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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 555

« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2017, 10:25:06 AM »

Has anyone had an older cadet attend their first encampment as an 18+ year old?  Any issues with it?

I've had a couple of 18 year olds attend their first encampment.  Some had no issues others struggled with 14/15 year olds ordering them around.  The advice I give them all is to remember that while they may be more mature and an "adult" compared to their flight commander or flight sergeant, those cadets have more CAP experience and the best course of action would be for them to all work together.  The flight cc/sgt can benefit from the 18 yr old's maturity and the 18 yr old can benefit from the flight cs/sgt's CAP experience.
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Toad1168
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Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2017, 01:26:00 PM »

I think he wants to be a senior, because he maybe thinking, he can be in charge of the same cadet leaders. Think he is one of those guy doesn't want to accept orders from younger cadets.
  My advice is to stay as cadet and work hard to get your Mitchell.  You will related better with cadets, where as if you turn senior member you will be in a place were cadets won't approach you because your status and some seniors won't respect you because your lack of experience and matured.

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My line of thought as well.  I have had reservations with allowing these SMs to be in direct supervision of cadets.  First, the age difference is not that great.  And while they may be a SM, and technically an adult, many times the maturity has not yet developed and end up with some borderline CPP issues.  Secondly, the experience.  They have not progressed far enough in the Cadet Program to gain the knowledge and have not started the PD for a SM. 
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Capt. Mike Toedebusch, CAP
Spaatz Award 1168 - 1 June 1993
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 01:33:56 PM »

We've had 17 and 18 year old in flights as students to no real issues other then the
occasional humorous size disparity.

In those cases an extra eye is kept, some segregation of age is done during hygiene and
personal times, but I would say on the mean 18 year olds putting themselves in that position
have a goal of one kind or another and "get it".  Proper filtering by local CC's helps with this as well.

As to young FO's, or even young / new SM's for that matter, you pair them with an experienced TO and
things are fine, making sure attitude and vector adjustments are made immediately and properly when necessary.

My personal advice to the OP would be to consider long and hard about closing the cadet door - there are experiences
which are simply not open, nor imitable, once you cross the border, there's just no other way to state that.

The experience of an older, mature cadet in the right environment won't generally be as much fun, nor rewarding,
as being a very young senior member asked to do things you may not be prepared for (in CAP or real life).
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 01:52:04 PM »

More importantly, assuming the cadet-turned-SM expects to work with cadets...time away/apart is really invaluable. 3-4 years, typically enough time to cycle through known cadets is a good time.
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DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 62

« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 02:52:15 PM »

If I were you I'd stay a cadet for a while.  I had never heard of the CAP until I was already in my 20s and didn't join until my work schedule allowed me to in my 30s.  As someone who was never a cadet, I have difficulty relating to what the cadets do and know very little about the cadet side.  Staying in a bit longer and working through the program to an officer position will allow you to learn more about that side of things and allow you to better relate to cadets when you do go over to senior.  The cadets will also know that you were once in their position and you'll be able to provide a lot more practical advice than a senior who has never what they are doing would ever be able to offer.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 788

« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 03:17:46 PM »

I think he wants to be a senior, because he maybe thinking, he can be in charge of the same cadet leaders. Think he is one of those guy doesn't want to accept orders from younger cadets.
  My advice is to stay as cadet and work hard to get your Mitchell.  You will related better with cadets, where as if you turn senior member you will be in a place were cadets won't approach you because your status and some seniors won't respect you because your lack of experience and matured.

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Curious as to what the basis for this assumption is


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LATORRECA
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Posts: 142
Unit: NHQ-119

« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 03:26:47 PM »

I had a cadet once 17 Years old (high school, jrotc) and he wasn't a fan of been told what to do by another much younger cadet. As soon he turn 18, he stay as cadet until I move to another station. Eventually, I found out he move to become a SM and because his lack of maturity and power trip issues he was sort of force out by the dcc and leadership officer
  First hand experience.

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LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 142
Unit: NHQ-119

« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 03:28:19 PM »

Prefer to loose one member than several others because of the one.

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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 788

« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »

I had a cadet once 17 Years old (high school, jrotc) and he wasn't a fan of been told what to do by another much younger cadet. As soon he turn 18, he stay as cadet until I move to another station. Eventually, I found out he move to become a SM and because his lack of maturity and power trip issues he was sort of force out by the CDC (FTFY) and leadership officer
  First hand experience.

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I get that; past experience may give you an idea that this could be the same circumstance here. But I don't think C/ Rodriguez gave any indication of that in his post.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2017, 01:34:03 AM »

Has anyone had an older cadet attend their first encampment as an 18+ year old?  Any issues with it?

I've seen it happen plenty of times. They toughed it out, got their tickets punched. No issues.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 788

« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2017, 06:18:01 PM »

More importantly, assuming the cadet-turned-SM expects to work with cadets...time away/apart is really invaluable. 3-4 years, typically enough time to cycle through known cadets is a good time.

I can't stress this enough. I see way too many former cadets who know people in the cadet program and work right alongside them. You'll always have those senior member parents whose kids are cadets in the program, but 18-year-old Jimmy who just became a Flight Officer shouldn't be a member of the Cadet Program staff when his little brother Johnny is in the flight.

But, I digress, that was not the intention of this post.
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Jaison009
Seasoned Member

Posts: 259
Unit: SW-AR-040

« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2017, 12:14:20 AM »

What is your reasoning for wanting to make the switch if you do not mind me asking? If you do not want to share that is perfectly okay too. I stayed a cadet from 13 until 20 due to the fact that there was nothing I really wanted to do as a SM that I was not doing as a cadet. I also took the time to work towards my third diamond and finish ECI 13. I also decided that if I was going to be a SM, I was not going to work with CP to maintain a separation then college and my career provided a lengthy separation. As others have indicated there are sometimes challenges going over from a cadet especially during the years you will be serving as a FO/TFO/SFO. This is especially true if you have close and meaningful relationships with fellow cadets.

My personal advice is to always stay a cadet as long as you can, get your Mitchell or above unless there is something you would like to do that you cannot do as a cadet (serving as a mission aircrew member or adult GTL for example).

I recently turned 18 and would like to switch from being a cadet to a FO.
What is required to do so? Testing, applications, etc.
Thank you for any help and information.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 08:27:23 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.
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Toad1168
Member

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Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 10:32:40 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.

I can appreciate this argument.  But having been a cadet that stayed a cadet until just shy of 21, thee are benefits.  I was a senior cadet and would not have earned my Spaatz if I was forced to transition at 18.  The majority of those older cadets as I have seen are advanced in the program.  Also, given that, many are working for higher command echelons as opposed to being just at the squadron level.  They tend to be a resource and motivating factor for the younger cadets.

 
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Capt. Mike Toedebusch, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 10:45:55 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.

I generally agree with the idea, if for no other reason then it would bring some closure to the loop of the program's logic, as well as putting more emphasis on the clock ticking
for cadets with Spaatz on their mind, but I think the execution would cause other unintended consequences including significant attrition.

The presumption is that these former cadets can be valuable because they "get" CAP, when in many cases their exposure to what it actually takes to
run the mission, vs. being the mission is pretty limited, and coupled with their general lack of life experience, due primarily to their lack of "life",
limits how much they can do without direct guidance and mentoring at a much higher level then the average adult (i.e. people who don't spend the GDP of a small
country on car insurance).

Also, under 25, the average person's attention is focused on finishing school, career (or lack thereof), starting a family, or all the other "real things" the universe has in store,
leaving limited time for something like CAP.  If they are active enough as a cadet at 18 to really contribute, then they'd be better served staying a cadet,
partaking of things like NCSAs, encampment staff, and mentoring their peers then trying to integrate with the senior members in a world they haven't merged with yet.

Since people like to compare CAP with the BSA, you can look there for an example what has shown to work in a similar transition.

Under 18, the only staff job open to a Scout is "Assistant Scoutmaster" and all activities must be supervised by at least one person who is 12 or older. 
All overnight activities must be supervised by two adults 21 years or older.  So Scouts over 18 are generally considered to be in the "Leadership" but
are never the "Leaders".  They can assist with supervision, but are never the sole supervisors.  This has seemed to work quite well in that it allows
older Scouts to begin to learn to be leaders and managers while still acknowledging their "non-adult" status.

(Granted the environment is much more lax in regards to protocol. Respect is expected, but there are no courtesies, per se, and the duties and activities
of a Scout vs. Scout Leader are nearly identical other then the supervision and planning aspect.) 

Perhaps it is time CAP looked at a similar situation for Flight Officers, and make that a legitimate status between "Cadet" and "Senior".

Why not allow Flight Officers who were cadets to continue to pursue the Achievements and Milestones up to and including Spaatz
until they are 21?  Grade need not be tied to achievement in these cases - it already isn't in Phase III/IV anyway, so not much change there.
This would solve any number of problems, probably increase retention, and still recognize the transitional nature of the 18-21 year age range. 
Things could be left as-is for cadets under 18, with the option at 18 change, or perhaps simply make the transition mandatory at 18.

A member's ability to supervise (or not), could / would be based on their age and completing CPPT, not their grade or status (cadet / senior).

I'd also include the ability to allow Flight Officers who were former cadets to serve on encampment and NCSA staff or as participants,
and be eligible for most scholarships.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,061

« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 01:42:44 PM »

The presumption is that these former cadets can be valuable because they "get" CAP, when in many cases their exposure to what it actually takes to
run the mission, vs. being the mission is pretty limited, and coupled with their general lack of life experience, due primarily to their lack of "life",
limits how much they can do without direct guidance and mentoring at a much higher level then the average adult (i.e. people who don't spend the GDP of a small
country on car insurance).

Also, under 25, the average person's attention is focused on finishing school, career (or lack thereof), starting a family, or all the other "real things" the universe has in store,
leaving limited time for something like CAP.  If they are active enough as a cadet at 18 to really contribute, then they'd be better served staying a cadet,
partaking of things like NCSAs, encampment staff, and mentoring their peers then trying to integrate with the senior members in a world they haven't merged with yet.

Generally concur.

Quote
Why not allow Flight Officers who were cadets to continue to pursue the Achievements and Milestones up to and including Spaatz
until they are 21?  Grade need not be tied to achievement in these cases - it already isn't in Phase III/IV anyway, so not much change there.
This would solve any number of problems, probably increase retention, and still recognize the transitional nature of the 18-21 year age range. 
Things could be left as-is for cadets under 18, with the option at 18 change, or perhaps simply make the transition mandatory at 18.

A member's ability to supervise (or not), could / would be based on their age and completing CPPT, not their grade or status (cadet / senior).

I'd also include the ability to allow Flight Officers who were former cadets to serve on encampment and NCSA staff or as participants,
and be eligible for most scholarships.

We've tried that a couple times, of course.  Both the Advanced Cadet Transition(ACT)  and the Senior Transition Program (STP) were put in place with basically the same good intentions, and both failed for lack of participation.  Even when the former cadets in the programs could test for the Spaatz, remained eligible for scholarships, IACE, and other NCSAs.  The programs failed mostly because there is simply no significant upside to cadets to make the transition, and some significant downsides (lack of ability to participate as higher-level staff at encampments, region and national CACs, etc..)

Sure, a few cadets benefitted.  My lovely spouse earned her Spaatz in the ACT.  There were some timing issues involved in military deployments that made it to her advantage to participate in the program.  But experience has shown that there are relatively few cadets in that kind of fact-specific situation.  And cadets - then and now - always retain the option to turn senior after their 18th birthday if they are willing to accept the reduction in class and prestige.   8)

We've certainly had the discussion about whether to end the cadet program at less than the 21 years of age limit put in place by Spaatz, Curry, and LaGuardia many times here on CT.  But it tends to bog down when we try to figure out exactly what "problem" we are trying to solve by modifying the maximum age that has been in place for 75 years.

Ned Lee
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GaryVC
Member

Posts: 79
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2017, 05:49:50 PM »

I for one am glad I could stay a cadet after 18. I joined at 16 and received my Mitchell a month after I turned 18. I stayed a cadet until I was 21+ (according to when NHQ says I became a SM, it was several months later when my cadet membership expired). During that time I progressed from C/WO to C/Lt Col, went on a special activity, was on cadet staff at an encampment, etc.
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RogueLeader
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Posts: 3,624
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2017, 07:37:23 PM »

Within the past couple of months, Wyoming Wing has had, not ONE but TWO Spaatz Cadets.  Both that are past 18, and one is almost 21 IIRC.

Wyoming Wing hasn't had, unfortunately, a Spaatz Cadet since 1984.  (I was close and had one test in 2013.)
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GRW 3340
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,581

« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2017, 09:32:46 PM »

Spaatz Cadets who are under the age of 18 are fairly rare.
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Hyperion
Recruit

Posts: 33

« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 02:31:53 AM »

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless.

I have helped quite a few young Flight Officers during the past two years as my unit is located next to a large university and the program has done absolutely nothing to help them. Their ranks are too confusing to everyone to understand or care about. In fact, a large population of our own organization still considers them to be cadets! Air Force personnel are also annoyed at our detachment from the proper Air Force ranks and insignia and I have dealt with quite a few servicemembers come to me looking for help on how to deal with "those people" in my unit. Even worse is that our own National Headquarters does not even bother to confirm the Flight Officer ranks in eServices or on the ID card! And to top it off, there are some required uniform items that Vanguard does not even sell because the Flight Officer ranks are so rare that it is not worth it for them to stock the materials. (Random tangent: SMWOG are NOT authorized to wear the Mess Dress uniform, but Flight Officers can. Who, as a Flight Officer, has a Mess Dress before 21 years old, and why can a teenager get one but an adult, who may have been a loyal member for years, is barred from wearing one but not any other Air Force uniform?)

Hell, Flight Officers used to be the only ranks where you could can get DEMOTED because of your age. (This was not too long ago when it took 3 months to make Flight Officer.) If you were a Flight Officer and turned 21 but did not have the TIG for 2d Lt, you went back to being a SMWOG. One day you are above them in rank and uniform--along with being allowed to wearing the Mess Dress--but the next morning after your birthday you required strip your uniform, lose your salutes, and give up your Mess Dress for a while. (This has happened twice at my unit, much to frustration of the Flight Officers.) This is an example of how asinine and arbitrary the Flight Officer ranks have become and what "fixes" are being added to try and keep it relevant. This is a waste of time and resources while adding more useless regulations to fill a bloated organization. Flight Officers are also the only ranks where you will be unable to physically advance to the top of the program if you joined day one of eligibility: the new TIG between ranks makes it so a day one 18 year old WILL NOT have enough TIG to reach SFO before aging out. Why do we have a program that discriminates based on age?

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless. They have no value in our organization and waste everyone's time and money. They are a solution to a non-existent problem within CAP.

Do not replace the Flight Officer ranks, just remove them. Any senior member who joins before the age of 21 is merely a SMWOG. Done. Easy. This way you have to sit back and learn more of the organization while growing up as a new adult and observe how things are run. Those years as a new SMWOG will allow you avoid any rank drama or headache while giving you an opportunity to work on professional development and qualifications until you are ready for the officer ranks. Those years will also allow new members to grow in maturity and understanding of our senior program before assuming any command.

Continue to allow cadets to stay until 21. Continue to allow seniors to join at 18. Hell, you could make that in-between transition people are talking about where you can do both cadet and senior PD to entice new converts, if desired. However, at the end of the day, we need to remove the Flight Officer ranks in their entirety. Let us help make our organization run more smoothly, logically, and professionally. Remove the Flight Officer ranks.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
 


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