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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: NIMS Training
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Author Topic: NIMS Training  (Read 2655 times)
CAPDCCMOM
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Posts: 244

« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 07:18:54 PM »

CAP, the home of Death by PowerPoint
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,520

« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2017, 11:51:01 PM »

UWONGO,

The OP is asking, and the thread of this was that CAP is NOT certifying IS-100, IS-200, and IS-700 if taught by CAP members. The issue were not certifying IS-300 or IS-400.

Like Eclipse points out, these are very different.
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etodd
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Posts: 846

« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2017, 11:52:18 PM »

CAP, the home of Death by PowerPoint

I always enjoy them because "Im THAT guy" who sits in the back and interrupts every slide with a story or question to get conversation going. Problem is that the instructor prepares a 1 hour slide show to fill a 1 hour slot. So add me in the mix and he only gets halfway thru .... but no one falls asleep.
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,608

« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2017, 12:15:40 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,520

« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 12:18:42 AM »

etodd, that sounds to me like the little kid that when the teacher is giving a lesson puts his hand in the path of the projector light. Or other things.

 ???

I was giving a class last Friday and had two boys repeatedly jumping up on cushions. Another was rubbing his hand on the cushions to make a fart-like sound... And when I sat them at a table one of them started making faces at me every time I turned my back!

 ;D
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SARDOC
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Posts: 1,430

« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2017, 12:35:05 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

I'm interested as a noted earlier in this
CAPNHQ & FEMA just approved and completed a trial run of ICS 300 and ICS 400 being taught by CAP instructors. There is a test for each in LMS (although the links are there, I don't think you can take the test until the instructor approves you).

When everything is said and done, you get a certificate of completion signed by the national commander. If the argument here is that CAP can't teach FEMA classes, it appears FEMA and CAP have said it's OK.
CAP has said okay, says so on the website and is adopted by reference in 60-3.  What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard. 
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,608

« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2017, 12:38:18 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SARDOC
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Posts: 1,430

« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 12:38:53 AM »

This thread got me wondering what was in those courses. I passed 100, 200 and 700 about a year ago. Took the courses online. But now a year later remember virtually none of it. Guess I should go back and review some of the materials. It's one of those, use it or lose it, things.  The main thing I remember that stood out was for me to be sure and check in at an event, do what I'm told to do, and then be sure to check out and return any materials used. LOL

Good for you, review is always recommended.  Like anything.   If you intend on attending 300/400 in the future...those tests have questions that come from some of the prerequisite classes.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 12:45:24 AM »

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.

No, I agree.  It's really important to have 300/400 classes open to the public.  I list mine as open to the public on the state website.  I've had EMS/Fire/Police/FBI/Hospitals/Utility company/SAR (Not CAP) etc..all come to the class.  It's supposed to be that way.  As far as I know, My coinstructor and I are the only ones in the state that teach it on weekends, making it popular among volunteer types who can't always take off from work to attend a class.  On occassion, We've had to limit it because of our classroom size.  First Come First serve.  I announce it to CAP folks before the state makes the class announcement, so that I can make sure some of our people can get in the class before the quota is full. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2017, 12:47:10 AM »

What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard.

Why is that important?

If you're qualified and authorized to teach the classes, why is it important that it says CAP on the cert?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 08:45:05 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Storm Chaser
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2017, 08:40:40 AM »

I read CAPR 60-3 and the NIMS page in the CAPMembers.com website and couldn't find anything saying that CAP will issue a certificate of completion for any of the NIMS/ICS courses.

If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it?

Because you CAN teach the class. But in order for a member to get a certificate for IS-100, 200, 700, or 800, the member MUST take the online test, which is separate from the training (you can do one without the other).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2017, 08:45:28 AM »

Wow. A nuance we all missed.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SARDOC
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2017, 10:16:40 PM »

What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard.

Why is that important?

If you're qualified and authorized to teach the classes, why is it important that it says CAP on the cert?

The Directive for the classes to be taught says that the Agency hosting the class provide a certificate to the student.  This is the student's documentation that they completed the training.  The certificate has the Agency Name, When, Where, Course (Standard), Signature, etc.

If FEMA wants to validate the authenticity of the Certificate they can reach out to the correct agency for validation.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2017, 10:34:28 PM »

I read CAPR 60-3 and the NIMS page in the CAPMembers.com website and couldn't find anything saying that CAP will issue a certificate of completion for any of the NIMS/ICS courses.

If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it?

Because you CAN teach the class. But in order for a member to get a certificate for IS-100, 200, 700, or 800, the member MUST take the online test, which is separate from the training (you can do one without the other).

That is something that I had not focused on either.  Under my state instructions for hosting the class, I have a requirement to be able to provide a paper test available at the site.   The Instructor expectations outlined as a Sponsored Instructor don't jive with the instructions for these courses in particular.

It Looks like for test security reasons FEMA doesn't include a paper test for these courses in the materials.  I know they don't take the mail in rosters anymore.  It looks like my state instructor handbook needs to be changed and that FEMA may actually require the online test. I'm just not sure how to reconcile between them.

It looks like I need to punt this back again to my state program manager. 

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SARDOC
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2017, 10:37:01 PM »

And just a plug to the CAPTALK Community...this is why we have discussions like this.  It's not supposed to be mob rule, but a problem solving working group.  Thanks for your help.

I'll try to post a resolution if I can ever get one.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2017, 10:47:40 PM »

That is something that I had not focused on either.  Under my state instructions for hosting the class, I have a requirement to be able to provide a paper test available at the site.   The Instructor expectations outlined as a Sponsored Instructor don't jive with the instructions for these courses in particular.

It Looks like for test security reasons FEMA doesn't include a paper test for these courses in the materials.  I know they don't take the mail in rosters anymore.  It looks like my state instructor handbook needs to be changed and that FEMA may actually require the online test. I'm just not sure how to reconcile between them.

It looks like I need to punt this back again to my state program manager.

I think that from a CAP perspective you are focusing way too much on being able to certify participation yourself.

Your issues with other agencies, notwithstanding if you have the ability to teach the class, teach it, and then CAP members
can take the test online.

Heck, >I< anyone can teach the class, with FEMA providing it's own verification of compliance.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SARDOC
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Posts: 1,430

« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2017, 11:05:02 PM »

I think that from a CAP perspective you are focusing way too much on being able to certify participation yourself.

Your issues with other agencies, notwithstanding if you have the ability to teach the class, teach it, and then CAP members
can take the test online.

Heck, >I< anyone can teach the class, with FEMA providing it's own verification of compliance.

I was trying to do that.  That was the expectation provided through my state instructor expectations guide and the direct feedback from my state agency.

So the disconnect is there and mea culpa.  I was making strides towards meeting the state expectations as one of their sponsored instructors and not identifying that the state's criteria can't be applied to these courses.  It's never been caught probably because most agencies are using the FEMA option.

That's why above I was trying to say it was my preference to use the FEMA option but I've had multiple requests do this and there is conflicting guidance depending on which reference you read.
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Jaison009
Seasoned Member

Posts: 263
Unit: SW-AR-040

« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 11:19:31 PM »

1000% agree on the collaboration and cooperation of multiple agencies in 300/400 and your comment on in-house instruction Spaceman. I have had this same conversation numerous times about ICS training with both my roles in CAP and my real job in ARC.

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.
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CAPLTC
Member

Posts: 57
Unit: MER

« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2017, 08:35:15 PM »

Lacking a cadre of instructors, minus those of us who came to CAP with the ability to teach these, I do not see how CAP could self-certify.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: NIMS Training
 


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