Source for small (child size) blue flight suits?

[xray328]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

[Alaric]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

[xray328]

O-flights, gets them in the air faster rather than waiting for uniforms. O-flights get them excited about the program.

[stillamarine]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

[Eclipse]

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

Cadets are not allowed to wear the corporate combinations for any reason unless they are over 18.

The idea about shared flightsuits is a good one, just get green.

[foo]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

A) That doesn't seem to be the case for cadets:

1.2.3.2. Cadets will wear the USAF-style uniforms as outlined in this manual as a key component of their cadet experience. However, cadets over age 18 who are not eligible to wear the USAF-style uniforms due to not meeting weight standards are authorized to wear all Corporate-style uniform combinations, except the Corporate Working Uniform since it does not allow for wear of rank insignia.

B) Maybe:

8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

[xray328]

I'll let the uniform experts weigh in here.  I'm only against the green because it doesn't allow any flexibility with cold weather gear. I guess in the grand scheme it only adds $50 for a green flight jacket plus patches etc.

[Alaric]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

One can argue whether FDUs are covered in 1.2.3.2 however you need to have (or have had) an aeronautical rating unless your wing commander has designated otherwise


8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

[THRAWN]

Wear these :http://militarythermals.com/ and the outerwear issue is moot.

[foo]

One can argue whether FDUs are covered in 1.2.3.2 ...

Where in that reg is there room for argument? It's talking about USAF-style vs. Corporate-style in general terms. Clearly cadets can't wear Corporate-style unless they're over 18 and not within height/weight to wear USAF-style.

[xray328]

I've got a cadet that's 4' 2" and 68 lbs...does that count? That's clearly outside the USAF standard [emoji4]


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[Eclipse]

So clearly as written, cadets under 18 are prohibited from wearing any FDU unless their respective Wing CC commander has explicitly
authorized it, which in turn would need at minimum a memo to that effect as a supplement would not be necessary since the
reg itself calls out for the allowance.

Another inexplicable change that makes things harder for members and commanders alike, and because it wasn't
called out in a highlight, has probably left any number of cadets and O-Pilots s in violation of 39-1, 60-1, and 52-7, among others.

This is almost certainly because whomever was trying to make a point about only wearing zoombags while involved in
aviation activities (which is appropriate), never even considered or was aware that cadets wear them for O-rides.

One more thing to be pushed up the chain, considered, hashed, discussed, possibly denied, etc., etc., more wasted time,
no member or organizational benefit, potentially even less cadets flying.

This also means members can't wear a flight suit during initial training, another unintended consequence of rushing
regulations (yeah manual, whatever) out the door at the last minute to meet an artificial deadline without peer and public review.

Well.

Done.

[xray328]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets. Then I see encampment photos being posted all over social media with blatant uniform violations (especially cold weather gear) that nobody says a word about.  I'm assuming Wing CC's are approving that since it's being posted on the Wing Facebook pages (or training groups of Wings Facebook pages)?


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[RogueLeader]

I'm assuming Wing CC's are approving that since it's being posted on the Wing Facebook pages (or training groups of Wings Facebook pages)?

I'd be amazed that Wing/CC's are aware of it at all.  I've found that most are worried about more issues than that (not that I'm disagreeing with your assertion.)  Most Encampment photo's are being uploaded by the PAO's of the Activity, and not doing their due diligence in ensuring the standards are met.  YMMV.

Also as to your assertion of:

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

Some of the issues are put upon us by the Air Force, as you know, are the final check of sanity on our uniform choices.  The other is the difference in what we consider as "best" for cadets is between the scope of the picture that people look at, or to put another way: the short term/long term goals of the program.  The only thing I can say to that reasonable minds can, will, and most certainly do.  If the program is in such a need of change, you should work to be in a position tho change it.

[xray328]

It's the selective enforcement I have an issue with. That and there being more folks looking to tell you why you can't do something than to help figure out a way around it.


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[RogueLeader]

It's the selective enforcement I have an issue with. That and there being more folks looking to tell you why you can't do something than to help figure out a way around it.

Understood.  When it comes to selective enforcement, the phrase that comes to mind is: How much trouble is <insert X action> going to get me in?"  IE, rewards vs consequences. The answer to that has way to many variables to spell out.  For example, is taking a minor butt chewing worth it, likely so; is it worth getting a demotion or terminated from CAP, most likely not; and then there is everything in between.  As there many different places that a person can draw the line of where the risk/reward line is how we get the huge selective enforcement that we see.  I'm not making a judgement call on anybody, but that is where we stand.

The way around is to change the regulation to allow the change that you want.  CAPM 39-1 spells out the procedure to change it.  You can also petition the Wing CC to allow flight suits for cadets on O-rides.  Unfortunately there aren't any other options- other than break the regulations and see where the risk/reward falls for you.

(Please note that I'm not advocating the deliberate violation of any regulation.)

[Alaric]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

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How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit. 

[xray328]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

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How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit.

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



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[Eclipse]

How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit.

You can't require the purchase of BDUs, either, but clearly they are required.

A tenant of the CP, and all but required pre regulation, is to get cadets in the air within 90 days.  Outerwear notwithstanding,
they can't fly out of uniform, and don't get a uniform now until well after they get their Curry, right there is a "wall" for some cadets and units.

We're trying to fly cadets who joined around Christmas in the next week or two - the uniform issue is a real impediment to putting them
in a plane.  Creative minds can find ways, but Unit CC's shouldn't have to be "creative". Flight academies and gliders can fly in
civilian clothes or t-shirts, why not new cadets?

[kwe1009]

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



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Depending on the size of the cadet and the FDU, you can put on a lot of layers under the FDU to stay warm.  For just getting new cadets in the air, a flight suit is probably the worst option though.  In addition to the cost of the flight suit you have to add another $10 or so for the leather patch that is only used on the FDU. 

ABU/BDU should be a quick and easy purchase and something the cadets will wear way more than a flight suit.  We have even had cadets borrow another cadet's BDUs in order to fly.  My squadron always purchased the name tapes for new cadets so they just had to buy the uniform (if we didn't have their size in inventory) and get the name tapes sewn on.  That normally only took a week or two.