Conference Credit for Level III

[Ozzy]

Hi All, how long do you have to be at a conference to get credit for it? I'm planning on driving down early to the NER Conference on Saturday and then driving back in the same day. Obviously I plan on attending several of the seminars posted but since I'm not planning on staying the night, what would be an appropriate time to cut out?

[dwb]

I don't consider a banquet to be part of a conference. I think if you attend for the day stuff and participate in seminars, that counts.

That said, if you show up at 1pm and sneak out at 2:30pm, that's not really in the spirit of the rule.

[Eclipse]

There is no hard fast rule. It's entirely at the whim of the approver of the form 24 when it is sumpbmitted, since no credit, per se is recorded otherwise.

In fact one wing CC could accept a given conference and another not, BTDT.

Spirit and intent aside, if you're on the PA or have a cert, thats all that is generally checked or provided with the 24.

[Spam]

Ozzy, really you should consider what you're wanting out of the event, as with every CAP volunteer event. If you don't care about the banquet, skip out at 4 (or whatever) after the last meaningful technical session (if there are any).  If you're paying the conference fee and are making an honest intent to expose yourself to whatever training sessions, notetaking for your unit, and conducting necessary business, then I'd say you're on track with a Saturday day-only participation.  What is the intent of your going, bottom line, measured against the intent of the Level III requirement.


Some of us only reluctantly drag ourselves to conferences because that's where the mandatory Commanders Calls are being held that quarter (or half year). This year, I'm not paying the stinkin' 70 buck conference fee for the day, just for the bland chicken lunch and a commanders call - so I may come just for two hours from 10 to noon, then pull chocks myself (but I finished Level III 25 years ago).


One caveat on crew rest, your mileage may vary: I once drove 3 hours to a Wing Conference, stayed for the day, and drove 4 hours home in snow and ice that night (mid 1990s, on my second unit command, felt I "had" to be there for Commanders Call). Not the smartest move I've ever made. Don't Be That Guy.

There's your mandatory safety content for the day. 


V/r
Spam

[Ozzy]

That's good to hear. I am planning on being there for most of the day and participating in several of the seminars, I just hope they are more then just Power point to death... The banquet I figure I'll be skipping, I'll know only a few members that are going and I don't really have a personal stake in the ceremonies.

As for my intent to going to the conference.. it's on par with what Level III wants me to get. I'm planning on attending the general assembly, several of the seminars, and bringing back information back to my squadron. I don't however, want to be spending an extra $200 or so bucks between hotel rooms and such. I do plan on attending many conferences over the next couple of years (NY in April!) and I don't need Level III completed for about two more years. My question was simply to clarify  what constitutes successful attendance to a conference since no CAP publication states what that is so that I can plan my travel arrangements appropriately.

[MSG Mac]

If I were driving from NYWG or CTWG, I would make the most of it driving through New Jersey aka the Toll capital of the world would be so expensive that you should get your money's worth. Your PD Or Personnel Officer can input the attendance through E-Services.

[LATORRECA]

I have participated in three conference. Make sure you check in at the front table, in order to get you credit for attendance. Stay for the seminars and bounce when their done. I never had issues on getting credit for them and never participated on any banquet.

Top Latorre.


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[PHall]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

[Eclipse]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

Something else which should be in eservices - we've had some years where PAs were issued, and others
where seemingly no tracking was done at all, forcing people to use photos., canceled checks, or affidavits
as substantiation.

And of course the issue doesn't generally come up until you're filling out the 24 and someone says "prove it".
If the unit has a good PDO, they are hounding wing for proof immediately after conferences, if not, it's ignored
until it's an issue - worse still if the member is migratory between units, echelons, or wings.

Something required for progression should not be left to the wind.

[MSG Mac]

Some wings, like California Wing, publish a participant list of those who were at Wing Conference.
Makes verifying conference participation very easy.

Something else which should be in eservices - we've had some years where PAs were issued, and others
where seemingly no tracking was done at all, forcing people to use photos., canceled checks, or affidavits
as substantiation.

And of course the issue doesn't generally come up until you're filling out the 24 and someone says "prove it".
If the unit has a good PDO, they are hounding wing for proof immediately after conferences, if not, it's ignored
until it's an issue - worse still if the member is migratory between units, echelons, or wings.

Something required for progression should not be left to the wind.

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Membership system, You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

[Eclipse]

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Professional Development input. You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

I don't see anything like that under Personnel.

Under Professional Development - Membership System, there's a place to enter various requirements
towards PD Levels, but without substantiation of those entries, some Wings won't accept that. This area
is just an online F24.

Conferences should be tracked like an Encampment or NCSA - someone with rights at the wing or higher
enters the credit as part of the close-of-show, the box is checked and no one had to go scrambling.

Is this what you are talking about? 

[capip1998]

Go to E-Services, open Personnel tab, click on Professional Development input. You can add Conferences, Presentations to outside groups, etc. after inputting the members CAPID, it will open to his. Current training level. If a level 4 or 5 accomplishment is done, just click the training level tab to the correct level.

I don't see anything like that under Personnel.

Under Professional Development - Membership System, there's a place to enter various requirements
towards PD Levels, but without substantiation of those entries, some Wings won't accept that. This area
is just an online F24.

Conferences should be tracked like an Encampment or NCSA - someone with rights at the wing or higher
enters the credit as part of the close-of-show, the box is checked and no one had to go scrambling.

Is this what you are talking about?

Sort of, under personnel there is a link to the membership system. In there you click on the PD Award Entry link and then can enter specific items towards a level. It most like is only open to commanders and personnel officers so that may be why you don't see it. Upon submission it is validated by the commander and that really is the only "proof" required unless someone in your COC has implemented a more specific policy.


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[Eclipse]

Sort of, under personnel there is a link to the membership system. In there you click on the PD Award Entry link and then can enter specific items towards a level. It most like is only open to commanders and personnel officers so that may be why you don't see it.

I is one, so if it's there, I see it - I know about the F24, which is what I think we're talking about, that doesn't necessarily help because of...

Upon submission it is validated by the commander and that really is the only "proof" required unless someone in your COC has implemented a more specific policy.

That's the issue - substantiation is completely arbitrary and subjective. My personal experience has been everything from "yeah, we know you were there" to "prove it"
at which point I had to pull out photos of me standing in proximity to the person who said I wasn't there.

That's why this should be an eservices training entry and not a subjective call, same goes for the other stuff in there.
The majority of my CAP membership has been as a CC or high-level staffer, all recorded properly, yet the online 24 still shows my LV as missing
a command or staff assignment, plus the "dir or staff of an educational activity" all which may or may not have to be substantiated
at the time of submission and which is a waste of precious time.

I also know that my wing is not unique in this situation.

[Eclipse]

^ I just went in and entered my dates for what was missing, and it required no substantiation or validation,
so anyone upstream would be well within their rights to question where I was a course dir, who I mentored,
and staff assignments.

This is just an online 24, it doesn't actually establish anything final like say the encampment module does on the
training tab.

[kwe1009]

^ I just went in and entered my dates for what was missing, and it required no substantiation or validation,
so anyone upstream would be well within their rights to question where I was a course dir, who I mentored,
and staff assignments.

This is just an online 24, it doesn't actually establish anything final like say the encampment module does on the
training tab.

You are absolutely right.  I have seen some people have to produce evidence of conference attendance once they are submitted for LIII.  This can really cause problems for some who took 5 or more years to complete all of the requirements and attended conferences that long ago.  I like what some have said about the Wing issuing a PA to show attendance.  That is pretty easy to do.

[Lord of the North]

CAPR 50-17 para 2-5e clearly states "Members submit applications for awards using the Professional Development Awards Module in eServices. The CAP Form 24, Application for Senior Member Professional Development Award, can be used as an alternate method if the online version is not available. Documentation (certificates, diplomas, etc.) need not be attached if the member's online record shows completion of requirements. A member submitting an application for an award whose achievements do not appear on their online record must be ready to produce supporting documentation upon request prior to approval of awards. NHQ/DPR returns applications not supported by the member's record entries or documentation."  (my emphasis)

As for the hosting wing or region, I have for a number of years now prepared Participation Letters (not PSs) for wing and region conference attendance as well issuing individual attendance certificates when PLs were not accomplished.

Yes, it would good if e-services captured several other validation items.  Maybe in the next 75 years.  YMMV

[Luis R. Ramos]

The point that some members are trying to make in here is who will prepare said "supporting documentation."

Along with this is that said documentation would have more weight coming from Wing / Region / NHQ than if provided by the member.

A photograph purportedly taken at a conference? How do I know it was really taken at that conference and not at a CLC?

Participation Letter prepared by the squadron? When? Before the event? If so, how can we prove the member was actually in attendance?

An after-the-fact letter provided by a member stating he saw a member who needs that proof 10 years after the fact for a reinstatement of grade, a missing award, etc at the conference?

Why can't the Region have a sign sheet for attendees to sign when they arrive, and that becomes prima facie evidence?

[Eclipse]

All of the above is why it should be another entry in eservices like an NCSA or encampment, and not
left to subjective acceptance.

For wings with poor record keeping, either currently or in the past, at some point someone will
have to make a decision, and if it's unfair or incorrect, leave themselves open to a sustainable complaint.

There's no issue with asking for substantiation, but at some point it's not worth the argument to
keep insisting someone didn't go somewhere, even if, in the extremely rare case, you think they might
be fudging the truth, not that wings don't do just that.

[EMT-83]

My favorite form of documentation for attendance at a conference was a photo of the member with the region commander, taken next to the PowerPoint slide that said "welcome to the regional conference".

[MSG Mac]

The fact that most conference registration are done through Eventbrite, and or PayPal should make attendance verification fairly easy.