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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2016, 02:33:35 PM »

I just confirmed that the cadets are flying at NESA with the GIIEP equipment on a "C" mission which qualifies them to wear the aircrew wings.

Only those over 18 correct?
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xray328
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2016, 02:36:03 PM »

No, I specifically asked about cadets under 18.


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« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:39:32 PM by xray328 » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2016, 02:55:01 PM »

No, I specifically asked about cadets under 18.

OK, I know who you talked to, so I don't question this is happening,  but the whole thing is "odd".

How can they even release the flight with a cadet under 18 on board as part of crew? (or for anything other then a transport mission?)

Does this preclude the requirement that the PIC be an instructor pilot to carry cadets? (these aren't o-rides)

Why are these being done as C-Missions?  GIIEP training is clearly an AFAM normally, at minimum these should go as "B" unfunded.
Did someone do ORM math on under 18 cadets as part of aircrew and think doing it as a "C" un-regs the minimum 18 Year old requirement for all other A/C jobs?

This also conflicts with what the NESA / GIIEP website says (which doesn't necessarily mean much).

Does anyone have a copy of the secret-squirrel GIIEP SQTR?

Is there anyone from the MAS who can comment here?
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THRAWN
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2016, 02:57:56 PM »

Just a random question and it's mostly because I'm doing 4 other things and can't look it up. Where is the requirement that Cadets be 18 to be aircrew? PM me if you'd like to answer with colorful metaphors.
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2016, 03:02:53 PM »

Just a random question and it's mostly because I'm doing 4 other things and can't look it up. Where is the requirement that Cadets be 18 to be aircrew? PM me if you'd like to answer with colorful metaphors.

The AP/MS/MO/MP/GFSO SQTRS make that a pre-req. "Age Eligibility 18 Years".

Of course GIIEP and HRO are not available to view, so don't know what those say - may be an omission, intentional or otherwise.

I don't see any reason why cadets under 18 couldn't be ground station operators, but A/C is a different story.
I would also think it would make common sense that a GIIEP operator needs to be an MS first as a pre-req.  You can't be an AP without that.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 03:09:44 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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THRAWN
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2016, 03:08:05 PM »

Thanks. Just a thought though, if it's not a regulatory requirement, where's the issue? Lots of CAPDOCS say a lot of stuff, but if it isn't in the reg, kind of makes it not enforcable.
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2016, 03:10:47 PM »

Thanks. Just a thought though, if it's not a regulatory requirement, where's the issue? Lots of CAPDOCS say a lot of stuff, but if it isn't in the reg, kind of makes it not enforcable.

Can't argue that philosophically, but from a practical standpoint, you can't approve even fam / prep or trainee status without
either meeting that or falsifying that.

Edit: 60-3 calls out the SQTRs as the qualifying requirements, ergo...
See page 25
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf

"a. First, prerequisites must be completed prior to initiating training requirements. "
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 03:15:44 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

husker
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2016, 03:42:06 PM »

Spam - neither NESA nor WESS hands out the badge unless they have actually graduated the program (which includes passing all of the tasks, etc.).  During each graduation, I have a list of students behind me who I do not hand the badge to, and someone behind me reminding me as each team comes up.   If we have handed out the badges to those who are not eligible for the ratings, then that is on us (me).  I would like to know the specifics (and certainly please let me know if you run into it again) so that I can rectify the situation.   You absolutely have the right to question members coming back with "bling" from any school, and hope that you give me the opportunity to fix any issues you see.   We have a great system to track the tasks and upload them automatically into OpsQuals, so there is not much room for error. By the same token I hand out badges to pretty close to 500 people a year between WESS and NESA, so the "error field" is large.

I did confirm with LTC Templeton (the MAS Commandant at NESA) that under 18 cadets in GIIEP at NESA do NOT fly.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 04:03:55 PM by husker » Logged
Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2016, 04:01:38 PM »

I did confirm with LTC Templeton (the MAS Commandant at NESA) that under 18 cadets in GIIEP at NESA do NOT fly.

Well there you go - Thanks Husker!
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2016, 07:58:42 PM »

Spam - neither NESA nor WESS hands out the badge unless they have actually graduated the program (which includes passing all of the tasks, etc.).  During each graduation, I have a list of students behind me who I do not hand the badge to, and someone behind me reminding me as each team comes up.   If we have handed out the badges to those who are not eligible for the ratings, then that is on us (me).  I would like to know the specifics (and certainly please let me know if you run into it again) so that I can rectify the situation.   You absolutely have the right to question members coming back with "bling" from any school, and hope that you give me the opportunity to fix any issues you see.   We have a great system to track the tasks and upload them automatically into OpsQuals, so there is not much room for error. By the same token I hand out badges to pretty close to 500 people a year between WESS and NESA, so the "error field" is large.

I did confirm with LTC Templeton (the MAS Commandant at NESA) that under 18 cadets in GIIEP at NESA do NOT fly.

You'll keep seeing our folks - we greatly appreciate the consistently high standard of training and certification at these events. Y'all do good work.

I knew you'd have the right answer, sir. Thanks!

V/r
Spam




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Fubar
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2016, 11:24:07 PM »

I did confirm with LTC Templeton (the MAS Commandant at NESA) that under 18 cadets in GIIEP at NESA do NOT fly.

Can you complete the GIIEP SQTR without flying? This would suggest cadets under 18 cannot earn the qualification.
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waukwiz
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2016, 09:25:18 AM »

There was a GIIEP training at my squadron several months ago, and I know of at least one cadet under age 18 received GIIEP quals for it.

Cadet Cullen Mayes
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
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Fubar
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2016, 03:57:43 PM »

There was a GIIEP training at my squadron several months ago, and I know of at least one cadet under age 18 received GIIEP quals for it.

Does the SQTR involve any required flights/sorties?
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waukwiz
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2016, 05:02:54 PM »

There was a GIIEP training at my squadron several months ago, and I know of at least one cadet under age 18 received GIIEP quals for it.

Does the SQTR involve any required flights/sorties?
Would have to ask him, and he doesn't like answering my texts   so likely the earliest I could get you an answer is a week from today.

Cadet Cullen Mayes
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
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Eclipse
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2016, 05:29:08 PM »

Why isn't this magic SQTR publicly available?
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

xray328
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Unit: IL-189

« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2016, 06:36:15 PM »

My daughter wants to go to this (GIIEP) but I'm not even sure what rating she comes away with.  It bothers me that there's so many unknowns.  With the SQTR not available are we sure cadets aren't flying under C missions numbers?  I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but if she goes down there and gets hurt I just want to make sure she's covered.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2016, 06:36:58 PM »

As a commander, I would not approve aircrew wings if an individual completes the qualification without air sorties? Why? Because it's an aircrew badge. You must be an aircrew member to earn the badge. And cadets under 18 cannot be aircrew members. It's that simple.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2016, 06:40:19 PM »

My daughter wants to go to this (GIIEP) but I'm not even sure what rating she comes away with.  It bothers me that there's so many unknowns.  With the SQTR not available are we sure cadets aren't flying under C missions numbers?  I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but if she goes down there and gets hurt I just want to make sure she's covered.

Cadets (or any members for that matter) should not be pursuing training just to earn a badge or rating. I know of cadets who assist with GIIEP in the ground and are quite good at it. At the end, it's about the skills and experience acquired and how they can later contribute to executing our missions.

Of course, your questions and concerns regarding the flying portion are very valid. This information should be available, just like other SQTRs.
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xray328
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2016, 06:46:38 PM »

My daughter wants to go to this (GIIEP) but I'm not even sure what rating she comes away with.  It bothers me that there's so many unknowns.  With the SQTR not available are we sure cadets aren't flying under C missions numbers?  I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but if she goes down there and gets hurt I just want to make sure she's covered.

Cadets (or any members for that matter) should not be pursuing training just to earn a badge or rating. I know of cadets who assist with GIIEP in the ground and are quite good at it. At the end, it's about the skills and experience acquired and how they can later contribute to executing our missions.

Of course, your questions and concerns regarding the flying portion are very valid. This information should be available, just like other SQTRs.

I agree, but we don't know what training they do receive, period. 
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xray328
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2016, 06:50:38 PM »

And just so we're all clear, under 18 cadets can't fly on Corporate Missions right?  There's no manipulation of the rules that could maybe let this happen?
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadets under 18 wearing aircrew wings
 


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