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kcebnaes
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« on: January 08, 2017, 10:00:15 PM »

I recently found out that my group has some former military NCO/SNCOs. What are some good selling points and benefits to switching to having stripes? As a non-military officer, I can't see the trees through the forest enough to properly describe it.

Thanks!
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 11:11:55 PM »

The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams
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FW
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 11:25:11 PM »

This is where the "Search" function is a very valuable tool......
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kcebnaes
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 12:02:41 AM »

Maj Williams- that's what I was sort of thinking as well.Thanks!



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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Ozzy
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 01:32:44 AM »

The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams

Slight correction, it's for members that have been promoted to at least E-4 and that have served in any component of the armed forces, not just active duty.
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Ozyilmaz, SSgt, CAP
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THRAWN
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 10:56:27 AM »

Here's four pages of info to start with: http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search2

EDIT 1217EST: DOH! It didn't do what I wanted. Enter NCO into the search box and you'll get a lot of material to review.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 01:18:00 PM by THRAWN » Logged
Strup
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kcebnaes
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 12:48:43 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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kwe1009
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 01:06:40 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 01:15:53 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).
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Strup
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kwe1009
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 01:41:52 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

I agree.  A lot of people are asking that same questions, including me, and I haven't seen any good answers other than "you get to keep your stripes" which isn't much of a selling point to me.
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Ozzy
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2017, 02:12:43 PM »



Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

Short answer: As CAP NCO, I would say it gives me another tool in my box to engage cadets with and help them develop as a leader, especially when it comes to developing the different skills of an NCO vs an officer. Cadets may choose to listen to a senior member NCO more then a Major since they have seen a thousand majors in CAP vs one sergeant.

Longer answer: Wait until I get home to type it up on a computer vs a tablet.

As for PME, yes, it is limited by the Air Force. Perhaps eventually CAP can request access to the NCO-equivalent courses once the CAP NCO program becomes more established.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2017, 02:13:34 PM »

After talking to the RMR Chief, you are correct in  that there is not any real difference- at this point.  It is, (and has been for quite some time) in development.
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GRW 3340
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2017, 02:17:18 PM »

Please allow my answer as to why I submitted the Cap Form to switch from CAP Officer to CAP NCO.

1. As I currently don't have a bachelors degree, nor plan on attaining one, I am ineligible to attend the SOS and Air War College. Looking into the future CAP NCO's might have the option to take the non Resident PME courses for AF SNCO's (I'm speculating but believe this will happen).

2. People do react differently to stripes, whether you believe it or not. I've experienced it. Yes, even in our volunteer capacity.

3. I do not wish to assume a Command billet. Though I have the option to if I ever changed my mind.  This lets people know you are here strictly to keep the machine running, not run the machine.

4. I wish to be on the ground floor of this new program. I also wish to provide my feedback which will help make the CAP NCO program something of worth.

Drawbacks, yes there's a few

1. The ranks are more expensive.

2. People always feel the need to voice their opinion to you about it, as if there way is the only way.
          a. My personal favorite, "Why do you want to be a CAP NCO? Ranks don't matter in CAP anyway!"      Then why are you even talking to me about it.


Just my two cents. Best of luck.
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TSgt
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2017, 05:59:58 PM »

I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. He’s a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best I’ve heard.

He said something to the effect of “I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.
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Earhart #2546
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2017, 06:39:49 PM »

“I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.


I wish our cadet program gave cadets a look at that difference!
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THRAWN
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »

I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. He’s a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best I’ve heard.

He said something to the effect of “I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route.” 

Solid.

In the past 75 years not sure that this has been an issue.
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Strup
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 11:41:47 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
I was a CAP Major when I switched over to CAP MSgt.
I'll be honest....one of the major reasons for the switch was just to be different.  (I switched over before the CAP NCO program was expanded).  But the other reason was that I was more comfortable lead my CAP brethren as an NCO instead of an officer.  It what I was trained for in the USAF.
 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2017, 06:42:42 PM »

I am a retired Chief Petty Officer.  20 Years Navy Seabees.
I am currently awaiting the approval to go from SM to MSGT.
My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.
And honestly, no offense to anyone, CAP has WAY too many officers.
It seems that just about anyone can join, do 6 months and be 2nd Louie,  But not anyone can be Non-Com.
I really enjoy the organization and so do my two sons(cadets), (they are kinda what got me into it).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2017, 07:02:06 PM »

My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.

How, exactly, do you believe that will work?

There are neither "junior troops" nor "junior officers" per se, in CAP when you consider that pilots routinely come in
with no military experience and railroad tracks, or are appointed as Unit CCs before their BCGs are done.

What specific abilities will you bring to "training" a Finance Officer in a golf shirt? (Etc.)

This is an honest question many have been asking for a decade+ on this and other forums and
no one has ever provided a real answer that works in a CAP context.

The "too many officers" discussion is already beginning to slowly work itself out with the new expectations
for promotion about Capt, which will suppress the majority of the grades to company level. 

No issue with you retaining your other-service grade, but there's no NCO "program" in CAP.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 07:05:23 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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SWChief
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2017, 08:14:09 PM »

Eclipse,

How will it work? well, great question.  Junior troops = new cadets, Yes the cadets pretty much take care of that but it doesn't hurt to have someone with military experience.  Junior officers = that brand new 2nd LT that never been in the military.
CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.  If they wanna be military then I am going to make sure that the Military Bearing is in place and kept.
I am not much of a linguist and don't usually put my thoughts into words very well.

I am here for the cadets mostly, I just feel that I can help with their upbringing to be the fine young folks that they can be, and help them into the transition to the real world.  They are our future, I want to see them succeed.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
Keep in mind here I am in a Cadet Squadron, So my focus is there.

As far as an NCO program...Well, I still have to pick a specialty track and complete the requirements due to the fact I hold those positions within the Squadron.  I am not trying to be the Next CMSGT of CAP.  Just trying to help out where I can.  In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

Also, not trying to stir any pots here folks.  Just my thoughts on the question at hand. :)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2017, 09:11:54 PM »

CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.

CAP is a paramilitary organization, just like FDs, & LEAs, there's a distinct difference. Some of the
trappings are there, but there is no organizational attempt to "wannabe military", and those individuals who do are an issue.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
They are already doing it "right", and that some might view that they aren't, is a problem, not an opportunity.

In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

No...and yet...

I ask honestly because I am interested in the expectation of a new member.  Assertions are made all the time that
military NCOs are better at training cadets, despite any particular skill or experience herding 12 year olds, or that somehow
their innate NCO super powers will "save" CAP, despite no particular experience or skill in a non-profit / volunteer environment,
no particular hands on with ES, AE, or even aviation, staffed mostly by adults with more age and experience, and further the (presumably) thousands of prior service NCOs who are wearing CAP officer grade to no detriment of their capabilities.

I'm also very curious what the reaction to this latest recruiting internal transition plan is by prior-service NCOs.
NCOs have historically stood on moral high ground about CAP officers (you did yourself here to some extent) - "too many",
"not qualified", "don't understand", etc., etc.

Well now that an E5 can rise to SMSgt in the same way (and even an E4 to MSgt), how is that any different?
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abdsp51
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 09:28:34 PM »

I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.
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PHall
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2017, 10:00:31 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2017, 10:06:58 PM »

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.

Second that.

I joined CAP as a cadet, and then joined the Navy five years later. I had to unlearn AF/CAPisms then, and then try to get rid of the Navyisms when I retired from the Navy. I had concurrent participation for about six years of the twenty I spent in the Navy. Showing up at Navy places in a CAP officer uniform as a Navy enlisted made for some interesting encounters. It all worked out, though.

Regarding the OP, I considered being a CAP NCO a couple of times, but couldn't find any specific advantage for doing so.

Chief, you make some good points, but I think your efforts are a little off the mark. The cadet program, for the most part, is run by the cadets, with SM oversight as needed. If the SMs in your unit are running the show, there's something amiss.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2017, 10:16:24 PM »

My intention was not to ruffle any feathers here. If I did, I do apologize.  Just simply trying to answer a question the best I can.  As I said, I am not very good at expressing my thoughts on paper, er screen. 
To date I have had the pleasure of meeting many great folks in CAP, all officers and I have much respect for them all.  I never intended to make it appear that I feel I am better then anyone else, Just the opposite,  I think I have a lot to offer,  And yes, I have a lot the learn.

I will just leave this here and be done since its not really going anywhere useful.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2017, 10:57:30 PM »

I think you're taking the desire for a legit discussion as stepping on toes, you're not, at least with me.

We're in a bubble here and pretty much have our individual camps - I am honestly interested in the
expectations of a new member with no preconceived notions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 11:06:29 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2017, 05:46:49 AM »

As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 05:50:14 AM by Flying Pig » Logged
FW
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2017, 09:10:34 AM »

As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.

I had two senior military NCOs on my staff "back in the day".  Both decided to take the "officer" route, however acted like NCOs in their dealing with cadets, with senior members, the military, and ES agencies.  Both got into trouble, and I had to deal with the mess; especially with one that was a command sergeant major with the PaNG...  IMHO, stripes, bars, oak leaves don't make the member.  Training, and commitment to core values do.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2017, 11:13:22 AM »

When this was first publically announced in 2013/14, I was all for it. But after constantly being told "Full details should be out in 90 days or so (still waiting after three years), I am convinced that CAP doesn't have a plan, but an idea, (fantasy?, dream? hallucination?), without much behind it. National HQ's delaying all new publications, including R20-1, a new R50-17, etc. didn't help in elaborating the duties of the NCO or the training differences between the NCO and Officer programs. Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander, and the insignia costs 2-3 times more than the Officers.   Otherwise the duties are the same.
Questions I would like to have answered"

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:22:26 AM by MSG Mac » Logged
Michael P. McEleney
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5
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lordmonar
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2017, 01:42:47 PM »

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2017, 01:53:25 PM »

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.

Thanks for the info!
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Strup
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2017, 02:06:19 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2017, 04:35:25 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.

Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2017, 10:38:40 PM »

Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.

It was not "implied", it was a direct statement in a regulation a number of us quoted here and elsewhere, I
just can't find it now.

It's not like it was a secret, your post indicates it was common knowledge since you felt it necessary to
show it was possible.  Expedient operations despite regulations to the contrary isn't exactly anything "new".
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2017, 11:39:46 AM »

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657

Quote
In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.


Good read on the first page and on here too: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.0


3.5 years later, and people were right.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2017, 11:42:29 AM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.


I can't find it, but it was in the "white paper" as well: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416


Bottom of page 2
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SarDragon
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« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2017, 03:37:39 PM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.

The 35-5 back to Mar 2010 has nothing, and my archives before that are unavailable right now. I'll try to dig them up later today.
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« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2017, 09:12:17 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.
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audiododd
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« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 12:22:33 AM »

From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the member’s appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.
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FW
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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 08:50:02 AM »

^ That's how the regulation should be interpreted.  So, basically this is truly just a uniform thread after all.  What you wish to wear on your sleeve or shoulder is up to you....  ;D
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 11:43:19 AM »

From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the member’s appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.


Nice find, except for the part where the reboot of an active NCO corps specifically said they wouldn't be able to hold that officer position. Not surprising on the reg side, since it's been 3.5 years, and not much progress was made in the program to begin with.
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foo
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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 11:54:51 AM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2017, 12:02:15 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2017, 12:30:17 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.


This, and again, the verbiage of the people behind the whole NCO "reboot".


https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_015_21F7ACED34F45.pdf


Quote
Tailoring the Challenge This principle of tying leadership skill, rank, and position together is all about providing a tailor-made leadership challenge for each cadet. However, this may result in the squadron needing to keep some staff positions vacant. For example, if the ranking cadet is an airman, their position still should be limited to element leader because we want to match them with a job that is appropriate for their leadership skill and rank – it would be premature to appoint that cadet as cadet commander. If the ranking cadet is a master sergeant, that cadet could serve as flight sergeant or first sergeant, but higher positions like flight commander and cadet commander should remain vacant. By assigning cadets to positions that match their rank and skill, we ensure each cadet has a leadership challenge that is appropriate. Further, by keeping high positions vacant until cadets achieve rank commensurate with the positions, we give the ranking cadet(s) additional challenges to strive towards and a reason to pursue promotions. As the cadets advance in CAP and mature as leaders, they can gradually be promoted into higher positions on the cadet staff.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2017, 12:31:52 PM »

For me it just adds to the confusion of CAP.  If a person want to hold a command position then they should be an officer.  I thought one of the main points for even having a CAP NCO corp was that it was for those former military NCOs who did not want to have command positions. 

As has been stated on this board many times regarding the CAP NCO program, it is a solution in desperate need of a problem to solve.

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Agreed.  Also you are doing a disservice to that cadet enlisted if you are putting them in roles such as "cadet commander" and "cadet flight commander."  What is their incentive to actually become a cadet officer?  I have seen a C/SSgt with the title of "cadet commander."  There is no need for that and you are putting responsibilities on that cadet that they likely are not ready for. 

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foo
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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2017, 12:32:41 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2017, 01:05:00 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.

That some units do it doesn't make it right or "the same thing".

Those CC's who have read 52-16, 20-1, as well have any experience working with adolescents, don't take the expedient route to staffing.
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kcebnaes
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« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2017, 02:38:23 PM »

I don't know if anyone has seen this, but here is the program that was sent to (and approved by) the Air Force..
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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2017, 03:03:23 PM »

Programs started by previous commanders may not have the same priority when the new one takes command. It's a fact of life. OE...where did that go?  NCO PROGRAM? No longer on the radar. I really enjoy the discussion, however I doubt we'll see anything coming from NHQ..
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2017, 03:59:23 PM »

For perspective, we should be planning/into phase III now - adding non former military NCOs. Yet I still get questions on just what the difference between NCO and O SMs is, and if the PD is the same.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2017, 05:47:44 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2017, 09:22:11 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.

According to Sardragon, he checked his file of old publications and even in 2010 the regs didn't say that.
But he said he would check further back when he can find those files.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2017, 07:39:47 AM »

In CAP, what it usually comes down to is the person who says they have time to do it gets the job.  Its not going to matter if you have 3 stripes, 11 stripes or a 1st Lt bar. 
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Ozzy
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« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2017, 03:23:23 PM »

Curiosity, I saw this on my FB feed... Has any commander on here seen this in their eServices?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/442238282464162/permalink/1388820944472553/

Quote
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS:

FROM: CAP/CC and CAP/COMMAND CHIEF SUBJECT: Senior Member Noncommissioned Officer Recruiting Drive

1. The Civil Air Patrol's NonCommissioned Officer (NCO) Program is off and running and we are looking for interested members to join the ranks of the NCO Corps. The CAP NCO Corps is a diverse group of individuals, each bringing unique professional knowledge, skills, and abilities they have attained in their years of military service to our country. They are well suited to mentor CAP's members in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management. The CAP NCO Program is also designed to provide commanders with greater access to the professional military knowledge that the NCO Corps can readily provide.

2. Do you have members in your unit who now hold a CAP Officer grade but previously held an NCO grade in the Armed Forces? If so, this is a chance for those individuals to transition to the NCO Corps and possibly serve in a grade higher than their previous military NCO grade. During the period 1 March 2017 through 28 February 2018, the National Commander has authorized senior members who now hold officer grades to transition to an NCO grade that is commensurate with their CAP experience as well as their military experience. The chart below outlines what grade current CAP officers who held military NCO grades would be able to transition to during this recruiting period. These individuals are not required to meet promotion boards but must submit a CAP Form 2 through channels to receive the appropriate NCO grade...

I haven't seen the rest of the message or the chart. Can anyone care to share?
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« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2017, 03:38:44 PM »

I can share the full memo when I get home. It was announced at my unit on the 2nd of this month.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

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Ozzy
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« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2017, 03:41:42 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
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« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2017, 03:51:14 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

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FW
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« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2017, 04:22:18 PM »

Well, now there is a promotion mechanism for CAP NCOs.  Has the OP's question been answered, or as it has been previously stated, is this just another uniform thread...?
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THRAWN
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« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2017, 04:38:25 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

POOF! I could be an E8! Or I could've had a V8...Just like magic...
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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2017, 10:04:42 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2017, 01:41:23 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.


I mean...the baby step has been going long enough that some of our cadets who joined the military when the plan was announced could qualify for NCO rank soon...
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Eclipse
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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2017, 01:55:43 PM »

The challenge is that the "Problem" for which this is purportedly a "solution" doesn't have a beacon attached
so no one can find it.

A "hasty search" was implemented to try and find it, but by mid afternoon the first day, the one GTL that showed up
had to drive his kid to baseball, and the only aircraft available busted it's 100 hour.

Mission base was shut down with handshakes and songs of "great job, lessons learned", and the rest of the budget was
spent on patches.
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