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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport
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Author Topic: Harrison Ford in Near Miss With Passenger Plane at LA Airport  (Read 1696 times)
Eclipse
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« on: February 14, 2017, 06:36:25 PM »

It might be time to let Chewie drive...


"Actor Harrison Ford was involved in a potentially serious incident on Monday as he was piloting his private plane, a single engine Husky, NBC News has learned.

Ford, an experienced pilot who collects vintage planes, had been instructed to land on runway 20-L at John Wayne Airport in Orange County, California but
mistakenly aimed for a taxiway instead. His plane passed over the top of an American Airlines 737 loaded with 110 passengers and a six-person crew.

The passenger plane, AA flight 1546, managed to depart safely for Dallas just minutes after the incident.
Ford, 74, was captured on air traffic control recordings asking, "Was that airliner meant to be underneath me?"


http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/harrison-ford-has-incident-passenger-plane-airport-n720826

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4225082/Harrison-Ford-74-nearly-crashes-plane-AGAIN.html


Also the tires on your plane are comically large.
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MSG Mac
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Posts: 1,717
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 08:58:22 PM »

I see fines and a flight physical in his future.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Shawn W.
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2017, 12:07:14 AM »

Chewie get us out of here!
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 249
Unit: NY

« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2017, 10:14:32 AM »

Wasn't he also in some incident a year or two ago?
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Ozyilmaz, SSgt, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2017, 10:49:05 AM »

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19790.msg365189#msg365189
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2017, 12:10:58 PM »

Wasn't he also in some incident a year or two ago?

That was an engine failure, not a perceptual error.
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jhighman
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: GLR-OH-085

« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2017, 12:19:21 PM »

Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2017, 12:28:51 PM »

Maybe he thought he could hide on the side of the airliner until they dumped their garbage.



« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 12:37:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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NIN
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2017, 03:30:26 PM »

Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?

^^^ This right here is the real answer.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2017, 04:42:51 PM »


Also the tires on your plane are comically large.


I'm starting to see a pattern between you and airplane tires...perhaps they should be a color other than black?  >:D
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2017, 04:44:09 PM »

^ Seriously.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2017, 04:46:08 PM »

^ Seriously.


Meant to add " >:D " to the last post. Done now.
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339

« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 08:09:27 PM »

Let he (or she) who is totally blameless and innocent of ever a momentary lapse of attention cast stones.  I'm pretty sure some forum members know of one or more of CAP pilots who thoroughly screwed up (without witnesses who were willing to take it to the front page of national media).  IMHO, this is a 'teachable moment', not a rationale for pile on.  HF will likely have some conversations with the FAA, as he should.  And the lesson from his momentary inattention is...?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 08:18:38 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
PHall
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2017, 09:29:28 PM »


Also the tires on your plane are comically large.


I'm starting to see a pattern between you and airplane tires...perhaps they should be a color other than black?  >:D

Those are the standard "Tundra Tires" that this aircraft normally has. Nothing funny about them.
Unless you don't know what you're talking about.....
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2017, 10:09:20 PM »

Knowing what they are doesn't make then not comically large.

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Live2Learn
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Posts: 339

« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 12:32:47 AM »

This is a very thoughtful analysis of HF's mishap.  It might be a good read for those of us who are unfamiliar with that airport, or other recent incidents of a similar nature involving multi-pilot crewed transport category aircraft who mistook a taxiway for the runway at other airports.

http://www.mastery-flight-training.com/20170216-flying-lessons.pdf

Several useful and insightful observations are offered by this highly regarded Master CFII.
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PHall
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 12:39:34 AM »

Yeah, Mr Ford is going to be having a not so fun discussion over at the FSDO.
If he's lucky it will only be a 90 or 180 day suspension.
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♠SARKID♠
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 02:26:19 PM »

Fly casual.

Perhaps he was trying to keep his distance from that airliner but not LOOK like he was keeping his distance?

I lol'ed.
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Starbux
Recruit

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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2017, 01:01:41 AM »

Let he (or she) who is totally blameless and innocent of ever a momentary lapse of attention cast stones.  I'm pretty sure some forum members know of one or more of CAP pilots who thoroughly screwed up (without witnesses who were willing to take it to the front page of national media).  IMHO, this is a 'teachable moment', not a rationale for pile on.  HF will likely have some conversations with the FAA, as he should.  And the lesson from his momentary inattention is...?

You seem to be only one on here with the voice of reason.  I would echo your comments in this sense.  Mistakes happen and its not that there have not been our pilots who have not had their fair share of aviation incidents and mishaps.  We don't know all of the factors.  Like the article you posted we have no idea if of the causal factors.  Poor visibility and the runway losing contrast it is real easy to see where if the taxiway sticks out enough one could inadvertently line up with it.  At my main airport there are times when the taxi actually sticks out more than one of our main runways.  I always try to back up a visual with a precision approach if available.  This aircraft probably has no ILS.  Based off of the information the only thing I see him doing wrong was not initiating go around when there was an aircraft on what he would have perceived to be protruding on the active runway.  Of course where was the tower?  They did not happen notice an aircraft approaching the taxiway vs the runway? 

There are lot things people take for granted in human factors and flying.  We are creatures of habit, we know what we know.  Its things like this that affect maybe the fact that this airport with a lacking visible markings that make the runway discernible.  So yeah there are several factors and since none of us were there we can't really armchair quarterback this completely until there is more information.  As responsible aviators we should do what you said and take these as a learning point so we do not end up doing the same some day.
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UWONGO2
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2017, 07:17:34 PM »

A lot of outlets have posted this video of Ford's oops:



Not quite the "scare" that a lot of media outlets are continuing to report, but definitely a mistake for the veteran pilot.
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NIN
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2017, 07:23:39 PM »

I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339

« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2017, 11:34:01 PM »

I'm actually now a *little* more concerned. The "taxiway" wasn't the one I thought (bordered on two sides by grass) but rather one that basically is separated from the ramp by markings only and only has infield grass on one side..

How do you mistake that for a runway? "I thought it was a *really* wide runway, see..."

Good question.  "See what we expect to see..."?  Or???  Regardless, there are lessons herein for all.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 11:49:53 PM »

Easy...

Mistook the runway for the taxiway, and the taxiway for the runway... A very wide taxiway beside a narrow runway...

 >:D
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PHall
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« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2017, 01:47:30 AM »

There are two runways at Orange County-John Wayne Airport (SNA), 19L which is 2887 x 75 feet and is normally the General Aviation runway and 19R which is 5700 x 150 feet and is the runway used by the airliners. Taxiway Charlie is located between 19L and the ramp.
Now, which runway was Mr Ford cleared to land on?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2017, 02:03:53 AM »

Eclipse's message states it was 20-L.

See the airport diagram here. https://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/current/SW-3/sna_airport_diagram.pdf?_ga=1.61378988.1491826351.1487915680

I am not sure what map are you reading that from, but 20-L and 20-R run Northeast-Southwest on this map dated Feb 2017 to March 2017. There is no mention of a 19-L or 19-R. The runway lengths do conform to the lengths you mention. Since the differences are about 10 degrees, could it be possible the source you are using is outdated, and the runways as reported in your source were using an older designation?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 02:10:12 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2017, 02:20:52 AM »

This article on The Orange County Register states the airport had to renumber runways in 2013 because of a shift in the Earth's magnetic north. They were originally numbered in 1965.

See http://www.ocregister.com/articles/airport-537855-runway-degrees.html
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 02:31:53 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2017, 02:36:19 AM »

In retrospect I think that maybe I should have sent my last two messages on this thread as a PM so I apologize to all.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2017, 09:47:28 AM »

One of the news reports showed video of the approach and the runway markings were not clear on 20L, as in the paint was seriously faded away. With the right lighting conditions, who knows what the pilot thought he was looking at.

Anyone here familiar with that approach?
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FlyNavy
Recruit

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Oklahoma Wing
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2017, 07:22:45 PM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 01:13:01 AM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.
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PHall
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 09:39:52 PM »

Surprised this type of thing doesnt happen more often; I have seen some pretty bad markings at airports over the years.

The only reason this came to be "front page" news is likely (1) HF is a celeb...  and (2) it occurred at a towered airport.

Mr Ford is not the first person landing at John Wayne to do this and he sure isn't the last person to do it.
But because he's a celeb and TMZ made a big deal about it, we're talking about it here.
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 339

« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »

In September 2007 the FAA/DOT published TEchnical Note TN07/54, titled "Identification Techniques to Reduce Confusion Between Taxiways and Adjacent Runways".  Appebdix B is very interesting.  It provides dates and numbers of incedents where aircraft landed on taxiways for 110 towered US airports.  In all, 267 incidents are recorded.  Most were likely in crewed aircraft.  A brief Google exercise revealed quite a few airliners crewed by professional pilots, employing state of the art navigation equipment and CRM that none-the-less failed to differentiate runways from taxiways.  See: 

http://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/DesktopModules/FlexNews/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=f49f5132-11f1-47ff-9f5b-68246581b4c5&f=TN07-54.pdf

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/12/29/plane-lands-taxiway-instead-runway-seattle/78056520/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3378645/Passenger-plane-lands-TAXIWAY-instead-runway-fourth-incident-kind-Seattle-airport.html

http://www.statesboroherald.com/archives/762/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125816841453048137

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_1883

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10393744/korean-air-captain-admits-to-error-when-landing-on-taxiway

http://airlinegeeks.com/2016/01/05/how-is-it-possible-to-land-an-airliner-on-a-taxiway/

The FAA/DOT report doesn't absolve pilots, however it concludes that the root cause of the problem is "... that airport geometry is a major causal factor in all these incidents and should be eliminated in the early design phases of the airport."
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 01:39:55 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 01:07:56 AM »

Harrison Ford won't face discipline in landing mishap.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ford-taxiway-agreement-20170331-story.html

"A Federal Aviation Administration investigation concluded that no enforcement action was warranted in the incident.
The agency required only “awareness training,” which Ford has already completed."
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PHall
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 09:22:09 PM »

I think the fact that he immediately owned up to his mistake, on the tower frequency no less, may have helped his case.
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