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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 496
Unit: IL-189

« on: December 26, 2016, 05:38:11 PM »

Can cadets that successfully complete the GIIEP course at NESA (ground based training) wear aircrew wings? I don't see anything in the 39-1 or on the NESA site, thanks.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,758

« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2016, 07:07:08 PM »

Well, the 39-1 does not cover the Qualifications needed to earn the wings, just where to put them once you're awarded them.
This sounds like an excellent research project for your cadet. Find which reg or manual covers this and see if they qualify.
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SMWOG
Member

Posts: 83
Unit: NER NY

« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2016, 07:24:36 PM »

Are you a scanner? What does your 101 card say?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2016, 09:39:47 PM »

You have to be over 18 to earn the wings - cadets under 18 only participate in ground-based training.

CAPR 35-6 Page 2:
"j. CAP Aircrew Rating: Be qualified as a CAP Mission Scanner (MS), Aerial Digital
Imaging System Operator (ADIS), Airborne Photographer (AP), ARCHER Operator
(ARCHOPR), ARCHER Trac Technician (ARCHTRK), Geospatial Information Interoperability
Exploitation Portable Operator (GIIEP), Surrogate Unmanned Aerial System Green Flag Sensor
Operator (GFSO), or Highbird Radio Operator (HRO).
"

Without sorties they won't be qualified as GIIEP, in fact, under 18 there's no way they could fly the requisite sorties.

My understanding was you had to be a Mission Scanner before training for GIIEP, but I can't confirm that as there still is no GIIEP SQTR
publicly available.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,758

« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 09:59:03 PM »

You have to be over 18 to earn the wings - cadets under 18 only participate in ground-based training.

CAPR 35-6 Page 2:
"j. CAP Aircrew Rating: Be qualified as a CAP Mission Scanner (MS), Aerial Digital
Imaging System Operator (ADIS), Airborne Photographer (AP), ARCHER Operator
(ARCHOPR), ARCHER Trac Technician (ARCHTRK), Geospatial Information Interoperability
Exploitation Portable Operator (GIIEP), Surrogate Unmanned Aerial System Green Flag Sensor
Operator (GFSO), or Highbird Radio Operator (HRO).
"

Without sorties they won't be qualified as GIIEP, in fact, under 18 there's no way they could fly the requisite sorties.

My understanding was you had to be a Mission Scanner before training for GIIEP, but I can't confirm that as there still is no GIIEP SQTR
publicly available.

Thanks Bob, kinda wanted the cadet to do the research. But they don't have to now since you did it for them.
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abdsp51
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Unit: Classified

« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2016, 10:13:56 PM »

The OP is not a cadet but a SM and parent of 2 cadets. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 10:16:01 PM »

Thanks Bob, kinda wanted the cadet to do the research. But they don't have to now since you did it for them.

For starters, this isn't a cadet asking the question.

Second, going into the new year I'm going to try to answer straight questions like this with straight answers.
We've tried it the other way for ten+ years, let's see where being helpful gets us.
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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 496
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2016, 11:36:30 PM »

Reason I'm asking is that I saw a cadet wearing them and he stated that cadets that graduated NESA's GIIEP course are authorized. NESA offers cadets the training, In just not sure on the wearing the aircrew wings, I'd always thought that was something you couldn't earn until you were 18 or if GIIEP=Aircrew (even for the guys on the ground). I know it says cadets only get ground based training though.

According to the NESA site don't need to be a scanner. GTM and UDF will also get you in the door.

http://nesa.cap.gov/giiep-operator/


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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2016, 11:53:57 PM »

http://nesa.cap.gov/giiep-operator/

"Cadets under the age of 18 will complete ground based exercises. Cadets age 18 or older and senior members will complete airborne exercises. All participants will receive the same classroom training."

Your first problem was "...a cadet stated...".     :o

There's no allowance, at least not in the regs, to earn Flightcrew Wings under 18.

Your best bet would be to contact on of the guys running the GIIEP school who is in your wing.
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Spam
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Posts: 872
Unit: GA-001/CV

« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 11:54:25 PM »

Several times in recent years, I've had members return from NESA and other Wing level schools (e.g. ALWG WESS school) proudly sporting devices on their uniform that had not been officially awarded on any orders (either in eservices or in cut orders on paper).  That includes under 18s returning with GTM basic and senior badges, and two over 18 cadets wearing aircrew wings (MO). I've had to patiently explain to them that the decoration is separate from the rating, which is all that the schools can offer, and that they need to remove the decoration until my staff and I look up their quals and cut the official orders. Typically we try to brief them before they attend, and ask that they refrain until we can richly applaud them publicly and wing them on their return. (I know LTC Long and others will be reading this, and would be interested in their thoughts... pinning people prematurely at the activity without competent orders leads to long term problems, in my view).


Now, a cadet who stated that he was authorized to ATTEND and GRADUATE the GIIEP school, I can believe. Attendance though does not equate to the rating (especially for the under 18 non flying option), and without the qualification the decoration should not be awarded. If he cannot provide the paper orders or show the eservices action he, like any member, needs to remove the device from his uniform.


Of course, if he isn't in your chain, Xray, the tactful thing to do is to have a quiet chat with his commander.


V/r
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2016, 12:06:11 AM »

All NGSAR graduates receive a PA awarding the badge appropriate to their course. This is consistent with CAPR 35-6 sec 8.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2016, 12:12:42 AM »

That includes under 18s returning with GTM basic and senior badges, and two over 18 cadets wearing aircrew wings (MO). I've had to patiently explain to them that the decoration is separate from the rating, which is all that the schools can offer, and that they need to remove the decoration until my staff and I look up their quals and cut the official orders. Typically we try to brief them before they attend, and ask that they refrain until we can richly applaud them publicly and wing them on their return.

No, it is not, at least not for the initial award.

NESA, at least, is a national school, and their authority to award qualifications is also national.  Your need to "cut orders" (whatever that means) pre-supposes you have the authority to deny the award, which you do not.

The members earn the qualification and requisite badge upon ceritfication of the activity director with the
appropriate rights, and your approval is not necessary orrequired, nor do you have the authority to
revoke a qualification or badge without cause, nor request a member remove the badge pending your "award".

CAPR 35-6 Page 4-5
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_006_70213217D50CA.pdf
8. Procedures for Awarding Aeronautical Ratings and Awards, Emergency Services
(ES), Ground Team, and Incident Commander Badges, and ES Patches:

a. Awards will automatically be recorded when requirements for qualifications or
certifications are earned
and approved in the National Headquarters Operations Qualifications or
other CAP membership systems hosted by National Headquarters
; other awards will be manually
entered. Members may be required to provide proof that they meet the requirements of this
regulation in order for commanders to approve higher level awards or historic awards properly.
School/activity directors will publish and input certified graduate lists into the National
Headquarters Operations Qualifications and membership systems to avoid inundating command
echelons with award requests. NHQ CAP/DO will coordinate limited access for approved
school/activity directors to the National Headquarters qualification and certification system with
NHQ/IT to input their certifications; requests for access should be sent to do@capnhq.gov at
least 30 days in advance of the school/activity.

b. CAP wing or region commanders (or their designees) and school/activity directors, as
appropriate, are the approval authority for the award of aeronautical ratings, ES qualification,
ground team, or incident commander badges, and ES patches
to members within their
organization. Each wing and region is encouraged to host schools like the National Emergency
Services Academy with the intent of qualifying their members. All schools must ensure trainees
meet the current regulatory requirements for qualification in the specialty before ratings are
awarded.

c. When the wing or region commander (or their designees) approves the request, or the
school/activity director certifies completion, the appropriate entry will automatically be made in
the memberís online records.

d. Ratings are effective the date the entry is approved by the wing or region commander
(or their designees), or the date the school/activity director certifies completion as appropriate in
the National Headquarters Operations Qualifications system.

e. Once a rating, award, badge, or patch is earned in accordance with this regulation, the
member may continue to wear it even if they no longer hold the associated qualifications unless
directed by the wing, region, or national commander to remove it through another formal
command action.


Note also that a unit CC does not have the authority to order a member remove a badge earned as above.

If the box isn't checked in Ops Quals when they get back, that's an administrative oversight, not
a cause to tell someone to remove a badge they just spent 1-2 weeks earning.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,455

« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2016, 12:25:54 AM »

I had a cadet that went to a Group bivouac with no ES tasks except GES. When he came back he had GTM 3 Training, short one of the sorties for the full GTM qualification. His record had the ES patch approved. I do not know how, but I made sure I removed that thing.

Maybe by mistake these cadets are awarded these aeronautical and ES ratings. Someone may be doing a multi-CAPID update. So we have to keep checking their records. And I never do those. I go one by one whenever I have to update a cadet record whether it is safety or ES.
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Spam
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Unit: GA-001/CV

« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2016, 02:24:28 AM »

You are incorrect, Eclipse. YES, it is separate, in terms of the Ops Quals sub module. You need to go look at Ops Quals, Eclipse, and explore the "Ratings, Awards & Badges" sub module, which is not linked automatically to the qual modules. Subparagraphs A and D, quoted and boldfaced, do not reflect Ops Quals reality. One must separately enter/submit/approve the qual, then go into the separate sub module for the award. I'm pleased to accept that when I see it (but it isn't automatic, and it rarely happens).


I'd like to retract the single phrase in my above post, "which is all that the schools can offer". Obviously, I'm out of date there.

Nevertheless, we still see people come home from various activities without either the hand carried 2A, or the online award in Ops Quals (either of which I'd accept). For several years, we waited weeks without seeing either, so this is the process we follow for quality control. We brief them before they go as part of their prep, we review their Ops Quals records on return (where they invariably are properly updated for their qualifications) and then I approve the badge, done. There's no mistrust of the training, just that we're OBSERVING that the wings/badges usually aren't being awarded, and that we take steps to make the orders match reality.

I mention quality control since years ago we saw confused instances where, for example, a cadet once donned a Senior GT badge after completing the basic school (only), because their pals had completed the advanced course, and he mistakenly assumed the same applied to him. I had another cadet who jumped the gun and started wearing her badge before completing the full requirement on a multi-weekend Wing school. Yes, I absolutely have the responsibility as a CO to correct that, because in such instances the member had not yet earned the award.

For a standard, even and impartial treatment we do this review for all returning members. Years ago, prior to the 2015 dumbing down of the requirement. I caught flak from around our Wing because I had four or five cadets wearing Senior GT badges (with the star) showing up to missions with our four adult GTLs with Master GT badges, and we had people stating that we were "obviously making this stuff up"... so, in reaction, we trust, but verify, impartially, and thus I can answer to my chain that we're strac and correct.

Commanders absolutely have the authority (and are required to) review member decorations to ensure we're compliant. The paperwork must match the bling, or it comes off until we fix the paperwork or complete the training.


Spam
PS. Luis, you're right on track there. Trust but verify, as Reagan said.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2016, 02:54:56 AM »

You are incorrect, Eclipse. YES, it is separate, in terms of the Ops Quals sub module. You need to go look at Ops Quals, Eclipse, and explore the "Ratings, Awards & Badges" sub module, which is not linked automatically to the qual modules. Subparagraphs A and D, quoted and boldfaced, do not reflect Ops Quals reality. One must separately enter/submit/approve the qual, then go into the separate sub module for the award. I'm pleased to accept that when I see it (but it isn't automatic, and it rarely happens).

I never said it was "linked" in anything.  By the regulation quoted, the badge is awarded upon completion / entry in
ops quals - whether or not the box is checked in a sub module is irrelevant, nor is any action beyond a click required, and certainly not a 2A, which has never, ever been required for any ES badges - I can't tell you how many times someone has tried to assert that GT badges and wings require an "other" F2a.  No, they were earned when you completed the rating
when it was approved with no further action required.

As I said above, this is an administrative disconnect and shouldn't even be mentioned to the member beyond "I took care of it for you."

If for some reason paper is important, then the signed SQTR would be the only appropriate document, which would unfortunately still have to be entered and validated by the SET(s) online anyway.

Commanders absolutely have the authority (and are required to) review member decorations to ensure we're compliant. The paperwork must match the bling, or it comes off until we fix the paperwork or complete the training.

That goes without saying but is not what you said your practice is / was, and which now hopefully will cease.

...they need to remove the decoration until my staff and I look up their quals and cut the official orders.

"Years ago" 1/2 the country used the WMU for ES ratings and the other 1/2 used a stegosaurus bone etched with cut marks.  Today everyone uses eServices and qualifications are nationally recognized, including SET with no allowance for
"extra" rules.  There's nothing wrong with verifying ratings - it takes 45 seconds - after which you can
then congratulate the member on their accomplishment, but only in cases where the verification fails can you
direct them to remove any badges.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 03:02:10 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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Spam
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Unit: GA-001/CV

« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2016, 06:17:34 AM »

Oh, because you didnt say it, it isn't so?


This has been discussed and settled before. Storm Chaser summarized it nicely. You simply don't understand how it works, apparently:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18774.0 and persist in letting your ego stand in the way of looking at the system.


"whether or not the box is checked in a sub module is irrelevant". Sure. You go ahead and tell people they're approved without due diligence, then check their online records (the award wont show, because the wings aren't authorized in the system). But, you'll probably be OK with them pinning on, onto their civilian coats of many colors as well.


Your ego... sheesh.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2016, 11:29:04 AM »

This has been discussed and settled before. Storm Chaser summarized it nicely. You simply don't understand how it works, apparently:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18774.0 and persist in letting your ego stand in the way of looking at the system.

The "system" being broken doesn't change the very clear verbiage of the regulation.

The badge is not earned separately, it's earned upon completion of the requisite qualification, tracking them in eServices is an administrative function
unrelated to the authorization to wear them.  Please cite anywhere it indicates the badge itself has to be approved a second time for the member to wear it.

Senior and Master A/C ratings are an anomaly unto themselves as there is no process beyond a CC's subjective review of log books and time-in for approval,
however that doesn't change the verbiage in the regulation that upon that review and approval, the badge is "approved", whether or not it's been clicked in Ops Quals,
which isn't even mentioned.

The only reason that module exist at all as a separate entity from the quals themselves, is to maintain a historical record of them being earned
because "some commanders" were telling members who weren't current they had to remove their badges because there was no record in their
files (or sometimes no files) of earning it / them in the past, owing again to the member's Stegosaurus bone not having the proper etchings.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 136

« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2016, 02:09:44 PM »

My wing recently communicated to its members that ES badges should not be worn until the rating is approved in eServices, even if all of the individual SQTR tasks have been checked off.

Quote from: CAPM 35-6 8(a)
Awards will automatically be recorded when requirements for qualifications or certifications are earned and approved in the National Headquarters Operations Qualifications or other CAP membership systems hosted by National Headquarters

Seems clear enough to me. Completing all of the SQTR tasks goes to meeting the requirements, but there is no rating until it is approved.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2016, 02:15:18 PM »

My wing recently communicated to its members that ES badges should not be worn until the rating is approved in eServices, even if all of the individual SQTR tasks have been checked off.

Quote from: CAPM 35-6 8(a)
Awards will automatically be recorded when requirements for qualifications or certifications are earned and approved in the National Headquarters Operations Qualifications or other CAP membership systems hosted by National Headquarters

Seems clear enough to me. Completing all of the SQTR tasks goes to meeting the requirements, but there is no rating until it is approved.

Agreed - At least in the case of NESA, which is what this is primarily discussing, those ratings are fully approved by the activity with no further action required.
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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 496
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2016, 02:24:29 PM »

I just confirmed that the cadets are flying at NESA with the GIIEP equipment on a "C" mission which qualifies them to wear the aircrew wings.


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