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LTCTerry
Recruit

Posts: 19
Unit: NHQ-119

« on: January 17, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »

I need the collective experience, wisdom, and knowledge here - how do I prove to an Army lawyer that it's OK for Cadets and Senior Members to fly on an Army airplane?

We have a chance to take some Cadets on a day trip to an Air Force base during an Army C-12 training mission. The Battalion Commander has asked for a legal review, but wants to see it happen. The Army JAG Captain, I think, really wants to make it happen. He's looking for something, however, that doesn't exist. There is no policy anywhere that says "Wiesbaden Flight CAP Cadets can fly on an Army airplane to an Air Force base on a day trip."

The lawyer was in CAP as a Cadet. He "just" needs to see something that builds the case in his mind that it's OK.

I have shown him DODI 4515-13. I've shown him CAPR 76-1. Etc. I've given him the 1999 TRANSCOM letters. He's getting hung up on "CAP approved," "workshop," "orientation flight," and "space available." If it's not approved by the National Commander it must not be "CAP approved." We "don't have anything that makes it a workshop." It's not in a 172 so it can't be an "orientation flight." He's confusing "if space is available" with space-A travel at an AMC terminal (Almost wrote "MAC terminal,' must be old.)

We have the support of the Wing Commander on the other end. One of his Squadron commanders is assigned as our liaison. We'll meet up with Cadets and Senior Members there, plus get to join up with British Air Cadets for the day. The USAF staff on the other end is excited because we're bringing them in contact with their British counterparts.

The day is scheduled to be filled with genuine USAF stuff - KC-135, F-15, MC-130, CV-22, weather office, tower, parachute rigging/repair, maintenance shop, and so on.

I know that it's allowed. How do I successfully make the case?

Muchas gracias in advance.

Terry
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,382
Unit: of issue

« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 05:40:21 PM »

This is a dumb question, and I swear I should know this, but who does an Overseas Squadron report to? (I know "NHQ," but like literally is there a voice on the other end of the phone who is the "next person" in the overseas squadron's chain of command?)  That person, in concert with CAP-USAF, would be my next stop in the "hey, where is this authorized?" chain.


Next, lacking a specific AR on the subject (since Army lawyers are gonna wanna see Army Regulations.... LOL), what about an Air Force Instruction?

https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F.pdf

Specifically:
Quote
3.15. Orientation Flights in Air Force Aircraft. The Air Force may provide CAP cadets and senior members with orientation flights in Air Force aircraft. Such flights can be included as
part of planned or scheduled training and operational flight missions in accordance with AFI 11-401, Aviation Management. Air Force personnel should consider the purpose of any scheduled
or planned flight activities and their suitability as orientation flights.

3.16. Airlift Support. Airlift support is permitted for official CAP activities in accordance with DOD 4515.13-R, Chapter 2, and must be approved by CAP-USAF/CC or the designee. (T-2).

I realize this pertains to AF Aircraft, specifically, but it does represent authority the AF derives from the DODI.  Also, and this relates to my prior mention of CAP-USAF, the CAP-USAF/CC or designee (I suspect that in the non-overseas US, the designee is the Liaison Region Commanders) can authorize airlift. So at some point, an email goes from a desk at Maxwell to a desk in Weisbaden and the Army Lawyer goes "Oh, cool.." and you're golden.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,624
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 07:31:53 PM »

I'll check with that we've done in the Wyoming Wing, and get back to you.
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<redacted>

GRW 3340
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,078

« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »

As NIN says, in CONUS you'll need CAP-USAF approval, neither is that difficult but Transport takes more justification then O-rides (o-rides begin and end in the same place).

Overseas, well good luck with that...
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

stillamarine
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 724
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 08:47:32 PM »

As NIN says, in CONUS you'll need CAP-USAF approval, neither is that difficult but Transport takes more justification then O-rides (o-rides begin and end in the same place).

Overseas, well good luck with that...

I know for years NJWG (I think) used to bring a bunch of cadets down the NAS PCola for the Blue Angels homecoming show. They came down on a 141 I believe. May have been a refueler.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
LTC Don
Seasoned Member

Posts: 339
Unit: MER-NC-143

JoCo CAP
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 09:32:07 AM »

I need the collective experience, wisdom, and knowledge here - how do I prove to an Army lawyer that it's OK for Cadets and Senior Members to fly on an Army airplane?

We have a chance to take some Cadets on a day trip to an Air Force base during an Army C-12 training mission. The Battalion Commander has asked for a legal review, but wants to see it happen. The Army JAG Captain, I think, really wants to make it happen. He's looking for something, however, that doesn't exist. There is no policy anywhere that says "Wiesbaden Flight CAP Cadets can fly on an Army airplane to an Air Force base on a day trip."

The lawyer was in CAP as a Cadet. He "just" needs to see something that builds the case in his mind that it's OK.

I have shown him DODI 4515-13. I've shown him CAPR 76-1. Etc. I've given him the 1999 TRANSCOM letters. He's getting hung up on "CAP approved," "workshop," "orientation flight," and "space available." If it's not approved by the National Commander it must not be "CAP approved." We "don't have anything that makes it a workshop." It's not in a 172 so it can't be an "orientation flight." He's confusing "if space is available" with space-A travel at an AMC terminal (Almost wrote "MAC terminal,' must be old.)

We have the support of the Wing Commander on the other end. One of his Squadron commanders is assigned as our liaison. We'll meet up with Cadets and Senior Members there, plus get to join up with British Air Cadets for the day. The USAF staff on the other end is excited because we're bringing them in contact with their British counterparts.

The day is scheduled to be filled with genuine USAF stuff - KC-135, F-15, MC-130, CV-22, weather office, tower, parachute rigging/repair, maintenance shop, and so on.

I know that it's allowed. How do I successfully make the case?

Muchas gracias in advance.

Terry

Overseas squadrons report to the National Chief of Staff.  Forward an inquiry to Col. Larry Ragland at National HQ.  I'm sure he can assist or point in the right direction.  There is some verbiage in Federal Law about CAP and DOD resources, but you'll have to research that.
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Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
MER-NC-143
Gill Rob Wilson #1891
randomcadet1941
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 05:13:26 PM »

NIN quoted this as well but there is something I'd like to highlight in particular.
Quote
3.15. Orientation Flights in Air Force Aircraft. The Air Force may provide CAP cadets and senior members with orientation flights in Air Force aircraft. Such flights can be included as
part of planned or scheduled training and operational flight missions in accordance with AFI 11-401, Aviation Management. Air Force personnel should consider the purpose of any scheduled
or planned flight activities and their suitability as orientation flights.

3.16. Airlift Support. Airlift support is permitted for official CAP activities in accordance with DOD 4515.13-R, Chapter 2, and must be approved by CAP-USAF/CC or the designee. (T-2).

I recognize (as NIN pointed out) that this is an AFI, but it could possibly still be used. Even though this is a training mission for the C-12, its still transport for an official CAP activitiy. Therefore it could fall under the airlift support clause and would be permitted, granted its in accordance with the cited DOD reg, and is approved by the appropriate person.
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RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,624
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 04:36:47 PM »

Check Army Reg AR 95-1 Section 2.  There are numerous sections that allow this, and who can authorize the flight (O-5 Commander)
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<redacted>

GRW 3340
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,244
Unit: Classified

« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 05:14:06 PM »

NIN quoted this as well but there is something I'd like to highlight in particular.
Quote
3.15. Orientation Flights in Air Force Aircraft. The Air Force may provide CAP cadets and senior members with orientation flights in Air Force aircraft. Such flights can be included as
part of planned or scheduled training and operational flight missions in accordance with AFI 11-401, Aviation Management. Air Force personnel should consider the purpose of any scheduled
or planned flight activities and their suitability as orientation flights.

3.16. Airlift Support. Airlift support is permitted for official CAP activities in accordance with DOD 4515.13-R, Chapter 2, and must be approved by CAP-USAF/CC or the designee. (T-2).

I recognize (as NIN pointed out) that this is an AFI, but it could possibly still be used. Even though this is a training mission for the C-12, its still transport for an official CAP activitiy. Therefore it could fall under the airlift support clause and would be permitted, granted its in accordance with the cited DOD reg, and is approved by the appropriate person.

If the mission starts and ends at the same point then it is not airlift or trans for a CAP activity.  You can do o-rides on mil aircraft as a CAP activity and it would not be considered trans/airlift for a CAP activity.
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LTCTerry
Recruit

Posts: 19
Unit: NHQ-119

« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 05:03:33 PM »

Update

I submitted an actual airlift request through the CAP-USAF liaison office. It was approved on their end, but couldn't be further approved without validation from the Army since it's Army aircraft. The local three-star command owns the aircraft (King Airs and Citations used for VIP transport), so validation turned out to be easy.

Now that it's a CAP-USAF approved request it's no longer "Terry's crazy idea" and JAG has pretty much bought off on it. He's contacted his Air Force counterpart down the road to ask his opinion. I think it will now "fly."

Once we broke the code on how to do it, it has simply been time consuming rather than totally uphill.

Side story - I once had a job moving "special" Air Force toys around. When I was looking for a POC at TRANSCOM I found the web page with contact info for the office that does "special" airlift. I called and said "remember me?" I got some great help!

This looks like it will work out to be a great trip and a great experience.

Thanks for the input/advice. This group made me smarter!

Terry
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