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SMWOG
Member

Posts: 83
Unit: NER NY

« on: February 04, 2017, 10:28:16 PM »

So if you have been awarded to CSA ribbon and have it maxed out with silver clasps, if you get the award again, do you wear another ribbon?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2017, 10:34:37 PM »

Yes.  Just like any other decoration where the number awarded exceeds the max that can be displayed as one.

However it isn't required, for cadets or seniors now that everyone can short stack.
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SMWOG
Member

Posts: 83
Unit: NER NY

« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2017, 10:38:05 PM »

Thanks! 

Now for short stacking, can you pick the ribbons or is it like the highest three?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2017, 11:12:36 PM »

CAPM 39-1, Page 112
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

"11.1.1.1.1. Officers and NCOs. On the USAF-style uniforms, all ribbons, badges,
and devices worn by adult members must fall below the top notch of the collar on the service coat or the
bottom tip of the collar of shirts/blouses when those are worn without a service coat. Individuals may
choose which ribbons to eliminate to meet this requirement
, but are encouraged to initially remove CAP
professional development ribbons to reach the required height. (Note, CAP aviation and chaplain badges
remain mandatory for wear on USAF-style uniforms and ribbons may need to be removed to meet this
requirement.) "


"11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon
. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn. "
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,431

« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2017, 11:59:52 PM »

Quote

...are encouraged to initially remove CAP professional development ribbons...


Why the choice? Why not the lowest awards? Or keep awards of their choice???

Is it because the PD awards are indicated mostly by the grade attained?

 ???
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 12:36:35 AM »

^ Probably, but the regs allow for full choice.

By the time you get to the point of short-stacking, membership, red-service, and leadership start to be
somewhat less exciting then your first couple years, same for Yeager.

I'm more interested in highest PD, meritorious awards, and operational ones when I read a rack.

Where you been?  What you done?  Does anybody think you are special?
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EMT-83
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2017, 11:21:10 AM »

Honestly, what would be the point of loading up a rack with CSAs?
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Gunsotsu
Recruit

Posts: 20

« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2017, 03:38:17 PM »

Quote
Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar...

BWAHAHAHAHA! Cadets removing ribbons. That's rich.
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AlphaSigOU
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Unit: SER-AL-001

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 04:54:05 PM »

If I may steer you to this resource, this should answer your questions about the proper wear of CAP ribbons: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3179.0
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
One of three of CAP's active senior members on Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands!
(Don't ask me about forming an overseas squadron here... ain't gonna happen!)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040
AlphaSigOU
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The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2017, 04:59:42 PM »

Thanks! 

Now for short stacking, can you pick the ribbons or is it like the highest three?


My preference on the shirt (whether AF blue or corporate white) is following the Navy's custom: a single row of your highest decorations or a stack of any nine decoration/service ribbons. I usually have three decorations on the top row, three PD ribbons in the middle row and three service ribbons in the bottom row.
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
One of three of CAP's active senior members on Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands!
(Don't ask me about forming an overseas squadron here... ain't gonna happen!)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 635

« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 06:32:06 PM »

Quote

...are encouraged to initially remove CAP professional development ribbons...


Why the choice? Why not the lowest awards? Or keep awards of their choice???

Is it because the PD awards are indicated mostly by the grade attained?

 ???

Also, you can't earn the Wilson award until you get the other levels so having those ribbons are a little redundant.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 12:08:13 AM »

Honestly, what would be the point of loading up a rack with CSAs?
Because you earned them?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 24

« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 12:33:30 AM »

If you have maxed out a second CSA ribbon, can you add a third one? Is there a regulation that prohibits adding a third one?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 12:49:12 AM »

The verbiage does not appear to allow for more then two of the same ribbon in those circumstances,
however it's probably one of those things NHQ didn't consider as it's so rare. Best to contact them
in that case.

CAPR 39-3, page 4-5
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf
"b. Subsequent awards of the same decoration or ribbon are denoted by the CAP bronze
triangular clasp, worn on the ribbon of the original award. A CAP silver triangular clasp is
equivalent to, and is worn in the place of, five bronze claps. Silver clasps are placed to the wearer’s
right side of a bronze clasp. A maximum of four devices may be worn on any ribbon, unless
otherwise stated in this regulation. When the number of devices exceeds the authorized maximum, a
second ribbon is worn to the wearer’s left of the initial ribbon. The second ribbon counts as one
subsequent award. When future awards reduce the devices to a single ribbon the second ribbon will
be removed. Devices are illustrated in Attachment 3."


With that said, and without intending to raise the argument again about "what" is considered
community service, anyone clocking more then 2500 CSA hours in a typical CAP career is probably
getting a pretty liberal interpretation of what is acceptable, or they are just swinging by CAP
once every couple months to pick up their CSA, and not doing much for CAP.  I'd probably also be in the camp of
a 3rd ribbon being excessive, regardless of earning it or not.
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EMT-83
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Posts: 1,777

« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 07:34:13 AM »

Honestly, what would be the point of loading up a rack with CSAs?
Because you earned them?

You earned them outside of CAP, and they have absolutely nothing to do with the organization whose uniform they are worn on. The CSA is great to recognize a cadet who walked away from the computer or video console long enough to do some volunteer work, but multiple ribbons loaded with clasps? Ridiculous.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 07:55:47 AM »

Ridiculous or not thems the rules.

Point being.  Member X does the service hours, provides the documentation, he/she gets the ribbon.

If they are a cadet they don't have the option NOT to wear them.  Seniors can choose not wear them if they don't want to.

As for Eclipse's point....I will say a) that's an unsupported assertion that is not really fair.  b) If the assertion happens to be true....so what?  Nowhere in any of the regulations does it say you have to live and breath CAP to get the CSA.

While I will agree that encouraging outside community service may or may not be something CAP wants to encourage but that is outside the scope of the OP's question.

Bottom Line

If you have earned a ribbon you are entitled to wear them....and in the case of cadets are required to wear them.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 11:21:49 AM »

Quote
Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar...

BWAHAHAHAHA! Cadets removing ribbons. That's rich.


A number of our Cadet Officers and NCOs choose to short stack.
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Alaric
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Posts: 712

« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2017, 12:19:59 PM »

The verbiage does not appear to allow for more then two of the same ribbon in those circumstances,
however it's probably one of those things NHQ didn't consider as it's so rare. Best to contact them
in that case.

CAPR 39-3, page 4-5
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf
"b. Subsequent awards of the same decoration or ribbon are denoted by the CAP bronze
triangular clasp, worn on the ribbon of the original award. A CAP silver triangular clasp is
equivalent to, and is worn in the place of, five bronze claps. Silver clasps are placed to the wearer’s
right side of a bronze clasp. A maximum of four devices may be worn on any ribbon, unless
otherwise stated in this regulation. When the number of devices exceeds the authorized maximum, a
second ribbon is worn to the wearer’s left of the initial ribbon. The second ribbon counts as one
subsequent award. When future awards reduce the devices to a single ribbon the second ribbon will
be removed. Devices are illustrated in Attachment 3."


With that said, and without intending to raise the argument again about "what" is considered
community service, anyone clocking more then 2500 CSA hours in a typical CAP career is probably
getting a pretty liberal interpretation of what is acceptable, or they are just swinging by CAP
once every couple months to pick up their CSA, and not doing much for CAP.  I'd probably also be in the camp of
a 3rd ribbon being excessive, regardless of earning it or not.

Have to totally disagree with you Eclipse.  Remember that unless you are in a command position, or a staff member at a very active position, the average commitment for a senior member is 3 - 5 hours a week.  When I started in CAP I was doing at least 10 hours of volunteer service with the Red Cross and MRC a week in addition to attending my weekly meetings and working my regular job.  Had I not decided to do more in ES and Group/Wing staff and command, I probably still would.  That's a CSA every 6 weeks and 2500+ hours in about 5 years.  I have plenty of members in my squadrons who come regularly to meetings, attend the quarterly SAREX and attend needed PD events but they are more active (in terms of time commitment) in the VFD, the Red Cross, churches, little league, etc.  Most don't care to apply for the award, or get the initial ribbon and are content.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,767

« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2017, 02:07:01 PM »

If this "award" is apparently so easy to get, why is the bar for it so low? Double the hours required.
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Strup
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 02:08:45 PM »

If this "award" is apparently so easy to get, why is the bar for it so low? Double the hours required.


I don't know, what's 60 hours worth to you? I'd rather spend it with family/on CAP projects, rather than other organizations to get credit in CAP. But to each his own.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 03:09:03 PM »

If this "award" is apparently so easy to get, why is the bar for it so low? Double the hours required.


I don't know, what's 60 hours worth to you? I'd rather spend it with family/on CAP projects, rather than other organizations to get credit in CAP. But to each his own.

Concur. It just seems that if this is a true award, it should have some more meaty requirements attached to it.
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Strup
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kwe1009
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2017, 05:02:47 PM »

If this "award" is apparently so easy to get, why is the bar for it so low? Double the hours required.


I don't know, what's 60 hours worth to you? I'd rather spend it with family/on CAP projects, rather than other organizations to get credit in CAP. But to each his own.

Concur. It just seems that if this is a true award, it should have some more meaty requirements attached to it.

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 05:28:07 PM »

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.

Except the reasoning behind a military CSA, vs. CAP even having one, are different.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 635

« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 05:40:54 PM »

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.

Except the reasoning behind a military CSA, vs. CAP even having one, are different.

My point was that you really can't complain about the low mark to earn the CSA when there is no real threshold for a military member to earn the MOVSM.  Both recognize volunteer service outside of their respective organization. 

CAP encouraging volunteer service outside of CAP never really made sense to me.  How many other volunteer organizations encourage their volunteers to also go spend their time helping other volunteer activities and then recognize them for that effort?  Most volunteer organizations that I have been around spend their time getting people to give more time/money to them, not other organizations.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.

Except the reasoning behind a military CSA, vs. CAP even having one, are different.

My point was that you really can't complain about the low mark to earn the CSA when there is no real threshold for a military member to earn the MOVSM.  Both recognize volunteer service outside of their respective organization. 

CAP encouraging volunteer service outside of CAP never really made sense to me.  How many other volunteer organizations encourage their volunteers to also go spend their time helping other volunteer activities and then recognize them for that effort?  Most volunteer organizations that I have been around spend their time getting people to give more time/money to them, not other organizations.

Agreed. I love when the organization is wringing their collective hands over how hard it is to recruit, train and retain quality volunteers at the same time giving them an award for spending their time elsewhere. This is a participation trophy.
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2017, 06:06:09 PM »

+1 to both.  Unit CC's job is maintaining his unit's readiness and manning, not encouraging
participation elsewhere.

If people are active elsewhere, great, those organizations can, and likely do recognize them.

Does the ARC give awards for CAP service?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2017, 10:31:09 PM »

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.

Except the reasoning behind a military CSA, vs. CAP even having one, are different.
Nope.  They are both the same.   George Bush Sr. instituted the MOVSM as part of the Thousand Points of Light to encourage military people to volunteer outside of the military.   Exactly the same purpose as the CSA.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
lordmonar
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2017, 10:32:52 PM »

CAP encouraging volunteer service outside of CAP never really made sense to me.  How many other volunteer organizations encourage their volunteers to also go spend their time helping other volunteer activities and then recognize them for that effort?  Most volunteer organizations that I have been around spend their time getting people to give more time/money to them, not other organizations.
The Boy Scouts do.  In fact the Boy Scouts make it a requirement for progression in the program.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
lordmonar
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 10:39:32 PM »

+1 to both.  Unit CC's job is maintaining his unit's readiness and manning, not encouraging
participation elsewhere.

If people are active elsewhere, great, those organizations can, and likely do recognize them.

Does the ARC give awards for CAP service?
The Boy Scouts do.

Also.  Are you suggesting that the time it takes the PDO to process a CSA request is somehow jeopardizing a CC's ability to do his/her job?

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 10:59:15 PM »

Nope.  They are both the same.   George Bush Sr. instituted the MOVSM as part of the Thousand Points of Light to encourage military people to volunteer outside of the military.   Exactly the same purpose as the CSA.

You missed the point this time, as you do every other time we've had this argument.

The military is not a "community service organization" in and of itself, it's an employer.  CAP is not an employer, it is a community service organization in and of itself.
That is not the same thing, nor is the motivation behind the awards the same.  The military is looking to build well-rounded people who do things outside their day jobs, and
also as PR.  If you're in CAP, you're already doing that, by definition.

The Boy Scouts do.

Apples and hand grenades.   The BSA's role is literally community outreach - while not comparable
on anything but the most superficial level, when a Scout receives an award related to CS, its not a "CS Award"
per se, its one badge or another as part of their progression, since that's really all they do.  For example
Eagle require a service project" - the result is supposed to be a "service to the community", but it's not "community service"
in the way we are discussing (i.e. extracurricular to the primary mission).

Also, the BSA does not has a retention issue, nor do they have an adult program, nor is their mission the same.

I use the ARC example because on the mean, especially for adults, they are much more comparable - a partially Federally funded
organizaiton that has a real-world mission which is primarily executed by adults, and they don't encourage participation
in other organizations by handing out trophies for all the times you weren't in an ARC golf shirt and vest.

The CSA is and always has been, one of any number of areas where CAP is assuming an affectation of military life
without considering the the actual bottom line consequences of same - that it's either irrelevant to CAP and therefore
ribbon trolling, or actually a detriment because it takes people away from CAP service, which >AGAIN< is 100% community service
when viewed through the same lens.

We should give CAP members CAP awards for CAP service, and leave others to do the same with their organizations.
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Alaric
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2017, 11:53:42 AM »

That is more meat than what is attached to the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  The criteria for that is completely up to individual commanders unless a HHQ defines it.

Except the reasoning behind a military CSA, vs. CAP even having one, are different.

My point was that you really can't complain about the low mark to earn the CSA when there is no real threshold for a military member to earn the MOVSM.  Both recognize volunteer service outside of their respective organization. 

CAP encouraging volunteer service outside of CAP never really made sense to me.  How many other volunteer organizations encourage their volunteers to also go spend their time helping other volunteer activities and then recognize them for that effort?  Most volunteer organizations that I have been around spend their time getting people to give more time/money to them, not other organizations.

Agreed. I love when the organization is wringing their collective hands over how hard it is to recruit, train and retain quality volunteers at the same time giving them an award for spending their time elsewhere. This is a participation trophy.

Many ribbons are participation trophies.  I have also never understood the "tragedy" we are experiencing with recruiting and retention.  We don't have a steady, active mission.  For many members the whole of their participation will be meetings, perhaps a monthly weekend event, and a conference every couple of years.  Even those who are active in ES are not consistently busy.  I've been on perhaps 6 actual mission in 6 years, the rest have been training.  Unlike for instance the CG Aux we are not called upon to support the Air Force on a day to day basis and therefore we don't occupy a lot of our peoples time.  People get bored training and never using the skills they learn; other organizations meet their needs better; or life just happens.  I'd rather have 25000 members who were interested and active then 50000 on the rolls with half of them either largely absent or wasting time arguing about uniforms  :) or whining how they never get to do anything because its too far away.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2017, 12:35:41 PM »

The problem is that at just about every level, CAP sells the "sizzle" and not the "steak", and then new members find out
that there is no steak and the sizzle was on loan from another wing.

Frankly, the apocalyptic world necessary to sustain the number of missions you'd need to satisfy a lot of people would,
in and of itself, negate the existence of organized government.  I don't think a lot of people really understand just how
lucky we are in this country that we don't have weekly Noah-level flooding, planes falling from the sky on a regular
basis, and mass casualties as a routine way of life.

Thank whatever deity you recognize RIGHT NOW this is not our reality.

The drudgery of training and maintaining a fighting or response force is what CAP is about day-to-day - recruiting,
initial quals, re-quals, reporting readiness, blah.  Blah.  Blah.  Everyone wants to have a sweet go-bag they can show their
friends on Twitbook, but far fewer want to accept that some professional responders train their whole lives and never get an
actual, and are quite happy about that, because actuals mean someone is in distress, or has had loss.

I call it the "EMS Paradox®".

Cadet life is similar - weeks of academics and "Marching up and down the Sqauy-A", followed by the occasional
award, accomplishment, or advancement (and maybe accidentally, a little fun).  Cadets love the bling and the fun,
less so the academics on top of the rest of their already crowded world.  For many, like me, the teamwork,
camaraderie, and brotherhood (including the ladies), of full-court press efforts of people working together towards a common goal
makes the down times worth it, but the key word there is "work", not a thing many people want to do these days on their off time -
too busy swiping left and / or saving the world by "liking" a cause while the Tivo fast-forwards a commercial.

FWIW, I have always insisted that my people be clear with potential cadets, adults, and parents about the reality of
CAP.  It's all there for the taking, but reaching it is work.   I've had more then a few people quit during my time, but
no one has left saying "You didn't tell us..." or "This isn't what we bargained for...".

That's the only way CAP is going to fix the churn, less sizzle and more steak - people want the steak, and they don't mind working for it.
Unfortunately, CAP is already so far down the road, that the fix, like most fire-fighting, is going to require some destruction and
further attrition before things are righted.

The sooner the better, and the longer it waits, the more things burn.

"EMS Paradox®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!
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