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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Officer Shoulder Boards
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xray328
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Posts: 515
Unit: IL-189

« on: February 15, 2017, 05:54:51 PM »

I looked at the 39-1 and can't find any topics on the site about this so...

I noticed that the "buttons" on the cadet shoulder boards don't match the new style button on the service coat. Has Vanguard just not caught up?  I guess this is acceptable wear?
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2017, 06:18:26 PM »

Dunno but you could maybe replace 'em with these if the size is right:


Source: https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/air-force-button-waf-hap-arnold-20-ligne-silver-oxidized

Might want to call Vanguard and ask if the website pictures are just old. Maybe the boards are shipping with the newer buttons. 39-1 depicts the newer buttons.
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xray328
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2017, 06:24:25 PM »





I just ordered these, and it's not that simple.  These are permanently affixed.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2017, 06:32:49 PM »

Something else to add to the "not considered" list.
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vorteks
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Posts: 225

« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2017, 06:42:19 PM »





I just ordered these, and it's not that simple.  These are permanently affixed.


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Oh.   
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foo
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2017, 07:13:10 PM »

Is it acceptable to wear? Of course. Consider also the fact that cadets are still authorized to wear the "old style" service coats that have the older button style.

Vanguard could probably fairly easily swap out the buttons upon request (demand?) since they sell senior member insignia with the new style buttons. I also think you could do it yourself without much trouble using those other referenced buttons from Vanguard (I wouldn't be afraid to try it), but either way your cadet would end up with one-of-a-kind insignia.

My guess is that they will start making the boards with the new style buttons after they run out of the old stock. It would be ideal if the shoulder board buttons matched the service coat buttons, but this is really a non-issue.
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xray328
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Posts: 515
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2017, 07:27:13 PM »

Seems like a snap on button would also work, just include one set of each.  Darn things cost enough ($31.50) for them to include both.


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ThatOneGuy
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2017, 05:30:56 AM »

Old style service coat FTW...That being said, there has been no issue I have seen with the buttons on the board and coat not matching. It is there, but as that is how it comes from the manufacturer it's been a non issue.

Plus isn't the button hidden under the collar of the coat when you're actually wearing it? I remember mine was WIWAC, but I'm not exactly a linebacker either. Bottom line; I don't think anyone really cares that much about them not matching. 

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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2017, 11:18:34 AM »

Those buttons are "CAP" buttons, which are close to the Ancient Air Force buttons.

Don't think we'd ever swap them, given that we can't use the AF button design to begin with.
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xray328
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2017, 11:27:15 AM »

It's very visible on the female coat, maybe because they're smaller.




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xray328
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2017, 11:28:46 AM »

Those buttons are "CAP" buttons, which are close to the Ancient Air Force buttons.

Don't think we'd ever swap them, given that we can't use the AF button design to begin with.

Can we swap the old buttons onto the new coat? Or put CAP buttons on it to match?


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LSThiker
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2017, 11:48:46 AM »

Can we swap the old buttons onto the new coat?

No

Quote
Or put CAP buttons on it to match?

Yes:

Quote
4.1.5.2.  Coat.  The men's service dress coat will be polyester and wool-blend, serge weave; semi-drape, single-breasted with three USAF "Wing and star" or CAP Crest buttons.....
     

Quote
4.1.7.2.  Coat.  The women's service dress coat will be polyester and wool-blend, serge weave; semi-drape, single-breasted with three USAF "Wing and star" or CAP Crest buttons.....
     

I actually removed my USAF buttons after they got worn and put CAP crest buttons.  Got a few questions.  Now, I just removed the buttons from my corporate blazer and put CAP triangle buttons on it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2017, 12:36:13 PM »

Now, I just removed the buttons from my corporate blazer and put CAP triangle buttons on it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

I did that as well a couple years ago - front and sleeves, though I have to say I'm not sure whether
it's impressive or super-hero OCD that anyone would notice.
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xray328
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2017, 01:06:36 PM »

Probably the latter, but I'm there with ya


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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »

Proving that everything old is new again...

The "old buttons on shoulder boards" problem happened once before, in 1966-67. CAP buttons changed from shiny prop and triangle to anodized buttons patterned after usaf buttons (the ines now on the shoulder boards).

As has been noted, the buttons are "permanent." The fix then was to "un-permanent" them. Gently pry up the mounting on the back and remove the entire button. Replace it with the screw-in button from the service cap, using the post removed from
An old cap. (Or purchase a new post. They used to be available and might still be from cap manufacturers).
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
THRAWN
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2017, 08:56:19 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2017, 09:38:14 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

+1 No idea why these are still a "thing".
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kwe1009
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2017, 10:48:46 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

If we get rid of the shoulder boards then how is VG going to make up the loss of the $25 profit they make from each should board sale?

Seriously you are correct.  For cadets who have service coats without epaulets, they just need to buy the conversion kit ($30) and have it sewn on.  While the price is about the same as the shoulder boards, once the coat has epaulets, it is done and anyone else who uses that coat won't have to do anything.

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2017, 11:09:24 AM »

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I helped one cadet in a pinch who had broken a pin.  We cut the other one off and used double-sided brick tape to affix the grade.
IMHO it actually looked better and didn't leave holes, but you have to be >VERY< careful when you remove them that yo don't wreck the cloth.

If nothing else, standard cadet epaulet sleeves should be an option.  Those boards are far more trouble then the affectation and expense is worth
and on smaller cadets and females, sometimes look more like an IKEA shelf then grade insignia.

While the I Dream of Jeannie (IDOJ) jackets are still nice for cadets to be able to wear, the ones still around are definitely showing their age and wear,
and it's not really that hard to find 3-button jackets, considering the USAF hasn't worn the IDOJ version since about 1994, and what's it been
at least 5 years since they were phased out at the USAFA?
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2017, 07:32:08 PM »

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I helped one cadet in a pinch who had broken a pin.  We cut the other one off and used double-sided brick tape to affix the grade.
IMHO it actually looked better and didn't leave holes, but you have to be >VERY< careful when you remove them that yo don't wreck the cloth.

If nothing else, standard cadet epaulet sleeves should be an option.  Those boards are far more trouble then the affectation and expense is worth
and on smaller cadets and females, sometimes look more like an IKEA shelf then grade insignia.

While the I Dream of Jeannie (IDOJ) jackets are still nice for cadets to be able to wear, the ones still around are definitely showing their age and wear,
and it's not really that hard to find 3-button jackets, considering the USAF hasn't worn the IDOJ version since about 1994, and what's it been
at least 5 years since they were phased out at the USAFA?

The Phase-out date at USAFA is not relevant to CAP. They aren't the same. (Different color).
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2017, 02:09:13 AM »

Same cut though. CAP should have phased it out 10+ years ago.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2017, 05:06:09 AM »

I was talking to the guy who manages the CAP sales at a conference several years ago and he told me that VG has been trying to get CAP to change the boards for 2-3 years at that time. Boards are a PITA to them also.
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Michael P. McEleney
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ThatOneGuy
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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2017, 06:10:59 AM »

I was visiting at the academy not too long ago, and the cadets were all wearing the "old style" cut coat, but looked to be a darker shade of blue (1620?) than the ones cadets are usually spotted wearing here. Say what you will about them being outdated, they were made pretty well.

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LATORRECA
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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2017, 05:43:19 PM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?
   I follow this motion. Completely idiotic. Who cares, I'm sure no one will come that close, inspect yours uniform that is worn few times a year.

   Cadets worry about some stuff with no relevance. Why they don't worry about teaching drill properly,  leadership and activities for cadets at the lower ranks.

Top

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xray328
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« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2017, 10:13:07 PM »

I don't know? Maybe it has something to do with going to Legislative Day and wanting to look sharp before members of Congress.


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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 03:24:00 AM »

Same cut though. CAP should have phased it out 10+ years ago.

Agreed.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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LATORRECA
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 05:21:05 AM »

Same cut though. CAP should have phased it out 10+ years ago.

Agreed.
Aye


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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2017, 01:11:37 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

If we get rid of the shoulder boards then how is VG going to make up the loss of the $25 profit they make from each should board sale?

Seriously you are correct.  For cadets who have service coats without epaulets, they just need to buy the conversion kit ($30) and have it sewn on.  While the price is about the same as the shoulder boards, once the coat has epaulets, it is done and anyone else who uses that coat won't have to do anything.

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I'm just curious. Of the people advocating for dumping the shoulder boards, how many actually wore them? I did, and I'd be sorry to see them go. They were an important symbol in my cadet days and most cadet officers since about 1965 or so have worn them (exceptions being the ones who were transitioning at their introduction and Cadet Warrant Officers who, at first, were not allowed to wear them).

Of course, they probably had greater meaning to those of us who wore them before epaulet slides were introduced. The shoulder boards were worn on both coats and shirts way back when.

If the meaning and gravitas has been lost over time, then shame on us, but why not get it back rather than simply dumping them.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
SarDragon
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2017, 01:34:20 AM »

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2017, 02:02:52 AM »

    I like them a lot. I wore them and never had issues with them or placing the ranks on them. I just didn't like the placing Velcro to keep them fastened to the epaulets.
My .02˘

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THRAWN
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2017, 09:56:00 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

If we get rid of the shoulder boards then how is VG going to make up the loss of the $25 profit they make from each should board sale?

Seriously you are correct.  For cadets who have service coats without epaulets, they just need to buy the conversion kit ($30) and have it sewn on.  While the price is about the same as the shoulder boards, once the coat has epaulets, it is done and anyone else who uses that coat won't have to do anything.

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I'm just curious. Of the people advocating for dumping the shoulder boards, how many actually wore them? I did, and I'd be sorry to see them go. They were an important symbol in my cadet days and most cadet officers since about 1965 or so have worn them (exceptions being the ones who were transitioning at their introduction and Cadet Warrant Officers who, at first, were not allowed to wear them).

Of course, they probably had greater meaning to those of us who wore them before epaulet slides were introduced. The shoulder boards were worn on both coats and shirts way back when.

If the meaning and gravitas has been lost over time, then shame on us, but why not get it back rather than simply dumping them.

I never wore the guayabera shirt but wanted that gone too. These accessories may have had some value at one time, but more and more it seems as if they are just a pain to deal with, and people are spending more time playing craft time. Fix the design issues or dump them. They're as useful as feet on a fish.
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Strup
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arajca
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2017, 11:26:37 AM »

I have worn them, both on the service jacket and the NON-EPAULET blues shirt. With snaps.

I think they should be replaced, but, as many cadet officers get AF Enlisted service coats without epaulets, I'm not sure what to replace them with.

As an aside, I think the practice of cadet officer wearing grade insignia on the flight cap should change. A miniature version of the cadet officer service cap device would be appropriate. Perhaps the molds/stamps for the old female beret cadet officer device still exist.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2017, 11:46:21 AM »

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

If we get rid of the shoulder boards then how is VG going to make up the loss of the $25 profit they make from each should board sale?

Seriously you are correct.  For cadets who have service coats without epaulets, they just need to buy the conversion kit ($30) and have it sewn on.  While the price is about the same as the shoulder boards, once the coat has epaulets, it is done and anyone else who uses that coat won't have to do anything.

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I'm just curious. Of the people advocating for dumping the shoulder boards, how many actually wore them? I did, and I'd be sorry to see them go. They were an important symbol in my cadet days and most cadet officers since about 1965 or so have worn them (exceptions being the ones who were transitioning at their introduction and Cadet Warrant Officers who, at first, were not allowed to wear them).

Of course, they probably had greater meaning to those of us who wore them before epaulet slides were introduced. The shoulder boards were worn on both coats and shirts way back when.

If the meaning and gravitas has been lost over time, then shame on us, but why not get it back rather than simply dumping them.


As a former cadet officer, I too liked the boards. At least 10 years ago (wow, I'm getting pretty old), it was something to aspire to. The pips alone aren't cool, but pips on boards? Certainly.


That said, they need to redesign them with a better attachment system.
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Papabird
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2017, 12:41:44 PM »

As a former cadet officer, I too liked the boards. At least 10 years ago (wow, I'm getting pretty old), it was something to aspire to. The pips alone aren't cool, but pips on boards? Certainly.
That said, they need to redesign them with a better attachment system.

As a former CAP & AFJROTC cadet the board have always been interesting to me and seem more like Navy than Air Force.  With the exception of AF Academy and Mess Dress, the boards have gone away.   But I also remember striving for the boards.

In JROTC we used to wear the hard metal pentagons on our epaulets on all classes of blues.  Hurt like heck when someone hit your shoulder.  After my time (in the 90s) they came out with the epaulet sleeves for the shirts, which seemed to help.  At some point in the late 90s, after the uniforms change, the JROTC units standarized on the enlisted coats and changed the grade location for officers to the lapel (where the US, CAP or Cadet Eagle was).  Sometimes it is hard to make out the number of stripes, and therefore differentiate between grades, but it works.

If CAP were to get rid of the boards we would have to either mandate the epaulets or look to another location on the uniform for the cadet officer grade.  But good feedback to be taken up the chain.
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Michael Willis, Lt. Col CAP
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PHall
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2017, 12:44:34 PM »

People keep saying that you need the epaulets on the jacket to wear the shoulder boards.
No you don't...

To me it was much easier to attach the boards to the "enlisted" jacket.  Cheaper too!
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NIN
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2017, 02:05:55 PM »

People keep saying that you need the epaulets on the jacket to wear the shoulder boards.
No you don't...

To me it was much easier to attach the boards to the "enlisted" jacket.  Cheaper too!

The velcro method always worked better with one less layer (epaulet) in there.
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Hyperion
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2017, 06:31:56 PM »

As a former cadet officer, I too liked the boards. At least 10 years ago (wow, I'm getting pretty old), it was something to aspire to. The pips alone aren't cool, but pips on boards? Certainly.
That said, they need to redesign them with a better attachment system.

As a former CAP & AFJROTC cadet the board have always been interesting to me and seem more like Navy than Air Force.  With the exception of AF Academy and Mess Dress, the boards have gone away.   But I also remember striving for the boards.

In JROTC we used to wear the hard metal pentagons on our epaulets on all classes of blues.  Hurt like heck when someone hit your shoulder.  After my time (in the 90s) they came out with the epaulet sleeves for the shirts, which seemed to help.  At some point in the late 90s, after the uniforms change, the JROTC units standarized on the enlisted coats and changed the grade location for officers to the lapel (where the US, CAP or Cadet Eagle was).  Sometimes it is hard to make out the number of stripes, and therefore differentiate between grades, but it works.

If CAP were to get rid of the boards we would have to either mandate the epaulets or look to another location on the uniform for the cadet officer grade.  But good feedback to be taken up the chain.

Former AFJROTC cadet officer here as well. I agree, AFJROTC has the right idea.

Whether you are a cadet officer or cadet enlisted, you wear hard metal ranks on the lapels. This negates needing to worry about which version of the service dress you have bought. I am also sure that our cadets will not have a hard time distinguishing from a distance if there is a stripe or dot on the collar of the person they need to salute. Shapes are not hard to recognize.

Make things simpler and cheaper for our cadets: Just use the small metal officer ranks in the same place that the cadet enlisted wear their ranks for all our uniforms. It will save so much time and money. You can change the pin-on rank in seconds between your uniforms as well, removing the need to buy so many pairs of ranks per promotion. Done.
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Jaison009
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2017, 09:11:10 PM »

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This is idiotic. How much time and effort is being spent on arts and crafts projects like this? Ditch the boards. Problem solved. What's next?

If we get rid of the shoulder boards then how is VG going to make up the loss of the $25 profit they make from each should board sale?

Seriously you are correct.  For cadets who have service coats without epaulets, they just need to buy the conversion kit ($30) and have it sewn on.  While the price is about the same as the shoulder boards, once the coat has epaulets, it is done and anyone else who uses that coat won't have to do anything.

The shoulder boards are hard on the rank pins too.  I've seen too many fall off because the pins broke.  Just a complete waste of time and money.

I'm just curious. Of the people advocating for dumping the shoulder boards, how many actually wore them? I did, and I'd be sorry to see them go. They were an important symbol in my cadet days and most cadet officers since about 1965 or so have worn them (exceptions being the ones who were transitioning at their introduction and Cadet Warrant Officers who, at first, were not allowed to wear them).

Of course, they probably had greater meaning to those of us who wore them before epaulet slides were introduced. The shoulder boards were worn on both coats and shirts way back when.

If the meaning and gravitas has been lost over time, then shame on us, but why not get it back rather than simply dumping them.
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GaryVC
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2017, 10:28:00 PM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.
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PHall
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« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2017, 10:56:54 PM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.

Full size insignia works when you have 1 or 2 devices, but that 3rd device makes them too wide to fit on the epaulet sleeve.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 04:45:02 AM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.

Full size insignia works when you have 1 or 2 devices, but that 3rd device makes them too wide to fit on the epaulet sleeve.

Two possible fixes for that:

1) Make a new size, somewhere between the current tiny ones and the long-standing large ones. Then scrap the largest and smallest, using the new mid sized for everything.

2) (and easiest fix of all) - get rid of the need for a third insignia device. Gold pip for C/2nd Lt, silver for C/1st Lt, two silver pips for C/Capt. Continuing - gold lozenge (that's what they are, they aren't diamonds) for C/Maj, silver lozenge for C/Lt Col.  C/Col can be two silver lozenges.

Think about it - that would actually put the insignia colors in parallel with bars and leaves. (Except for C/Col, but ya can't win 'em all. Or can you? Maybe a new C/Col insignia would be something to consider...
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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
PHall
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 01:43:56 PM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.

Full size insignia works when you have 1 or 2 devices, but that 3rd device makes them too wide to fit on the epaulet sleeve.

Two possible fixes for that:

1) Make a new size, somewhere between the current tiny ones and the long-standing large ones. Then scrap the largest and smallest, using the new mid sized for everything.

2) (and easiest fix of all) - get rid of the need for a third insignia device. Gold pip for C/2nd Lt, silver for C/1st Lt, two silver pips for C/Capt. Continuing - gold lozenge (that's what they are, they aren't diamonds) for C/Maj, silver lozenge for C/Lt Col.  C/Col can be two silver lozenges.

Think about it - that would actually put the insignia colors in parallel with bars and leaves. (Except for C/Col, but ya can't win 'em all. Or can you? Maybe a new C/Col insignia would be something to consider...

Your easiest fix is a total non-starter do to the fact that it would require regulation changes and new insignia to be produced.
Totally not worth the hassle to fix this "non-problem".
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kwe1009
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 02:12:24 PM »

Agreed.  The cadet officer rank insignia is not unique to CAP.  If we were to create different insignia there would also likely be an increased cost. 

Really the easiest solution is to just use the same epaulets that are on the blue shirt.  If the service coat doesn't have epaulets you can buy a kit and have them added for around $30.  That is a one-time cost and when that jacket gets sold or handed down to the next cadet then it is already done.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 02:24:48 PM »

To be fair, his idea requires no new insignia...just a coating change.
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LATORRECA
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 02:28:15 PM »

Is anyone seen my crayons. I'm hungry. 💂💂💂

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 02:58:07 PM »

So you are eating crayons?

 ???
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PHall
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 04:57:46 PM »

Is anyone seen my crayons. I'm hungry. 💂💂💂

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

You don't like my use of color to make it easier to see what text I referring to?
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LATORRECA
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 05:01:50 PM »

Huurraaa..... Marine Corps

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Toad1168
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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2017, 12:37:37 PM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.

Full size insignia works when you have 1 or 2 devices, but that 3rd device makes them too wide to fit on the epaulet sleeve.

Two possible fixes for that:

1) Make a new size, somewhere between the current tiny ones and the long-standing large ones. Then scrap the largest and smallest, using the new mid sized for everything.

2) (and easiest fix of all) - get rid of the need for a third insignia device. Gold pip for C/2nd Lt, silver for C/1st Lt, two silver pips for C/Capt. Continuing - gold lozenge (that's what they are, they aren't diamonds) for C/Maj, silver lozenge for C/Lt Col.  C/Col can be two silver lozenges.

Think about it - that would actually put the insignia colors in parallel with bars and leaves. (Except for C/Col, but ya can't win 'em all. Or can you? Maybe a new C/Col insignia would be something to consider...

No, no, noooooooo.....  For those of us who have worn three diamonds without issue, it truly is a non problem.  And quite frankly, no legitimate reason to change.  A size change wouldn't be an issue, but why even do that?

As far as the shoulder boards, they were a pain (especially when they had snaps), but a pain that I was happy to endure.  Leave well enough alone.  If you aren't a cadet officer with the boards, why try to change them.
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Mike Toedebusch
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GaryVC
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« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2017, 03:22:06 PM »

If they were rotated 90 degrees, full size insignia would work just fine on the epaulet sleeves. That is how the cadet rank insignia used to be worn on blues in the pre-shoulder board days.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2017, 03:31:18 PM »

I said this before but I never liked them a bit. I thought they were excessively gaudy. I can't say I care for the little tiny (almost invisible) cadet rank insignia for the slip on epaulets, either. They would be ok if they used full size cadet rank.

Full size insignia works when you have 1 or 2 devices, but that 3rd device makes them too wide to fit on the epaulet sleeve.

Two possible fixes for that:

1) Make a new size, somewhere between the current tiny ones and the long-standing large ones. Then scrap the largest and smallest, using the new mid sized for everything.

2) (and easiest fix of all) - get rid of the need for a third insignia device. Gold pip for C/2nd Lt, silver for C/1st Lt, two silver pips for C/Capt. Continuing - gold lozenge (that's what they are, they aren't diamonds) for C/Maj, silver lozenge for C/Lt Col.  C/Col can be two silver lozenges.

Think about it - that would actually put the insignia colors in parallel with bars and leaves. (Except for C/Col, but ya can't win 'em all. Or can you? Maybe a new C/Col insignia would be something to consider...

No, no, noooooooo.....  For those of us who have worn three diamonds without issue, it truly is a non problem.  And quite frankly, no legitimate reason to change.  A size change wouldn't be an issue, but why even do that?

As far as the shoulder boards, they were a pain (especially when they had snaps), but a pain that I was happy to endure.  Leave well enough alone.  If you aren't a cadet officer with the boards, why try to change them.

You're right. They are a pain, and for no reason. Why change them? Why not? Because of tradition? If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes. What purpose do they serve? Making cadet officers "distinctive"? Does that out weight the expense and the time spent Joanning them so that they are serviceable?
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shuman14
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« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2017, 09:51:59 AM »

Quote
If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes.

You make that sound like a bad idea.

Return to a single Corporate uniform for all in khaki and high visibility yellow aircraft would aid in search and rescue operations.  ;)
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Joseph J. Clune
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2017, 02:27:41 PM »

Quote
If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes.

You make that sound like a bad idea.

Return to a single Corporate uniform for all in khaki and high visibility yellow aircraft would aid in search and rescue operations.  ;)

I would like to see a single corporate uniform for all. Colors aren't the big issue - it's getting agreement that there should be one uniform that all may wear instead of one for some, one for others.

But, as to airplanes - how, exactly, do you think that yellow would "...aid in search and rescue operations?" I supppse if we crash a few of our own, they might be easier to find. But other than that...? I think you may have fallen for a "sounds good, must be good" thing.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
shuman14
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« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2017, 04:31:16 PM »

If a ground team was attempting to direct a CAP aircraft, the bright yellow one might be easier to spot from the ground.

Just a thought.  :-\
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Joseph J. Clune
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2017, 05:07:05 PM »

I think it is harder for an airplane to spot a ground team going around than for a ground team to spot one of our planes.

I have been on a ground team where the GTL suggested tying an orange vest to the roof. I was GTM. The aircraft we thought was our airplane was not, later we heard on Air channel "are you the guys with that orange thing flapping on the roof?"

If you think about it, almost any van you see around is... white. On the other hand, if you learn the signs a pilot may do over us, it is easy to know whether it is ours, coloring aside. For instance, flying in a circle the direction shows us where to focus. Flying to our front to back, going the wrong way. Flying in our direction of travel, that we are going in the correct direction. And then porpoising, rocking wings, and yawing for yes, message received and understood, not understood, etc.

How many times do you see small aircraft, Cessna-like doing all these things when on a sortie, if they are not connected to us?
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« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2017, 09:50:32 PM »

Quote
If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes.

You make that sound like a bad idea.

Return to a single Corporate uniform for all in khaki and high visibility yellow aircraft would aid in search and rescue operations.  ;)

Said by the guy who is not even allowed to wear a CAP uniform because he is a Patron Member.
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DakRadz
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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2017, 11:01:51 PM »

Quote
If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes.

You make that sound like a bad idea.

Return to a single Corporate uniform for all in khaki and high visibility yellow aircraft would aid in search and rescue operations.  ;)

Said by the guy who is not even allowed to wear a CAP uniform because he is a Patron Member.
Okay, allow the very active senior to second his motion....

Did I miss a tiff betwixt you two? I mean, if it was Eclipse I could make the assumption...
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PHall
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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2017, 11:40:04 PM »

Quote
If that's the case, we should still be in khaki and flying yellow airplanes.

You make that sound like a bad idea.

Return to a single Corporate uniform for all in khaki and high visibility yellow aircraft would aid in search and rescue operations.  ;)

Said by the guy who is not even allowed to wear a CAP uniform because he is a Patron Member.
Okay, allow the very active senior to second his motion....

Did I miss a tiff betwixt you two? I mean, if it was Eclipse I could make the assumption...

Gentleman is a Patron Member who has never worn a CAP uniform, yet he tries to give the impression that he is an "expert".
He is a Commissioned Officer in the Army Reserve and if the subject was Army uniforms, I would be asking him for answers.
 
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LATORRECA
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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2017, 01:56:36 AM »

Wow this conversation went in a total different direction.
  For some of you who never where cadets please stop giving ideas about changing cadet ranks. They are in line with the others youth organization (JROTC). They are the right size, never a problem and because we have little difficulties with them they are still OK. The original thought on this thread was about updating the button on the shoulder boards to align with the new AF blouses. I will prefer to keep all CAP buttons,  to change the button on the blouse however I'm a nostalgic fool.

That's the bottom line. I will back tracked from my original statement, changing the buttons on the boards from the factory would save money to the cadets, aligned with the AF blouse and sort of provide uniformity and consistency.
My 0.02˘.

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shuman14
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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2017, 09:12:27 AM »

Quote
Did I miss a tiff betwixt you two?

Nah, he just doesn't like me and doesn't think any good ideas for CAP can come from anywhere except from a CAP member who has at least ten years experience in the organization.

We tend to disagree a lot.  ;)
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Joseph J. Clune
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jeders
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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2017, 10:20:41 AM »

Quote
Did I miss a tiff betwixt you two?

Nah, he just doesn't like me and doesn't think any good ideas for CAP can come from anywhere except from a CAP member who has at least ten years minutes experience in the organization.

FTFY
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
abdsp51
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« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2017, 11:22:32 AM »

Quote
Did I miss a tiff betwixt you two?

Nah, he just doesn't like me and doesn't think any good ideas for CAP can come from anywhere except from a CAP member who has at least ten years experience in the organization.

We tend to disagree a lot.  ;)

Most don't like you.  And you set the tone for yourself when you first showed up trying to tell us we were broke and how to fix it with no experience in the org what so ever.
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2017, 11:44:32 AM »

Hey guys, let's keep it civil. There are usually Cadets reading these boards. Lead by example, be the change you want to see, etc, etc etc
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2017, 11:50:54 AM »

Although in general I do like Shuman's attempts to have us think about issues involving CAP. To sort of reinvent some ways of doing things... Also even if a patron member, he is still a member. However his statement of

Quote

... any good ideas for CAP can come from anywhere except from a CAP member...



I have found it as well in members who are former military members. They will not let non-ex military joke, comment or opine.

Sorry Shuman!

[Dousing my head and back with lots and lots of oil so the responses I will get do fly off my back...]

 >:D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:53:58 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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SarDragon
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« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2017, 02:02:51 PM »

Are we done here?

Yup, thought so.

Click.
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Dave Bowles
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Officer Shoulder Boards
 


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