Cold Weather Gear - ABU

[Tim Day]

We could either:

1.  Follow and enforce our existing rules and require that cadets purchase some combination of the fleece and Gortex.  On the plus side, these are our existing rules and this is kind of the default "answer."  Some have pointed out that Gortex jackets may be purchased relatively inexpensively on places like eBay or perhaps locally.  Some units might have the ability to stock some cold weather gear and issue it before an activity.  On the downside, most units do not have the ability to do that.  It seems likely that even with thermals, authorized gloves, and earmuffs, a Gortex jacket may not be warm enough for some routine activities like WAA with even a mild wind blowing.  I suspect the expense and difficulty in outfitting cadets with adequate cold weather gear is why many unit commanders allow cadets to wear civilian outer wear, despite the prohibitions in the 39-1.  A "lesser-of-two-evils" approach that accomplishes the mission while caring for the troops.  But it is doctrinally improper.

2.  Alter the interim ABU guidance to legitimate the existing improper practice of allowing cadets to wear civilian outer wear in adverse conditions.  Obviously, that would affect uniform appearance, but is at least consistent with accomplishing the mission.

3.  Convince the AF to kick down trailer loads of parkas and watch caps.  Seems like a long-term solution at best.  In the meantime I've got a lot of cadet-sicles.

4.  Something else I can't think of. 

It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner.  And a watch cap.  And some gloves.

Please keep the conversation going.  What am I missing?

What about authorizing civilian clothing for some activities? We are considering several less-than-ideal, fiscally-constrained options.

Let's say we're helping with crowd control, communications, and truck-unload monitoring at WAA Arlington National Cemetery. Cadet Snuffy wants to help, but doesn't have BDU or ABU jackets, and the squadron has already allocated their loaners. Cadet Snuffy goes wearing civilian cloths and his warm civilian jacket and gets to wear a reflective vest with "CAP" emblazoned on it. CAP gets credit. He gets to actively participate. The USAF-style uniform isn't degraded by mixing with civilian clothing.

Organizations like WAA appreciate our support because we provide them with needed capability. What we wear is irrelevant to them. Allowing the wear of unmixed civilian clothing with appropriate identifying accessories honors the uniform and removes a barrier to participation.

[Spam]

LTC Day, that's a good suggestion.

Last month, we camped out at a state park in northern AL, and toured Marshall Space Flight Center. To maximize the number of new cadets who could attend, I authorized "PT Uniform" (essentially our squadron T shirt and all civvies) for the ride up and the overnight camping in cold weather, and field uniforms (BDU/ABUs) for the facility tour and return.  Had a good turnout, we were uniform, and people were warm and safe.

Acceptable, in my view, when we're not mixing uniform with civilian clothing. Acceptable when we're not appearing as reps of the USAF on an AFAM. Acceptable in that the members were uniformly and neatly attired when they were in the public eye (in the relative warmth of the museum and busses). Entirely planned and structured to accommodate and motivate newer members with limited gear/uniform to date, and it worked well.


Ned, you said:  "It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner". Can we state again, that the current NHQ guidance is that they can wear those items with the ABUs, and get off this point?


Toad, my folks never bought me a thing as a cadet. I mowed lawns to buy field gear and boots, etc. I wanted gear so badly I worked my butt off, and sweated to earn it. As I'd said before, in several of my units we've had a history of doing fund raisers to buy and stock field jackets and gear, and if cadets really want a motivating activity - there you go. Build the unit, pay it forward, but motivate them to earn it, and wear it properly to build on positive public image. I could cite several instances where we've heard nonmembers at FBOs commenting about sloppy members from other units, which made our people bristle and mutter "Don't Be That Guy".


Encourage, gradually assimilate, and motivate your people, but don't coddle them, hold to standards, and don't let people comment about them that they are "That Guy".


V/r
Spam

[stitchmom]

Youth may not have the resources to start a lawn mowing business. Around here they would have to travel into the suburbs to find a lawn which is not practical without a vehicle.  Secondly the mostly (white) population there get upset that kids from the city are brought there to trick or treat. Do you think they are going to hire them to work on their property? They love to support "ministries" that work with city kids but most want them kept in the city.

Why is there such  a Pull Yourself Up By The Bootstrap mentality on here to pay for uniforms? We don't expect them to mow lawns or beg to wash cars to rent the building.

[stitchmom]

No, I can not mandate an item of equipment. However, the event is not mandatory, it is voluntary. And you are not required to attend if you can't kit yourself out properly. Get a paper route, or do odd jobs to earn money, then enjoy, go and get the gear. Giving things away takes away the value of when it has been earned.

Is it "fair", maybe not, but life was never designed to be fair. If you are really motivated, you will make it happen.

This is a bourgeois view that willpower = economic opportunity. It's not that simple for the poor.

[vorteks]

[THRAWN]

Youth may not have the resources to start a lawn mowing business. Around here they would have to travel into the suburbs to find a lawn which is not practical without a vehicle.  Secondly the mostly (white) population there get upset that kids from the city are brought there to trick or treat. Do you think they are going to hire them to work on their property? They love to support "ministries" that work with city kids but most want them kept in the city.

Why is there such  a Pull Yourself Up By The Bootstrap mentality on here to pay for uniforms? We don't expect them to mow lawns or beg to wash cars to rent the building.

And of course, that's the only way to generate cash flow. Uniforms are a choice. If you want to do projects and activities outside of the weekly unit meeting, you're going to need additional quantities and types of uniforms. Part of the cadet program is character development. Part of that is personal responsibility, discipline, and development of self reliance. That is how funds are generated. Or you could just teach your cadets to expect hand outs, Veruca.

[Shawn W.]

Here's an honest question from a guy who lives in a part of the country where even a overnight freeze is a rare thing:

In freezing (and below) weather, are the currently authorized ABU outer garments (some combination of the fleece and the gortex parka) warm enough for field work ?  Especially with just an ABU hat?

Ned,

To answer that question from someone who lives in MN where the temps this week are not above 5 above and are getting down to 20 below or lower at night, the ABUs, Fleece, Parka and Hat are no where near warm enough for just going to a regular squadron meeting, let alone any type of mission work.

Thanks,

SW

[Eclipse]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

[Spam]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

Point by point, as you've clearly come back out of your cave at me, breathing rancor:

My unit doesn't have a retention issue. Check those unit pages you've apparently visited, and for almost every cadet in those pics, I'd tell you about these three at USAFA, that one currently carries "The Football" for the CINC, that one is in pilot training at Pcola, etc. Clearly, we are attracting, retaining, and helping cadets go on to meet challenges, by holding the bar high, not meeting challenges FOR them.

I am, further, not clearly "proud" to send cadets or officers home. I very rarely have had to do so. However, I have done so in cases where they're not safely attired (where you, by your comments, are happy to keep them around in poorly suited clothing "shivering"). Who is proud here?

I can do little about my senior leadership other than advise them (which I've done as a DCP and a subordinate commander, and have done on this issue, through channels, helping to get ancillary gear approved). What have you done sir, other than [censored] and insult?

I have three sons, two of them cadets (1 C/LT, 1 C/CPT), who all do lawncare, and who pet sit, and who referee sports, and... etc. My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments. My 11 year old is working his rear off to save for his uniforms for when he'll be eligible to join.

Which brings me full circle to preparing cadets for life; I for one love to see cadets taking charge of their own lives without depending on handouts. I believe that self reliance and charity and teamwork are American core values, and those are all part and parcel of my responses, how I raise my sons, and how I administer my little corner of our volunteer program. Without the bitterness.

Sincerely,
Spam

Update: apologies to the mods for the use of the above word - may I substitute "complain" for the vernacular, please.

[68w20]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This.  I'd like to know if Spam, et al have collected any data on retention of Cadets sent home from activities due to lack of "required" cold weather gear.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

The point made here about adolescence is key.  We tend to forget that the Cadets that we're dealing with are developing their brains.  Not in an abstract "they have so much to learn" sense, but in a literal, physical sense.  Their brains are developing, and a part of that is that they often do not make connections that we think are "common sense."  If we send a Cadet home from encampment because they didn't go buy a specific coat, they're not going to congratulate you on your adherence to the regulation.  They're going to be angry and frustrated that they have to wait another year for their Mitchell Award because someone "important" made an unreasonable call.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

This point is key as well.  The academic and extracurricular expectations for are Cadets are far beyond most of the experiences of our Senior Members.  Having 20, 15, or even 5 hours a week for a part time job is not a matter of "buckling down and working" for many of our Cadets.  Having that job means that they're getting 5 hours of sleep a night instead of 7, or failing key exams that determine whether or not they have the career they want.  Are we going to demand that of them so that a formation is uniform?

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

Agreed.  We have literally dozens of important lessons to teach to our Cadets, and uniformity is one of them.  It is not, however, reasonable or practical to send Cadets home because they didn't buy one specific coat that they could only wear at one or two events throughout the year.  Encourage them to purchase it, yes, but don't turn them away because it'll clash.

[Eclipse]

My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments.

What's great about the internet is that you can generally tell when you are on the right track when the
argument turns personal - thank you.

The only thing I will respond to directly is this nonsense about cadets "shivering" - you seem to have an
issue when people choose safety over appearance, but no one here said they were leaving cadets in the cold because of not having
uniform outerwear, in fact quite the opposite.

[Spam]

My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments.

What's great about the internet is that you can generally tell when you are on the right track when the
argument turns personal - thank you.

Aw, rats... I fed the Troll.  Sorry everyone, I forgot how he lives off of this.

Spam

[Storm Chaser]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

[PHall]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

[arajca]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

In ABU or woodland pattern. Or the woodland pattern field jacket.

[Storm Chaser]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

There are a lot of things that are not covered in the ABU Wear Instructions. Omission or prohibition?

[xray328]

My two reported back that they were fine with the fleece today (with proper layering). Apparently they need warmer boots (or thicker socks?) though...does it ever end ☺


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stitchmom]

Nope put hunting boots on your list!

[Okayish Aviator]

God, I'm so glad I'm living in FL right now where the temp during the day is still 78+. lol.

[Eclipse]

My two reported back that they were fine with the fleece today (with proper layering). Apparently they need warmer boots (or thicker socks?) though...does it ever end ☺

The forecast freezing rain never showed up (at least in the Northana Area) and the temps were actually pretty manageable.  It's only
started snowing in the last couple of hours here, most of the day was very dry, it was actually a fairly decent day to be doing WoA, though
I could see feet being an issue, especially if they got wet.