Cold Weather Gear - ABU

[Eclipse]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Yes, they should be sent home. A packing list was sent out, items were not procured, Cadet can not safely participate.  This can also be a valuable lesson. Don't expect everyone else to wipe your butt for you, you are responsible for your gear.

[xray328]

I'm happy if we can wear a warm hat and gloves. The fleece is surprisingly warm and I'd imagine that and some thermal underwear would be enough for activities outside of ice bowls and other extreme winter events. That fleece is $25 all day long on eBay.  Now if we could just get that darn rank tab...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[foo]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

He already answered that question earlier using language I think could not be clearer. It seems all you did here was to try discrediting him by mining his squadron's web site for pictures of uniform violations. Too bad you couldn't score anything more recent than a sixteen-year-old event.

[Eclipse]

Yes, they should be sent home. A packing list was sent out, items were not procured, Cadet can not safely participate.  This can also be a valuable lesson. Don't expect everyone else to wipe your butt for you, you are responsible for your gear.

And when the response is:

A - I can't afford it?

B - Unless CAP issued it, you can't mandate the wear of any item other then the MBU?

I've already indicated I agree philosophically, good luck with Mom when they are standing in front of you.

[CAPDCCMOM]

No, I can not mandate an item of equipment. However, the event is not mandatory, it is voluntary. And you are not required to attend if you can't kit yourself out properly. Get a paper route, or do odd jobs to earn money, then enjoy, go and get the gear. Giving things away takes away the value of when it has been earned.

Is it "fair", maybe not, but life was never designed to be fair. If you are really motivated, you will make it happen.

[stitchmom]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

Squadrons should have a pre-activity packing check with senior members who know.

It takes 5 minutes to make a call or send an email Does Cadet have everything on the list or do you have any questions about the list.

[THRAWN]

This is an interesting topic. Someone mentioned organizational issue. I was fortunate to be in 2 units that did this. We would have fundraisers through the year to procure and maintain the stock of cold and wet weather gear. It helps.

[USACAP]

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.
Let's display a modicum of sanity.

at this time the sage green watch cap is not authorized

YES! Thank you.
There is so much common sense in your post my head spun.
When I was a cadet, 3 decades ago, I was embarrassingly poor.
My squadron (and wing and an NCSE or 2) worked with me and let me slide on some things here and there esp until I had a real job.
This is a volunteer organization. Nothing is 100%.
The active military often has more lax uniform regs in the winter too.
Keep the best interest of the cadet in mind.
Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

So the kid is safe and dry, but non-compliant.

TLC says we should always work with a cadet's best interest at heart.

[abdsp51]

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs. 

[USACAP]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

[abdsp51]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

[xray328]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

I agree we should follow regs but we also have a responsibility to take care of other peoples children. We should never let's the regs (especially uniform regs) get in the way of common sense. Active duty is one thing, but these are people's kids and in the moment I'm taking care of the kid every time. We can say things like "cadets wouldn't be in these situations with proper planning" but we live in the real world and we all know that things don't always go according to plan despite our best efforts or intentions.   Again, I just hope people know that "regs" shouldn't get in the way of common sense.  If Johnny's ears are turning purple put a hat (black sage or otherwise) on the kids head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spam]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

I agree we should follow regs but we also have a responsibility to take care of other peoples children. We should never let's the regs (especially uniform regs) get in the way of common sense. Active duty is one thing, but these are people's kids and in the moment I'm taking care of the kid every time. We can say things like "cadets wouldn't be in these situations with proper planning" but we live in the real world and we all know that things don't always go according to plan despite our best efforts or intentions.   Again, I just hope people know that "regs" shouldn't get in the way of common sense.  If Johnny's ears are turning purple put a hat (black sage or otherwise) on the kids head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alternatively, if Johnny won't follow clearly briefed packing lists and obey orders given in a predeployment gear check/safety brief, we have the responsibility to LEAVE THEM AT HOME. Anyone who displays such cavalier attitudes, I don't want on my GT.  I have sadly had to leave a cadet with his parents at 0600 for failing to show for movement to encampment with the required gear, and have encouraged him to go buy what he needed and drive up later after correcting himself.

V/r
Spam

[Spam]

So all of you throwing the "but safety" whiny flag here as a justification for ignoring the existing, approved cold weather gear, which we are constructively working to expand, remind yourself of that the next time you ever think of posting a complaint about any other noncompliant uniforms (so you can skip wasting our time with your illogical opinions).


I would be far more understanding of such a position if there were no other options, but ABUs are, OPTIONAL, ABUs have an expanding approved set of accessories, and field activities such as ES are optional as well (anyone who cant afford a jacket can wait until a summer encampment).


If you're pushing people into optional ABUs and then intentionally encouraging them to break the regs "Because Saaaafffteeeee", that's on YOU, folks. Not NHQ, and guys like me are not "baaaaad men" for holding to standards.


ABUs at all costs, huh? "And that's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish" - Dirty Harry, "The Enforcer", 1976.


R/
Spam

[kwe1009]

So all of you throwing the "but safety" whiny flag here as a justification for ignoring the existing, approved cold weather gear, which we are constructively working to expand, remind yourself of that the next time you ever think of posting a complaint about any other noncompliant uniforms (so you can skip wasting our time with your illogical opinions).


I would be far more understanding of such a position if there were no other options, but ABUs are, OPTIONAL, ABUs have an expanding approved set of accessories, and field activities such as ES are optional as well (anyone who cant afford a jacket can wait until a summer encampment).


If you're pushing people into optional ABUs and then intentionally encouraging them to break the regs "Because Saaaafffteeeee", that's on YOU, folks. Not NHQ, and guys like me are not "baaaaad men" for holding to standards.


ABUs at all costs, huh? "And that's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish" - Dirty Harry, "The Enforcer", 1976.


R/
Spam

Absolutely correct.  As an organization if you want to be taken seriously you have to do a few things.  You have to be competent at your job and not look jacked up doing it.  In a military-style organization the "how you look" part is even more important, especially if you are around the real military.

I'm not saying exclude the poor cadets who can't afford the proper coat but if you have such cadets then your first duty is to help them get properly outfitted.  Even the Gortex can be found for $30 or less on eBay.  They unit can fund raise to purchase these items and issue them to cadets as needed.  You can even issue them just before an activity and require they be returned after the activity like many do with GT gear.  Asking other units and higher headquarters for assistance is another idea that works as well. 

Plus if you do this the cadet will usually have a greater sense of pride in their appearance which is never a bad thing.

[stillamarine]

The active military often has more lax uniform regs in the winter too.

Uh the heck it does. There is rarely ever "lax" uniform regs even in a combat zone.

[CAPDCCMOM]

There is only one way to wear the uniform, CORRECTLY. This is plainly stated in the CAP New Cadet Guide. I am tired of Squadrons making up uniform rules as they go, even 39-1 has plainly said that Squadron Commanders can not issue uniform waivers.

[Ned]

Here are my concerns:

Within the CP, uniforms are an important training tool to teach discipline, attention to detail, and generate esprit.  They are also a critical recruiting and retention tool.  And this has been true since the CP began 75 years ago.  So we put a lot of emphasis on proper uniform wear for cadets and their senior member leaders.

In terms of things like field gear, cold weather gear, and the like, not even the RM expects individual service members to equip themselves.  Some do, of course.  (As an Army officer I bought my own Gortex, fleece, thermals, etc., but drew things like Mickey Mouse boots, parkas, and over gloves.)   But for things like sleeping bags, parkas, cold weather boots, etc. the overwhelming number of service members go to the supply room and are issued the required gear.  Which they have to sign for and return to Uncle Sam when it is no longer needed.

The overwhelming majority of CAP units are not equipped or resourced to acquire, maintain, secure, and account for these items, so we have generally worked around the problem by expecting the membership to but this kind of stuff on their own. 

Including cadets.

Some of you have pointed out that at least some of the outdoor activities that require cold weather gear are optional.  And there is certainly some truth to that.  But things like encampment and unit activities are not really optional for cadet members.  They take an oath to "participate actively in unit activities."  Plus it is unlikely that they will be promoted if they do not do so.

Nobody expects cadets to perform in a blizzard in a wilderness area for extended periods of time, but even a routine model rocket launching activity can be a challenge in 20 degree weather.  And we certainly encourage active participation in things like WAA, and based on some of the pictures I have seen, it can be very, very cold as we honor our deceased veterans.

As the National CP guy, I'd like us to be "clean" doctrinally on this.  But there is no easy path forward.

We could either:

1.  Follow and enforce our existing rules and require that cadets purchase some combination of the fleece and Gortex.  On the plus side, these are our existing rules and this is kind of the default "answer."  Some have pointed out that Gortex jackets may be purchased relatively inexpensively on places like eBay or perhaps locally.  Some units might have the ability to stock some cold weather gear and issue it before an activity.  On the downside, most units do not have the ability to do that.  It seems likely that even with thermals, authorized gloves, and earmuffs, a Gortex jacket may not be warm enough for some routine activities like WAA with even a mild wind blowing.  I suspect the expense and difficulty in outfitting cadets with adequate cold weather gear is why many unit commanders allow cadets to wear civilian outer wear, despite the prohibitions in the 39-1.  A "lesser-of-two-evils" approach that accomplishes the mission while caring for the troops.  But it is doctrinally improper.

2.  Alter the interim ABU guidance to legitimate the existing improper practice of allowing cadets to wear civilian outer wear in adverse conditions.  Obviously, that would affect uniform appearance, but is at least consistent with accomplishing the mission.

3.  Convince the AF to kick down trailer loads of parkas and watch caps.  Seems like a long-term solution at best.  In the meantime I've got a lot of cadet-sicles.

4.  Something else I can't think of. 

It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner.  And a watch cap.  And some gloves.

Please keep the conversation going.  What am I missing?

[Toad1168]

Ned, you hit the nail on the head.  This is the ever living problem.  Regs that require a minimal uniform (blues), but activities that require much more with little or no support like we used to from DRMO.  I am a staunch believer in uniform regs and adherence, but also a realist about the abilities of members being able to afford uniforms.  I think it sets a bad tone to say go home if they don't have all the correct stuff.  In a time when the organization is struggling to recruit and retain members, this is a dangerous precedent to set. 

I also have a concern with the notion that the other activities are optional.  They indeed are, but when we exclude members, especially cadets from participation, we run the risk of losing them.  "Sorry cadet, you don't have a uniform coat so you can't go with the other cadets to this fun activity.  See you in the spring."  "Oh, you want to get promoted? The only thing you have done is show up to meetings.  We don't think that is active participation.  Sorry."  It is a catch 22.

I have seen a trend, not just with uniforms, where some members tend to forget this is a volunteer organization with volunteer members.  I think we have all heard the term CAP = Come And Pay.  I am fortunate that I can buy the uniforms needed and when I was a cadet, my parents could afford to outfit me.  But I see many cadets and even senior members who are not as fortunate.  As an organization, we need to overcome this.  Or all we will have left is the few that can afford the money and time for it all.