postion.

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition.  And the rest of us had worked to hard for to many years to get to where we were.   My team went to NCC 3 times.  I didnt make the Drill Team the first year we went to NCC because I couldnt run fast enough.  Guess what.....I worked at it.  Im one of those people who doesn't believe everyone should get to play just because they want to.  It looks to me that CAP/NCC has set a requirement to participate, and that requirement looks like you need to meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform.

I too have competed in NCC several times and trained a CG team to National.

Unfortunately too many people have the mindset you do in which winning the competition takes precedence over the true spirit of the competition.  If the kid was good enough to help the team make it through region competition why would you pull him and tell him he's not good enough to try at the national competition.

In your case, the female cadet is given a 1.5 minute reduction on their mile time.  I'm sorry if you feel that a 7:00 mile is too slow for your team.

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

You said you weren't fast enough to make the team the first year, but apparantly she was good enough to make the team and at the last minute, you told her she couldn't compete.  What a shame.

[jimmydeanno]

Were talking about an 18 year old adult who  has chosen to place themselves in that sitation.  The shelters of childhood are over.  Welcome to reality.

Then I guess CAP shouldn't allow 18 year olds to remain cadets then, should they...

[Flying Pig]

Do you want my opinion?

[afgeo4]

I think it's terrible to make cadets meet weight standards to wear the USAF style uniform after they reach 18. Why? It obviously impedes on their participation in the program and if it's ok for a 17 year old, why not an 18 year old? It has no impact on the Air Force.

17 year olds can enlist, so where did they get the "18" number? It's almost the same as telling a cadet that since he/she is overweight and 18 they have to turn Senior.

[jimmydeanno]

^
Here's the quote:

NOTES:
1. Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AF style uniform.

[Flying Pig]

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

Nope, we had 15 team members and one individual.  Some may think Im a little harsh.  But I guess after 8 years in the Infantry and 10 years as a law enforcement officer, my view of a Team is one where everybody pulles an equal weight. Not part of the weight hoping everyone else will pick up the slack.  Have you ever done log drills?  There is a difference between diversity of skills and a weak link.

[afgeo4]

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

Nope, we had 15 team members and one individual.  Some may think Im a little harsh.  But I guess after 8 years in the Infantry and 10 years as a law enforcement officer, my view of a Team is one where everybody pulles an equal weight. Not part of the weight hoping everyone else will pick up the slack.  Have you ever done log drills?  There is a difference between diversity of skills and a weak link.

Don't know where you learned to place competition before people, but you better stop doing that soon. CAP isn't there to win contests. We're there to train cadets. ALL OF THEM.

The challenge in that lies in exactly the situation you described. Not in elimination of the weakest link, but in figuring out how to strengthen the link. THAT is leadership.

Now I understand that in the real military, the mission comes first, but... the mission isn't combat here. The mission is to train cadets in teamwork, leadership, and how to overcome obstacles of life. Avoiding those obstacles isn't overcoming them.

Maybe you've succeeded as a drill team, but I think you've failed as a TEAM.

[DHollywood]

CAP is NOT the boy scouts....   (or girls scouts)   

[ZigZag911]

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition. 

Were your standards as stringent for the CAP knowledge test?

It stands to reason there had to be one or two really poor performers there, possibly with learning disabilities?

Did those cadets also get cut from the team??