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April 25, 2017, 04:27:47 PM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
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Author Topic: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport  (Read 1695 times)
NIN
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Posts: 4,431
Unit: of issue

« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2017, 07:23:39 PM »

I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339

« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2017, 11:34:01 PM »

I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."

Good question.  "See what we expect to see..."?  Or???  Regardless, there are lessons herein for all.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,363

« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 11:49:53 PM »

Easy...

Mistook the runway for the taxiway, and the taxiway for the runway... A very wide taxiway beside a narrow runway...

 >:D
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PHall
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Posts: 5,605

« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2017, 01:47:30 AM »

There are two runways at Orange County-John Wayne Airport (SNA), 19L which is 2887 x 75 feet and is normally the General Aviation runway and 19R which is 5700 x 150 feet and is the runway used by the airliners. Taxiway Charlie is located between 19L and the ramp.
Now, which runway was Mr Ford cleared to land on?
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,363

« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2017, 02:03:53 AM »

Eclipse's message states it was 20-L.

See the airport diagram here. https://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/current/SW-3/sna_airport_diagram.pdf?_ga=1.61378988.1491826351.1487915680

I am not sure what map are you reading that from, but 20-L and 20-R run Northeast-Southwest on this map dated Feb 2017 to March 2017. There is no mention of a 19-L or 19-R. The runway lengths do conform to the lengths you mention. Since the differences are about 10 degrees, could it be possible the source you are using is outdated, and the runways as reported in your source were using an older designation?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 02:10:12 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2017, 02:20:52 AM »

This article on The Orange County Register states the airport had to renumber runways in 2013 because of a shift in the Earth's magnetic north. They were originally numbered in 1965.

See http://www.ocregister.com/articles/airport-537855-runway-degrees.html
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 02:31:53 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2017, 02:36:19 AM »

In retrospect I think that maybe I should have sent my last two messages on this thread as a PM so I apologize to all.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2017, 09:47:28 AM »

One of the news reports showed video of the approach and the runway markings were not clear on 20L, as in the paint was seriously faded away. With the right lighting conditions, who knows what the pilot thought he was looking at.

Anyone here familiar with that approach?
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FlyNavy
Recruit

Posts: 16
Unit: SWR-OK-001

Oklahoma Wing
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2017, 07:22:45 PM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339

« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 01:13:01 AM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.
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PHall
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 09:39:52 PM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.

Mr Ford is not the first person landing at John Wayne to do this and he sure isn't the last person to do it.
But because he's a celeb and TMZ made a big deal about it, we're talking about it here.
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339

« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »

In September 2007 the FAA/DOT published TEchnical Note TN07/54, titled "Identification Techniques to Reduce Confusion Between Taxiways and Adjacent Runways".  Appebdix B is very interesting.  It provides dates and numbers of incedents where aircraft landed on taxiways for 110 towered US airports.  In all, 267 incidents are recorded.  Most were likely in crewed aircraft.  A brief Google exercise revealed quite a few airliners crewed by professional pilots, employing state of the art navigation equipment and CRM that none-the-less failed to differentiate runways from taxiways.  See: 

http://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/DesktopModules/FlexNews/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=f49f5132-11f1-47ff-9f5b-68246581b4c5&f=TN07-54.pdf

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/29/plane-lands-taxiway-instead-runway-seattle/78056520/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3378645/Passenger-plane-lands-TAXIWAY-instead-runway-fourth-incident-kind-Seattle-airport.html

http://www.statesboroherald.com/archives/762/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125816841453048137

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_1883

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10393744/korean-air-captain-admits-to-error-when-landing-on-taxiway

http://airlinegeeks.com/2016/01/05/how-is-it-possible-to-land-an-airliner-on-a-taxiway/

The FAA/DOT report doesn't absolve pilots, however it concludes that the root cause of the problem is "... that airport geometry is a major causal factor in all these incidents and should be eliminated in the early design phases of the airport."
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 01:39:55 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 01:07:56 AM »

Harrison Ford won't face discipline in landing mishap.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ford-taxiway-agreement-20170331-story.html

"A Federal Aviation Administration investigation concluded that no enforcement action was warranted in the incident.
The agency required only “awareness training,” which Ford has already completed."
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 09:22:09 PM »

I think the fact that he immediately owned up to his mistake, on the tower frequency no less, may have helped his case.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
 


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