Seniors and Cadets wearing Sage Green Boots

[capsr]

Over the past few months I had to correct this issue on several occasions. First had a Chaplain visit the squadron (CAP Captain) shows up in the ABU's with his sage green boots. I pulled him to the side and spoke to him and he goes on tell me his squadron commander (at a large AF Base) authorized it because CAP members keep getting yelled at on the base by Active Army and Air Force members to include one getting detained at SF because they didn't know the uniform rules and thought the member was impersonating an officer. He said from behind they think the younger CAP members are AD Air Force and yell at them for the boots.

A cadet in my squadron comes in with them on and claims he can't afford any boots and got them free from the base Airman's Attic. We ended up buying some online from Amazon for him.

At an Air Show on Miramar Marine base ran into another group on CAP SM's/Cadets with several wearing the sage green boots. Spoke to their Senior who couldn't care less and thought it wasn't an issue as he was AD Air Force and thought both boots are acceptable regardless of what the reg states.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this and have any others on here encountered similar issues?

[Abby.L]

Ooohhhh boy someone get the popcorn ready.

In all seriousness, the regs are the regs. My squadron meets on an active AFB,  and despite having been approached by some active MSgts who were... "Curious" to say the least, I have found most AD guys are capable of enough intelligence to figure out that we have a different regulation, especially if the victim discloses as much.

Being AD myself, I actually hate the black boots. But again, regs are regs, and whatever AFB these issues occur on will eventually figure that out.

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[Fubar]

Just to be clear, I'm not shooting the messenger here. It sounds to me like you know this isn't right, but feel like you're not sure what you can do about it.

1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

Sounds to me like you've had folks that rationalized what they're doing, even though they know it's against the rules. You did the right thing, quietly discussed the matter with those that needed an intervention. While you probably have more influence over your cadets (and kudos to you for helping the cadet out), you'll probably have to reach out the chaplain's commander since the chaplain wasn't receptive to your correction. Same thing with the senior member at the air show.

If the chaplain and his commander really think this is a problem, it seems to me a 5 minute meeting with the base security folks would solve this problem instead of blatantly breaking our rules.

[audiododd]

If SF was accusing a member who was wearing BLUE name tapes, BLUE rank background, and a BLUE branch tape that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL," then cops are dumber than I thought!  I'm just kidding about the dumb part, but seriously...impersonating an officer??  Gimme a break.  That should have been easily fixed by calling the Duty Sgt.  If it's a regular issue, I agree w/FUBAR.  A call or email from the CAP squadron commander to the SFS commander (or Chief, or Shirt) indicating that there is some confusion about CAP uniforms vs. AD uniforms and request that they bring it up at the next commander's call (don't want to say his people are wrong...cops don't like that) should take care of the problem.  I do, however know plenty of AD shirts and chiefs that are just itching to call someone out on uniform issues.  If you guys meet on an active base, maybe that's a "learning opportunity" for base leadership.  Somehow, get leadership to share with their members that there's a CAP sq on base and that their uniforms are just a bit different.  I know at my base there are mailing lists for the Top-3 and 1st Sgts and any many other groups (chiefs, CGOs, etc.).  That's an easy way to disseminate the information.

Regs are regs...I don't like the black boots either.  I have to keep my AD uniforms in one closet and my CAP uniforms in another closet to make sure I don't make any mistakes if I'm in a hurry.  As far as the AD guy that thinks it's OK -- that's a BIG problem in my world.  It shows me that he has no respect for regulations, whether CAP or AD.  If he can't be bothered to read the regulations and abide by them in a volunteer role, it makes me think he doesn't care about regulations in his AD role.  If the cadets see that he doesn't care about regulations, they either a) won't care either or b) won't respect his opinions if they know he's in the wrong or c) both of the above.  It's hard to hold someone accountable when there is no UCMJ or punitive actions you can take.  Somehow, you have to get people to realize that wearing the uniform is part and parcel of being a CAP member.

[kwe1009]

Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

[Eclipse]

^ +1

There are simple ways to deal with this, all involving direct conversations.

Anyone shows up to a unit meeting with something that glaring, Chaplain or otherwise, they get a discreet conversation with
a follow-up to their CC, and probably /cc'ed to the Wing CC to insure a "Boss Memo" comes out on the issue.

Beyond that, you can only fix your AOR, but within those walls, members need to understand the rules, regs, and
who controls the organization.

It makes no sense that CAP members would get hassled about boot color, but >not< about nametape color.

These are people who want to wear green boots telling tales.

[Angus]

Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

What the OP was indicating is that SF were detaining our members who were wearing the uniform correctly, but SF that they were impersonating an AD Officer. 

[kwe1009]

Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

What the OP was indicating is that SF were detaining our members who were wearing the uniform correctly, but SF that they were impersonating an AD Officer.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe SF is detaining any CAP member for uniform violations (actual or perceived).  I think the OP is being fed a line of BS from people who just want to wear the ugly green boots.

By the way, the green boots were not popular when ABUs first came out.  Most people I heard from either thought that the USAF should stay with black boots or go with tan like the Army since everyone who had deployed in the previous decade had a pair of tan boots already.

[Eclipse]

Aren't Maintainers and other in high-grease environments still wearing black?  Or was that changed?

[abdsp51]

Aren't Maintainers and other in high-grease environments still wearing black?  Or was that changed?

This was changed a few years ago.  Anyone working in areas that had a the authorization to wear black boots now wear a sage leather boot. 

[MSG Mac]

Stop by the SF office and present them with a copy of R39-1, explain to the Commander or 1Sgt that the CAP has a different regulation that does not allow us to wear the sage boots. leave the Regulation so that they can pass this information along to their subordinates. Also drop the 39-1 at the Uniform shop so that they won't sell the wrong boots to CAP members.

[abdsp51]

Stop by the SF office and present them with a copy of R39-1, explain to the Commander or 1Sgt that the CAP has a different regulation that does not allow us to wear the sage boots. leave the Regulation so that they can pass this information along to their subordinates. Also drop the 39-1 at the Uniform shop so that they won't sell the wrong boots to CAP members.

No action will be taken.  I highly doubt that some CAP membet got heamed up for impersonating.

[kwe1009]

It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

[THRAWN]

It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

Must have been the same officer that demanded a salute and then bombed a Nazi sub...

[abdsp51]

It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

Yup.  Been on both sides of the fence on that one. And most base cops have bettsr thing to do and cut their teeth on than detaining a CAP member.

[NIN]

Must have been the same officer that demanded a salute and then bombed a Nazi sub...

"Twice."

[capsmov]

Just want to chime in here regarding what actually happened to me once when I was in Germany. In 2015, I was a fairly new member of CAP and an Active Duty Senior Airman. I lived off base with my wife and was coming through the gate to attend an 1830 meeting in the CAP Blues uniform. As I stopped at the gate I gave SF's my AD CAC card and he looked at me strange as I had 2nd Lt CAP ranks on. He asked me what it was and I explained to him even showing him my CAP ID and he told me to pull over to the side. He called in a supervisor who was also perplexed at everything and said he was detaining me under the suspicion of violating the UCMJ Article 134. After a good 20 minutes and a quick ride to the SF Desk Sergeant everything was cleared up. I just wanted to put this out there because it happened to me once, so I wouldn't be quick to call the OP's story false.   

[dwb]

I am also familiar with bases where CAP has an active presence being confused on why we lag so far behind USAF on uniform things.

Quite a while back, we had USAF folks at the local ANG asking why we (senior members) didn't have rank on our BDU cap. All of their people did, and it was confusing them that we didn't. Eventually CAP caught up.

They wondered why we didn't have Gore Tex parkas sooner, then why people didn't have slip-on ranks for the parkas, and most recently were perplexed that we were still in BDUs at all when they had been in ABU for years.

Point being, at the grassroots level, it's actually easier for our people to look like their people (or be in completely CAP distinctive uniforms so we stand out as definitively CAP). This mish-mash stuff we've been doing only leads to more confusion, IMO.

[abdsp51]

If the so called alleged detainment happened then it is like what under 1%?  I can guarantee you that Security Forces has better and bigger things to do and worry about than CAP impersonating anyone.  An they especially have better and bigger things to do than to detain for a uniform violation.

So taking 39-1 to them and giving it to the CC or the shirt is not going to benefit anyone. 

Since I have been back in the program for the last four years outside of one occasion I never had any issues with Security Forces personally.  The unit I was part of had a couple of hiccups and those hiccups were rectified relatively quickly.

The one instance I had was rectified then and there. 

If what the OP has alleged to be true then there was more to it or it is hearsay.

[PHall]

Showing them the current 39-1 would be a waste of time anyway since there is nothing in the 39-1 regarding ABU's.
The wear instruction letters are just that, letters. And they have zero authority.
It would take only about an hour or two for National to incorporate the ABU Wear Instructions in to the 39-1.
Maybe they'll get around to it, maybe...

[capsmov]

I can assure you the detention of myself happened as I described in my post. It was even posted in the unrestricted base blotter entry the following day as a blip. I do agree it was an anomaly(less than 1%), but my point was to not discard what the OP was saying as it not happening because you don't want to believe it happened.

So taking 39-1 to them and giving it to the CC or the shirt is not going to benefit anyone.

It was the CAP website that actually cleared this up. Good thing I was in perfect regulations of the uniform as they looked the photographs and compared them to what I was wearing. Again agree this is a rare occurrence, but it does happen.

Anyway let's get back to talking about the OP's questions about Sage Boots!

[sarmed1]

By AFI, each base should have a Field Grade officer appointed by the installation commander to work as a liaison between the local unit and the base.  That should be the route of POC for concerns or questions regarding CAP uniform wear and any "issues" with USAF personnel.  No one on the AD is going to go out of their way to self check about CAP and its uniform idiosyncrasies, if there isnt a memo about it (and even then) no one will care.

mk

[AirAux]

I did bomb a sub, two of them in fact, Nazi's they were.  Unfortunately due to ego's, uniform regulations, top secrecy. etc., I will never, ever be given credit for it.  It is too damaging to the German military to admit that a little yellow/red (whatever I was flying that day) airplane sank a German sub.  Wouldn't be politically correct.  rest assured I do have the photos, but will take them to the grave.....

[NIN]

I did bomb a sub, two of them in fact, Nazi's they were.  Unfortunately due to ego's, uniform regulations, top secrecy. etc., I will never, ever be given credit for it.  It is too damaging to the German military to admit that a little yellow/red (whatever I was flying that day) airplane sank a German sub.  Wouldn't be politically correct.  rest assured I do have the photos, but will take them to the grave.....

"Thats classified..."

[THRAWN]

I did bomb a sub, two of them in fact, Nazi's they were.  Unfortunately due to ego's, uniform regulations, top secrecy. etc., I will never, ever be given credit for it.  It is too damaging to the German military to admit that a little yellow/red (whatever I was flying that day) airplane sank a German sub.  Wouldn't be politically correct.  rest assured I do have the photos, but will take them to the grave.....

"Thats classified..."

Lisa: I don't think anyone in this family could be capable of murder.
Grampa: You never know what people are capable of. I never thought I could shoot down a German plane. But last year, I proved myself wrong.

[MHC5096]

Years ago when DOD vehicle decals were still a thing, I had a comical encounter with the SF crew at the Plattsburgh AFB. I had just purchased a new vehicle and figured I'd stop by Pass and ID to register it on my way to our weekly CAP meeting on base. I was wearing the Air Force blues uniform with CAP Captain insignia. The young Airman behind the desk addresses me by grade and asks for my ID and vehicle information. At the time I was also a PO2 in the Navy Reserve, so I handed her my Reserve ID card. With a look of confusion on her face she asks the other Airman sitting next to her if should issue me a blue officer sticker or a red NCO sticker. I chuckle and tell her that technically the green civilian sticker was also an option since CAP is a civilian auxiliary to the Air Force. Now both are confused and one goes and grabs a SSgt who comes over and tells them to issue me the red NCO sticker which is what I was after in the first place.

[LATORRECA]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji2][emoji2][emoji2][emoji2]


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[LATORRECA]

Coming in to the gate of Camp Lejeune, the Marine MP salutes. Then I told him "don't worry, I'm a Gunny" you should saw his face. A Marine Gunnery Sergeant in AF Uniform with Capt bars. It blow his mind. I took me a minute to explained him, to not worry and what CAP is.

   Now about the sage boots, those individuals are telling a bunch of [emoji243], may be not the issue about impersonating a officer but the other stuff (disregarding the regs), they just want to wear the boots because they want to be tacticool.  My recommendation, write a letter to the Wing Commander and reported to the IG. If the Wing Commander doesn't do anything, them make sure CC the Senior Enlisted for the Wing in the Email. Ask your commander if is ok with him to send the letter. If you get the opportunity to take a picture do it. Send it to the IG.

My .02 sense.

Top. Latorre


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[NIN]

You know, maybe it was just my neck of the woods or something, but (counts on fingers.. switches to toes.. grabs co-worker and uses his fingers..) when I got off AD 28 years ago and got active as a senior, we were still wearing blue shoulder marks and metal rank on our service coats. I never had a problem with "impersonating an officer,"nor did I hear of it (my commander was in Security Forces, and one of our seniors was the chief of police. We would have heard it) and I spent a LOT of time on the local ANG base where my group was HQ'd.

The closest I came to "impersonating an officer" when was when we did some kind of thing with the Air Guard wing (I can't even remember what it was.. not an airshow..) and for my part of whatever it was, I wound up working a half dozen other lieutenants from the ANG, all of us in "Class B" (not called that then) blues.  I spent the better part of the day working alongside these officers and their squadron commander. At the end of the day he gathered all the officers together and thanked us for the work we'd been doing for him and how we were doing a great job representing the Air National Guard alongside our CAP brothers and sisters and how it was great he got to the be the commander of such a great bunch of officers (its been a long time, I can't remember exactly how he put it). 

He was going around and shaking people's hands, and he grabbed mine and said "Thanks a bunch, Lieutenant," and then I saw his eyes land on my shoulder marks that said "CAP"

"Ha! You're not even one of mine!" he exclaimed. "All day I thought you were one of my lieutenants!"

I kind of got a kick out of that.

[Eclipse]

Someone attempts entering a military base with an ID which does not match his uniform and there is surprise that they are pulled to the side and checked.
We should all be thankful that's happening.

Show the ID that matches the clothes you're wearing and the odds are there will be less hassle.   

My personal experience has been that when the DOD or other service-based police are manning the gates or
other areas, everything is fine, it's only when civillin contractor get involved that we have "issues" (like "CAP doesn't meet
here anymore..."...seriously).

[Ned]

Show the ID that matches the clothes you're wearing and the odds are there will be less hassle.   

Concur with the sentiment generally, but for me it kinda depends on the base.  Since my retired military ID is D-BIDS readable, I have found it to be more efficient than showing my CAP ID, even when I am in a CAP uniform.  Depending on the base, my CAP ID usually works fine, but only after a trip to the pass and ID shack and an opportunity to show registration and proof of insurance.

Obviously, YMMV. 

[abdsp51]

Show the ID that matches the clothes you're wearing and the odds are there will be less hassle.   

Concur with the sentiment generally, but for me it kinda depends on the base.  Since my retired military ID is D-BIDS readable, I have found it to be more efficient than showing my CAP ID, even when I am in a CAP uniform.  Depending on the base, my CAP ID usually works fine, but only after a trip to the pass and ID shack and an opportunity to show registration and proof of insurance.

Obviously, YMMV.

Yep.  I show my CAC anytime going on base regardless of what I wear.  And I have only been questioned once.  Answered it and went on my way.

[ALH]

By AFI, each base should have a Field Grade officer appointed by the installation commander to work as a liaison between the local unit and the base.  That should be the route of POC for concerns or questions regarding CAP uniform wear and any "issues" with USAF personnel.  No one on the AD is going to go out of their way to self check about CAP and its uniform idiosyncrasies, if there isnt a memo about it (and even then) no one will care.

mk

::small off-topic soapbox::

A very good point (and role) that is often overlooked by both the AF and CAP. A solid working relationship through that conduit is a great enabler to both CAP and the AF.

For example, when Thunderbird 6 (IIRC) crashed after the USAFA graduation back in May, the working relationship between the local CAP units and the liaison was invaluable. The discussion for getting aerial photography of the crash site was waffling between satellite photos and military flights, both options involving lots of money and effort. One of the squadron commanders in the Operations Group knew of CAP via their liaison and went to him to ask for CAP's proposal for support. Within hours, a plan was sketched, national ops contacted, a request levied by the base leadership, and CAP was able to conduct the photo mission within 24 hours.

What does that have to do with sage boots? That liaison would have no problem going to the wing leadership to smooth out that misunderstanding because they keep that open, working relationship with both entities open. If it was a once-off event, it'll be a good story to tell later; but if the problem persists, it pays to have a good relationship greased with the base leadership and contacts prior to trying to justify their weighing into the matter. This also goes for on-base housing of assets, material support, ease of access... the list goes on.

::soapbox off::

[abdsp51]

What does that have to do with sage boots? That liaison would have no problem going to the wing leadership to smooth out that misunderstanding because they keep that open, working relationship with both entities open. If it was a once-off event, it'll be a good story to tell later; but if the problem persists, it pays to have a good relationship greased with the base leadership and contacts prior to trying to justify their weighing into the matter. This also goes for on-base housing of assets, material support, ease of access... the list goes on.

::soapbox off::

Of course the need to "smooth things out" could be avoided if members just did what they were supposed to and followed the regs like they are supposed to and not look the other way. 

And honestly I am not buying the OP's statement that members are always getting yelled at by the Army and Air Force folks there.  The average AF member has better things to do than worry about CAP wearing sage or black boots.  Most AF members don't even pay enough attention to each other with uniform violations to much less pay attention to CAP.

[capsmov]

Someone attempts entering a military base with an ID which does not match his uniform and there is surprise that they are pulled to the side and checked.
We should all be thankful that's happening.

Show the ID that matches the clothes you're wearing and the odds are there will be less hassle.     

If you read my statement I was in Germany, Ramstein AFB to be exact. Go to any of the overseas CAP squadrons and go try pulling that crap at the gate showing your CAP ID to get access. Sorry ain't going to happen. You won't even be able to get a base pass with it. I needed to show my Military ID due to DBIDS and my SOFA car license plate made it clear along with the US Forces sticker. Secondly, I did show it to them and they looked at the flimsy thing and flipped it over and thought it was a membership card like the VFW or American Legion. Not sure if it is like that in the other overseas CAP like Korea and Japan, but I am certain they too wouldn't be able to pull that stunt as you need to have SOFA status anyway. Maybe one of them can chime in....

[Eclipse]

^ You're not the only one responding with gate issues in a non-matching uniform,
and frankly I would think my statement goes double overseas considering force protection issues.

You'd probably be better off in those cases coming through in either civilian dress (if it's allowed) or the military
uniform and change when you get to the CAP meeting location.

In CONUS there are plenty of civilians with no other access to a base than CAP coming in every day, but
even though it looks like that is a possibility under the regs, it that a practical reality in any CAP units overseas?

[abdsp51]

Someone attempts entering a military base with an ID which does not match his uniform and there is surprise that they are pulled to the side and checked.
We should all be thankful that's happening.

Show the ID that matches the clothes you're wearing and the odds are there will be less hassle.     

If you read my statement I was in Germany, Ramstein AFB to be exact. Go to any of the overseas CAP squadrons and go try pulling that crap at the gate showing your CAP ID to get access. Sorry ain't going to happen. You won't even be able to get a base pass with it. I needed to show my Military ID due to DBIDS and my SOFA car license plate made it clear along with the US Forces sticker. Secondly, I did show it to them and they looked at the flimsy thing and flipped it over and thought it was a membership card like the VFW or American Legion. Not sure if it is like that in the other overseas CAP like Korea and Japan, but I am certain they too wouldn't be able to pull that stunt as you need to have SOFA status anyway. Maybe one of them can chime in....

I was at Osan.  And none of the folks assigned there ever got detained for impersonating an officer.  I got questioned about it once and answered the question and proceeded on my merry way and I was wearing BBDU with bars and showed my CAC.  And I entered the main gate there every Monday unless the meeting was cancelled.  We got questioned every now and then but we never got detained.  And the threat is more real in Korea especially Osan than Ramstein.  I think there is more to your story and than you are are letting on.  And if there isn't then it was a fluke plain and simple. 

[NIN]

To back this discussion up a tiny bit away from "who gets hauled out of the car and jacked up at gunpoint when.."

I had a conversation with an ANG E-9 some years ago about CAP and BDUs.  This was before the AF transitioned to ABUs, so we were all in salad suits.

He and I were discussing the differences in our uniforms and he noted something I'd never thought of before.

From behind or 100 ft away, say, in BDUs CAP folks looked no different than ANG people.  Black boots, some units might have a colored hat like the ANG did, etc.  But from 100 ft away, an ANG guy and a CAP guy are virtually indistinguishable in salad suits. 

Now, from 10ft away, different matter (nametags, full color patches, "CAP" on things).  It becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly. One thing, at the time, that was distinguishing at 100ft (and was actually kind of visible) was the white t-shirt with BDUs, and that got a lot of queries until it was changed ~a year later.

His statement to me, at the time, was something I've carried as a philosophy when it comes to inspections and such, too. "If it looks wrong, it probably is wrong."  If he can see from 100ft away that some airmen are jacked up (ie hands in pockets, boots not bloused, hats on the backs of their heads, jackets unzipped), well, here comes the the E-9 lightning to see what the heck is going on.

Today, from 100ft away, our folks "look wrong" to an ANG or AF, mostly due to the black boots.  But when they get within 10ft, they're going to see differences that should be far more obvious & distinguishing (dark blue tapes, full color patches).

But its an important distinction.  And one that the Air Force prefers. 

So if someone is doing things outside of the matter in which the Air Force has prescribed for our uniforms, they're doing it wrong.

[SarDragon]

Secondly, I did show it to them and they looked at the flimsy thing and flipped it over and thought it was a membership card like the VFW or American Legion.

Unless it has a picture on it, it is just a membership card, and that's what CAP called them before the picture IDs hit the street.

[Eclipse]

Unless it has a picture on it, it is just a membership card, and that's what CAP called them before the picture IDs hit the street.

Which it of course does, since all senior members are required to have a photo on file in eServices.

[SarDragon]

I believe the discussion was regarding historical events, since the statements were in the past tense - was - and the comment specifically mentioned flimsy cards, which went away in 1999.

[Eclipse]

I believe the discussion was regarding historical events, since the statements were in the past tense - was - and the comment specifically mentioned flimsy cards, which went away in 1999.

The thing NHQ sends me every year is flimsier then my local Park's pool pass, and is literally the same stock as my library card.

[RMW14]

Which it of course does, since all senior members are required to have a photo on file in eServices.

Just curious if you were being sarcastic or if this is really in the regs somewhere? I have a few seniors that refuse to upload a photo into eServices even after I offered to take the picture and size it correctly to make it easier on them to upload.

Well, never mind, I decided to poke around in the regs and found it myself! 
CAPR 39-2 1.15.2

1.15.2. Active members, fifty year members, life members, legislative members and cadets 18 and over will receive a photo membership card. These members must upload a passport-style photo with a plain white or off white background into their member record through eServices. Once the photo has been validated by the unit commander, the initial membership card will be processed. All other membership categories will receive a similar membership card without a photo. CAP will provide one membership card free of charge each year upon joining/renewal. Replacements for lost or stolen cards may be ordered at any time for a $3 fee. These cards may be purchased through eServices. Membership cards are not automatically reissued when members are promoted or transfer units; however, new cards will be provided when individuals change categories of membership, i.e., patron to active, or cadet to active or have a change in name.

[Eclipse]

This has been a hard-fast requirement for a number of years, and one which a lot of commanders are unaware of.

[SarDragon]

Well, then, your definition of flimsy differs from mine. While the current ID cards are thinner than the previous version of membership card, they are still sturdier than those issued in 1998 and prior.

I have been issued seven different flavors of membership cards over the course of my membership, and the current one is the most functional of them all, having my name, CAPID, grade, membership status, expiration date, picture, and two different bar codes. The only thing missing that used to be on the cards is the unit ID, which, IMHO, is of questionable usefulness. I don't know how thick a card you think we need, but I'm not experiencing structural failures on my current cards.

[stillamarine]

I got my new ID the other day, I thought it was gonna float away in the wind. I'm afraid to get it wet.

[Eclipse]

I don't know how thick a card you think we need, but I'm not experiencing structural failures on my current cards.

How about the same as an average driver's license?

Granted, the average member never uses their card as an identification card, nor gets near a military base, but for those that do, it might be
nice not to get "the look", granting again that "the look" comes for other reasons as well.

Comparing it to the "cards of olde" fails when you consider that at one point all we had were form 19's, which members
and commanders could literally make themselves, but this was also at a time when military IDs looked like a grade school art project
made with a broken typewriter.

[SarDragon]

What's with the continual "my right is more right than your right"? And shifting the goalposts, changing the discussion from thickness to appearance in general, is poor form.

Here's the results of some comparative measurements:

Two current CAP ID cards are thicker than a credit card, which is thicker than my CA drivers license, which is thicker than either of my military IDs, which are thicker than a single CAP ID.

Since my caliper is MIA, I've used the thickness of a new dollar bill as a unit of measurement, and compared each type of ID with stacks of varying size. A dollar bill is approximately .11 mm thick.

Credit card - 7
Previous style CAP memb card - 6.5
My library card - 6.5
CA DL - 6
Mil ID - 5
CAP ID - 4.5

I don't know what you expect of a CAP ID, performance-wise, but it sounds like too much. Regarding CAPF 19, it was made of the same stock as the pre-1989 cards, and is not germane to the discussion.

As for the appearance of mil IDs, exactly what are you talking about? I've had one, of one color or another since I was 10, and the appearance didn't materially change until they went to the current direct printed form in 1993. Prior to that, they were hand typed, the picture was a Polaroid taped to the front of the card, and then the card was laminated. I used to make them. I do not understand "grade school art project". Could you do any better with the existing resources?

[capsmov]

There was a really great proposal for a CAP ID card back in 2005 when they made the switch to the current ID Card. It made sense, looked professional and was completely compatible with the current DBIDS, not to mention could have been given the certificates to log onto the Air Force NIPR net when needed such as CAP Chaplains on Military Support or other mission essential work. Does anyone know why it was shot down?

[abdsp51]

There was a really great proposal for a CAP ID card back in 2005 when they made the switch to the current ID Card. It made sense, looked professional and was completely compatible with the current DBIDS, not to mention could have been given the certificates to log onto the Air Force NIPR net when needed such as CAP Chaplains on Military Support or other mission essential work. Does anyone know why it was shot down?

Cost.  Plus there is no need for CAP to have access to the AF network.

[capsmov]

Cost.  Plus there is no need for CAP to have access to the AF network.

Beg to differ in my experience. In Germany and the rest of the overseas squadrons they don't receive a cent from National in regards to any money nor equipment. The USAF supported CAP there with letting them use their NIPR computers. If you didn't have an Air Force CAC then too bad or you had to get issued one with the blue stripe on it. Also we had a CAP Chaplain who was on MS duty approved by NHQ to conduct the services at the main chapel while they waited for an AD Chaplain to come aboard. I remember he had trouble again getting on the network as well and had to be issued a blue striped CAC. Lastly, in Germany if we couldn't get on the Air Force network then forget ever having the cadets fly on the Aero Club planes also forget being on the LAN for MSG support. Lots of reasons why some squadrons are already on the USAF network whether you knew it or not.

[NIN]

Cost.  Plus there is no need for CAP to have access to the AF network.

Beg to differ in my experience. In Germany and the rest of the overseas squadrons they don't receive a cent from National in regards to any money nor equipment. The USAF supported CAP there with letting them use their NIPR computers. If you didn't have an Air Force CAC then too bad or you had to get issued one with the blue stripe on it. Also we had a CAP Chaplain who was on MS duty approved by NHQ to conduct the services at the main chapel while they waited for an AD Chaplain to come aboard. I remember he had trouble again getting on the network as well and had to be issued a blue striped CAC. Lastly, in Germany if we couldn't get on the Air Force network then forget ever having the cadets fly on the Aero Club planes also forget being on the LAN for MSG support. Lots of reasons why some squadrons are already on the USAF network whether you knew it or not.

Contrast that with my unit, in a National Guard Armory, who are told "Yeah, no access to the internet. Ever."  A previous commander even interpreted this to mean we couldn't have a cellular hotspot ("Uh, boss, that means that we'd need to put our smartphones in airplane mode when we get on the reservation..")

But this is quite far afield of OP's original topic, so perhaps the mods might want to weigh in here.

[abdsp51]

Cost.  Plus there is no need for CAP to have access to the AF network.

Beg to differ in my experience.  In Germany and the rest of the overseas squadrons they don't receive a cent from National in regards to any money nor equipment. The USAF supported CAP there with letting them use their NIPR computers. If you didn't have an Air Force CAC then too bad or you had to get issued one with the blue stripe on it. Also we had a CAP Chaplain who was on MS duty approved by NHQ to conduct the services at the main chapel while they waited for an AD Chaplain to come aboard. I remember he had trouble again getting on the network as well and had to be issued a blue striped CAC. Lastly, in Germany if we couldn't get on the Air Force network then forget ever having the cadets fly on the Aero Club planes also forget being on the LAN for MSG support. Lots of reasons why some squadrons are already on the USAF network whether you knew it or not.

You can do all of that without being on the network.  And you wanna bet on receiving aid from NHQ?  You do not speak for all OS units.  And the AF allowed you to have access. There is no need day to day for CAP to have access to AF NIPR. 

Try again...

[kwe1009]

Over 56,000 CAP members and probably less than 500 have an actual need for a CAC.  Definitely not worth the cost.  At best I could maybe see an argument for commanders (squadron, group, wing, region, national) to have one but even that is a stretch.

Also, a CAC with a blue stripe is for non-US citizens.

If you are on an AF base you may be able to get Internet without a CAC.  Most bases have an non-Mil network that is used by places like the library and you may be able to get access to that network. 

Contrast that with my unit, in a National Guard Armory, who are told "Yeah, no access to the internet. Ever."  A previous commander even interpreted this to mean we couldn't have a cellular hotspot ("Uh, boss, that means that we'd need to put our smartphones in airplane mode when we get on the reservation..")

But this is quite far afield of OP's original topic, so perhaps the mods might want to weigh in here.

That is a pretty hard interpretation there.  At the very least that commander should have asked the NG if cell phones were OK instead of doing what he did.  Crazy...

[abdsp51]

I'll add this as well.  Since many SMs of an OS unit will have NIPR access due to their day jobs(IE most will be in a DOD employment capacity) no need for OS units to have a CAC type ID.

[NIN]

Contrast that with my unit, in a National Guard Armory, who are told "Yeah, no access to the internet. Ever."  A previous commander even interpreted this to mean we couldn't have a cellular hotspot ("Uh, boss, that means that we'd need to put our smartphones in airplane mode when we get on the reservation..")

That is a pretty hard interpretation there.  At the very least that commander should have asked the NG if cell phones were OK instead of doing what he did.  Crazy...

I know,  right? We talked him off that ledge. 



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[SarDragon]

Annnnnnnd, I think we're done here.

Click.