Cold Weather Gear - ABU

[xray328]

I was looking over the ABU wear instructions and there's really no information regarding authorized cold weather gear other than:

Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer
garments (Exception: gloves worn solely with ABUs). With the exception of functional items, cold weather
accessories are only worn while outdoors.

The instructions also say that the only authorized headgear is the ABU cap.  I know when it comes to keeping the cadets warm there's been some flexibility given in the past (civilian coats etc). Specifically, can cadets wear the black watch cap as was allowed with the BDU?  We're participating in the Wreaths Across America ceremony this weekend and temperatures are expected to be in the low 30's.

I understand the "if the letter says it's authorized it is and if it doesn't it's not" mentality.  I'm just looking to keep the cadets warm/safe.

Thanks.

[THRAWN]

Ugh. This is what happens when you cut and paste out of AFIs and field with no review. Quick look says that the only authorized outer garments are what is listed. You could wear thermals that meet the regs...or drag out the old BDUs....

[xray328]

Thanks, like I said, some flexibility has given in the past. As I'm sure you know, not every cadet is going to have the M-65 and some of the newer cadets only have the ABU's. How many times have you seen cadets show up at meetings in the winter in BDU's with no coat or gloves? Certainly you'd have them wear civilian jackets if that's all they have.

[jeders]

Unfortunately, at this time the sage green watch cap is not authorized with the CAP ABU. As THRAWN correctly points out, this is the kind of issue you have when people just copy and paste from source materials without actually looking at or thinking about what they are copying.

[xray328]

I did think about what I was copy/pasting.   I referred to the wear guidelines and still had questions.

The guidelines make no mention of it, and again, flexibility has been given in the past.  No wear in the 39-1 does it say civilian jackets are authorized with the BDU combination but we've all seen and encouraged it if that's all the cadet has.  These wear instructions come from NHQ, the same NHQ that authorized the green fleece without instruction on rank placement or a supplier for wear on the green fleece.  NHQ isn't perfect, as we all know they've over looked things in the past. 

In the mean time, my concern is to keep the cadets safe. 

[THRAWN]

I did think about what I was copy/pasting.   I referred to the wear guidelines and still had questions.

The guidelines make no mention of it, and again, flexibility has been given in the past.  No wear in the 39-1 does it say civilian jackets are authorized with the BDU combination but we've all seen and encouraged it if that's all the cadet has.  These wear instructions come from NHQ, the same NHQ that authorized the green fleece without instruction on rank placement or a supplier for wear on the green fleece.  NHQ isn't perfect, as we all know they've over looked things in the past. 

In the mean time, my concern is to keep the cadets safe.

You do realize that this hatchet job of a wear instruction is pulled directly from the AFI, right? That's what we're referring to. Have you run this through your chain? If the interest is keeping the cadets safe, that should have been done when you were planning the activity, not 4 days prior. This all should have been thought out well in advance of the instruction and authorization being published. It gets cold in North America in the winter and hot in the summer. This organization has been wearing uniforms for 75 years. Issuing instructions on how to wear them properly should not be a reactive exercise. And I swear if I hear "well they're just volunteers..." I will lose my marbles...

And what happened to doing this in the service uniform?

[xray328]

I didn't come on here to argue with you Thrawn. I just think this was overlooked by NHQ, wear instructions for a warm hat are provided by the AFI, NHQ did not include them and I think that may have been an oversight.  Some of the ABU wear instructions have come down in bits and pieces (squadron patches etc). I don't think it's unreasonable to think that this might be such a case.

[SMWOG]

I would wear the sage or black watch cap....it's cold outside. Wear thermals underneath.

[THRAWN]

I didn't come on here to argue with you Thrawn. I just think this was overlooked by NHQ, wear instructions for a warm hat are provided by the AFI, NHQ did not include them and I think that may have been an oversight.  Some of the ABU wear instructions have come down in bits and pieces (squadron patches etc). I don't think it's unreasonable to think that this might be such a case.

We're saying the same thing, not arguing. It just really is personally offensive to me that this organizations demands that members be in uniform but doesn't put out the rules in a complete and timely manner. There is no need to issue multiple revisions to the instruction if it was done right the first time. I loathe sloppy work.

[xray328]

Oh ok, I misunderstood.

[Fubar]

I know when it comes to keeping the cadets warm there's been some flexibility given in the past (civilian coats etc)

Just to be clear, that flexibility you saw was not authorized and still isn't. That said, it happens everywhere.

[arajca]

Per the latest instructions on ABUs, the woodland pattern field jacket and gortex parka are authorized for wear with the ABU.

[abdsp51]

Per the latest instructions on ABUs, the woodland pattern field jacket and gortex parka are authorized for wear with the ABU.

Correct and they can wear earmuffs as well as long as they are black.

[THRAWN]

Per the latest instructions on ABUs, the woodland pattern field jacket and gortex parka are authorized for wear with the ABU.

Correct and they can wear earmuffs as well as long as they are black.

Source? It's not in the latest instruction.

[Spam]

You're right, xray, it is not unreasonable to expect a well coordinated design change package to look forward and take into account all these variables. For whatever reason, that didn't happen. Question is do we commit equally bad errors, or do we set the bar high? ("Excellence in All We Do", anyone)?

I did think about what I was copy/pasting.   I referred to the wear guidelines and still had questions.
The guidelines make no mention of it, and again, flexibility has been given in the past. 

The limits of that flexibility come only from your appointed Wing Commander - the lowest level permitted to Supplement 39-1, per Sections 2.8 and 9.4. You and your fellows are not allowed to improvise on the fly:

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
"1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards".

No wear in the 39-1 does it say civilian jackets are authorized with the BDU combination but we've all seen and encouraged it if that's all the cadet has.

We've all seen it. Those of us who follow the regs have stopped it. You should too!  Pre-deployment, make it clear (uniform only). On arrival, screen them as they arrive, and politely inform and send away members who don't have the UOD with safe outerwear. That includes black watch caps and civilian jackets and other outerwear (less the approved goretex and field jackets, which do have hoods (hint hint)).

In the mean time, my concern is to keep the cadets safe.

That's admirable. Tell them to get in a 39-1 compliant, safe uniform combo, OR, to not participate in this voluntary activity. Nothing requires them to either purchase the uniform, or to take part in the activity. By throwing out the "BUT SAFETY" flag, members who then knowingly break uniform regulations are eroding the principles of leadership we're charged with imparting to cadets, and are damaging the image of the Air Force. Please consider the image we would be projecting to the public by allowing members to participate in a public ceremonial activity while wearing nonstandard head gear and an uncoordinated, amateurish variety of civilian jackets, which reflects very poorly on our parent service.


I'm with Thrawn, philosophically on this. I hate sloppy work. Excellence in all we do. So, lets fix that at whatever levels we can, but lets be honest: nothing here merits the "safety" flag to be thrown for this activity. Keep them home, if that's the case, or put them in explicitly approved uniform items, only.


V/r
Spam

[abdsp51]

Per the latest instructions on ABUs, the woodland pattern field jacket and gortex parka are authorized for wear with the ABU.

Correct and they can wear earmuffs as well as long as they are black.

Source? It's not in the latest instruction.

The updated ABU wear instruction dated 24 Oct 2016. 

Cold weather accessories.  Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves worn solely with ABUs).  With the exception of functional items, cold weather gear accessories are only worn while indoors.

CAPR39-1 5.1 1.10 defines cold weather accessories.

6.3.1.7.3 defines warmuff color and design.

[Spam]

Per the latest instructions on ABUs, the woodland pattern field jacket and gortex parka are authorized for wear with the ABU.

Correct and they can wear earmuffs as well as long as they are black.

Source? It's not in the latest instruction.

Here's the food chain that I think he's thinking of (which the ABU authorization appears silent on, to me). I've just sent an email requesting a clarification on these from my commander (who also is the uniform committee chair) to try to help Xray and co. out:

- Black watch cap currently auth. for BDU per 5.1.1.8. Headgear.

- Gloves/scarf/muffs currently auth. for BDU per 5.1.1.10. Cold Weather Accessories.

- Overarching section currently authorizes wear of some cold weather gear "with authorized outer garments". Since ABUs are now authorized, the implication would be that gloves, scarves, and muffs as defined in 39-1 are authorized if they are as described below (e.g. black or sage green, etc.):

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
CHAPTER 6 – OUTERGARMENTS, HEADGEAR, RANK INSIGNIA AND ACCESSORIES
6.3. Jewelry, Eyewear, Electronic Devices, Bags, Backpacks, Cold Weather and Other Accessories.
6.3.1. USAF-style Uniform Standards
6.3.1.7. Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when
wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves may be worn solely with the service dress uniform
and BDUs). With the exception of functional items, cold weather accessories are only worn while
outdoors.
6.3.1.7.1. Gloves (black or sage green). Gloves may be worn with all authorized
outer garments. They will be all one color, leather, knitted, tricot or suede, or a combination of leather,
knitted, tricot, and suede. Black or sage green gloves may be worn with the BDU and FDU and all
authorized outer garments to the BDU and FDU. Only black gloves may be worn with the service dress
uniform and all approved outer garments worn with the blue service and service dress uniforms.
6.3.1.7.2. Scarf (black). A scarf may be worn with all authorized outer garments
except the pullover and cardigan sweaters (when worn solely as an outer garment). The scarf must be
tucked in and will only be worn with an outer garment. The scarf will not exceed 10 inches in width and
can be knit, all wool or cotton simplex, with or without a napped surface.
6.3.1.7.3. Earmuffs (black). Earmuffs may be worn with all authorized outer
garments and may wrap around either the top or rear of the head. Earmuffs may be made of any material
and will only be worn with an outer garment


V/r
Spam

"No muff too...." (ah, never mind - sorry, could not resist)

[xray328]

Thanks Spam (and abdsp51), very much appreciated.

[THRAWN]

Thanks Spam and abdsp51...

[abdsp51]

NP.  And yes there should have been a more thorough implimentation of the ABU instructions.

[CAPDCCMOM]

^^^^ But if things were done thoroughly, and implemented correctly, what would we on Captalk ever have to do?

[THRAWN]

^^^^ But if things were done thoroughly, and implemented correctly, what would we on Captalk ever have to do?

Behave. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Twirl our thumbs...?

...look for other topics to argue...?

...get more (ES and First Aid) training...?

...clean our vans...?

...clean our acft...?

[Ned]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

[Eclipse]

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?

"Cadets are authorized to wear appropriate civilian outerwear when expressly approved by their
unit or a respective activity's Commander.  This is considered for emergency or unforeseen situations only
and is not to be considered a blanket authorization during the course of normal operations.

Non-uniform outerwear should be subdued colors and not detract from a professional appearance."

Cold weather gear has been a problem going back at least as far as the implementation of the BDU, and
there really is no good choice for wearing blues in extreme conditions (though the question could be raised
why anyone is wearing an office uniform in extreme conditions).

This weekend's forecast weather for xray's wing, for example, should preclude anyone from wearing blues or whites to
WAA.

For most members the Goretex or fleece is enough for meeting nights, with them worn together for outside ops,
as usual it should be reminded that weather which exceeds the above, with thermals as layers, probably
exceeds the common sense ORM for a CAP activity or mission.

With that said, the N-3B has been the extreme weather jacket for the USAF for decades and should be approved for CAP
members with the ABU >and< BDU.  Sans insignia, it's not necessary.

The M-65 should be grandfathered in perpetuity for cadets and seniors regardless of which feild uniform they are
wearing, to include the CFU.  Again insignia is not necessary.

[xray328]

The IL Wing Commander has authorized wear of the black watch cap this weekend for this activity only


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spam]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

"All members are reminded to not mix unauthorized civilian outerwear with approved USAF style uniform combinations, including the newly authorized ABU uniform. Members are reminded that the BDU style woodland camo field jackets and goretex outerwear and black cold weather gear are approved for wear with the ABU uniform, as well as with the Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) which may continue to be worn until the mandatory phase out date of 15 June 2021. Units and activity commanders are reminded to plan ahead when selecting uniforms of the day for cold weather activities, and are reminded that deviations (including wear of unauthorized civilian clothing) are not authorized per CAPM 39-1 without a signed Wing Supplement. Given the available uniform alternatives, "Safety" is not considered a valid rationale for deviation from uniform regulations, whatever the mission".


Ned, you're treading into ES here with your mention of field ops. Cadets - or seniors - who don't have approved outerwear should not be participating in ES in field specialties (as ES is an optional, non mandatory activity). Someone who tries to deploy with civilian gear should get a down check on Task 0001 (uniform and gear for the conditions).


It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.


Sounds like xray's Wing/CC is on it for his command (good!). Ball in his glove; next proper step would be to follow up his (presumed) verbal with an IMC and an ILWG Supplement to 39-1.


V/r
Spam

[abdsp51]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

I have at my disposal,  thermal shirts, pants, gloves, watch cap,  APECS, green fleece,  overcoat, and the old fashioned furry parka that is popular in Korea. 

I like Eclipse's verbage for civilian gear but we should put an emphasis on procurring regulation cold weather gear.

[Eclipse]

It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.

I agree 100% in principle, the practical isn't so easy.

First, there's the issue of CAP not having proper items in the uniform inventory - this has been an issue for a long time.

Next, the "unofficial cash flow waiver" has been in place since before I joined CAP.

How many times do you send an otherwise good cadet home from a meeting, or worse, encampment, because they
don't have the correct outerwear?  How many times will that happen before they quit?  And suggesting the
unit pay for it, or some other senior members, etc., doesn't scale.

There have been more then a few "Maj C/ABs" at encampment because my jacket was placed on a shivering cadet
(for use as a 2-man shelter).

I know what the regs say, that's not the question.

[THRAWN]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

I have at my disposal,  thermal shirts, pants, gloves, watch cap,  APECS, green fleece,  overcoat, and the old fashioned furry parka that is popular in Korea. 

I like Eclipse's verbage for civilian gear but we should put an emphasis on procurring regulation cold weather gear.

Seconded. Treat coats like sunglasses: conservative in style and color, unadorned with visible logos, etc

I'm all for under uniform layering. Once upon a time, I was assigned as a patrol boat crewman. Layering up kept me toasty, even in the freeze of February.

[Spam]

It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.

I agree 100% in principle, the practical isn't so easy.

First, there's the issue of CAP not having proper items in the uniform inventory - this has been an issue for a long time.

Next, the "unofficial cash flow waiver" has been in place since before I joined CAP.

How many times do you send an otherwise good cadet home from a meeting, or worse, encampment, because they
don't have the correct outerwear?  How many times will that happen before they quit?  And suggesting the
unit pay for it, or some other senior members, etc., doesn't scale.

There have been more then a few "Maj C/ABs" at encampment because my jacket was placed on a shivering cadet
(for use as a 2-man shelter).

I know what the regs say, that's not the question.

The answer is to stop planning outdoors activities in cold weather, and/or by making it clear that you need the required list of gear to attend (by limiting participation to those who are properly turned out).


- Winter encampment? Really? See the packing list:  "no more - no less". Why would that be different now?
- Winter SAREX? Cool. See the gear task list. Very clear to all of us.
- Wreath laying? Fine. UOD is Class As and approved blues. Etc.


If you let a young cadet stay - and shiver - at a winter encampment because you let them in the door without the required cold weather gear, well, that's turned into a safety issue because of your hazardous attitude, not because of the uniform regs. YES, you should send them home. YES, you should turn away an FNG at an overnight FTX who shows without a cold rated bag, or with some Scooby Doo kids gear that could cause hypothermia. 

We need to manage expectations here, everyone... volunteer enthusiasm needs to be tempered by ORM and adherence to procedure. We have approved waivers to wear BDU gear and to continue wearing BDU gear; lets not pretend that the advent of ABUs has created a crisis for members who wink at uniform regs (i.e. if you put a jacket on a C/MAJ in years past, don't blame the sketchy implementation of ABUs for that - blame overly permissive management for putting him at risk).


R/
Spam

[Spam]

PS - on managing expecations.

"Otherwise good cadets" and their parents will understand if we establish and are consistent with a uniform and safety policy that establishes guidance up front, and enforces good planning.  Cadets interested in aviation and the military had better get it straight NOW that checklists and planning are necessary.

R
Spam

[Eclipse]

You didn't really answer the question. 

In the Midwest in April, it can be 65 one weekend and 20 with wet snow the next (or even day-to-day).

Mom had to make a decision as to get a CAP coat or something the kid can wear the rest of the time.
She's burned CEAP on the activity fees and finally got the kid some ABUs that fit. She has no more money
to buy additional items.

So the kid is safe and dry, but non-compliant.

With safety a non-factor, how do you send them home?  What do you say to mom when she's surrounded by
seniors who can't read a scale, or ignore other regs (or are in a $17 golf shirt and a sweet North Face) while
you're packing her stuff back in the car?  Not to mention the very real possibility that this is cadet #7 or 12 in one
van from the next state over?

TLC says we should always work with a cadet's best interest at heart.

The principle dissolves at the practical, yet this is ignored when the regs are written.

[Spam]

I DID answer your question.

1. Don't plan encampments in the winter in the Midwest, OR

2. Publish the mandatory packing list well ahead of time, coupled to guidance from local leaders to make sure parents understand "no more, no less".


CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
"1.2.3.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various
climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major
part of the combinations described in this publication. The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify
the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron,
group, wing, region, and national functions. All commanders must be mindful of the objective of
attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and
will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements".


Should you hold an encampment in the winter in the Midwest, a freakin uniform coat is not "unreasonable".


V/r
Spam

[Ned]

Here's an honest question from a guy who lives in a part of the country where even a overnight freeze is a rare thing:

In freezing (and below) weather, are the currently authorized ABU outer garments (some combination of the fleece and the gortex parka) warm enough for field work ?  Especially with just an ABU hat?

It doesn't feel that way to me.

The Army issued me things like a fur-trimmed overparka and Mickey Mouse boots anytime they asked me to go play in the snow.  Even at temperatures in the 20-30 degree range. My skinny body could not hang with just a gortex parka, even with thermals below.

As a practical matter, outdoor activities and training are almost always a Good Thing for cadets.  I don't want to get stuck in a loop where we simply cannot have outdoor cadet activities in the field just because it snowed.

[SarDragon]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Ned Lee
National CP Manager

WIWOAD (admittedly a while ago), the military folks I had the opportunity to observe in cold weather ops (primarily USAF and USN) were issued organizational gear as needed. It belonged to the unit, and was issued and collected up as the seasons changed. This was over and above any regular clothing items. CAP doesn't currently have this capacity, and I don't see it ever happening.

[ETA - I see that you added that in a later post, but here it is for the less informed.]

[CAPDCCMOM]

Ned,the ORM for snowballs for our Precious Cadet Snowflake??

But Seriously, people need to use their brain cell. If we let Cadets know what cold weather gear is needed and allowed, they need to get it. As for the "I can't afford it", turn off you cable TV, that frees up $100 per month.

It's about priorities, wear the uniform properly or not at all.

[Spam]

When I pinged COL Greenwood on this issue six months ago (starting in JUN16, with a followup in SEP16 to remind him of the extant holes in the approval letters) he concurred, stated that he'd get on it, and urged me to remind everyone that cold weather clothing is not strictly an outerwear shell issue alone.

Proper protection starts at the skin, with layering. Thermal underwear, layering of shirts and liners to trap and retain heated air, replacement of sweaty (wet) clothing, the use of the field jacket liners with the coats, the use of the existing hoods for the field jackets and goretex coats, etc. etc. etc.

• There is plenty of approved gear within the existing BDU ensemble which is valid until 2021.

• 
  There are adequate work arounds in place now (BDU outerwear with ABUs) to mitigate the risk for most situations.

• There's no reason whatsoever to cry emergency here as long as activities are properly being planned and cold weather TTPs are being used - and that people are told that if they want to play in some operational cases, they need to buy the gear (same as it ever was).

If a member cannot afford the required clothing to operate safely in the conditions, then they should save up until a summer encampment, or a summer FTX/SAREX. Alternately, some units (like mine) do stock a bunch of field jackets/liners for temp issue on a F37.

V/r
Spam

[Eclipse]

Should you hold an encampment in the winter in the Midwest, a freakin uniform coat is not "unreasonable".

Agreed - are the rules different at Frostbite?  I see several cadets being very happy and safe but non-compliant.

Just asking.

[Spam]

In 2000, I was commanding a unit in MDWG.
That event is now an AFAM under an IC from another unit, who is fairly on point.

V/r
Spam

[Eclipse]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Yes, they should be sent home. A packing list was sent out, items were not procured, Cadet can not safely participate.  This can also be a valuable lesson. Don't expect everyone else to wipe your butt for you, you are responsible for your gear.

[xray328]

I'm happy if we can wear a warm hat and gloves. The fleece is surprisingly warm and I'd imagine that and some thermal underwear would be enough for activities outside of ice bowls and other extreme winter events. That fleece is $25 all day long on eBay.  Now if we could just get that darn rank tab...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[foo]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

He already answered that question earlier using language I think could not be clearer. It seems all you did here was to try discrediting him by mining his squadron's web site for pictures of uniform violations. Too bad you couldn't score anything more recent than a sixteen-year-old event.

[Eclipse]

Yes, they should be sent home. A packing list was sent out, items were not procured, Cadet can not safely participate.  This can also be a valuable lesson. Don't expect everyone else to wipe your butt for you, you are responsible for your gear.

And when the response is:

A - I can't afford it?

B - Unless CAP issued it, you can't mandate the wear of any item other then the MBU?

I've already indicated I agree philosophically, good luck with Mom when they are standing in front of you.

[CAPDCCMOM]

No, I can not mandate an item of equipment. However, the event is not mandatory, it is voluntary. And you are not required to attend if you can't kit yourself out properly. Get a paper route, or do odd jobs to earn money, then enjoy, go and get the gear. Giving things away takes away the value of when it has been earned.

Is it "fair", maybe not, but life was never designed to be fair. If you are really motivated, you will make it happen.

[stitchmom]

Still didn't answer the question - should those cadets have been sent home?

Would you send them home now?

The "I'd make sure they had the right stuff..." doesn't fly as encampments deal with cadets outside local control.

Squadrons should have a pre-activity packing check with senior members who know.

It takes 5 minutes to make a call or send an email Does Cadet have everything on the list or do you have any questions about the list.

[THRAWN]

This is an interesting topic. Someone mentioned organizational issue. I was fortunate to be in 2 units that did this. We would have fundraisers through the year to procure and maintain the stock of cold and wet weather gear. It helps.

[USACAP]

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.
Let's display a modicum of sanity.

at this time the sage green watch cap is not authorized

YES! Thank you.
There is so much common sense in your post my head spun.
When I was a cadet, 3 decades ago, I was embarrassingly poor.
My squadron (and wing and an NCSE or 2) worked with me and let me slide on some things here and there esp until I had a real job.
This is a volunteer organization. Nothing is 100%.
The active military often has more lax uniform regs in the winter too.
Keep the best interest of the cadet in mind.
Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

So the kid is safe and dry, but non-compliant.

TLC says we should always work with a cadet's best interest at heart.

[abdsp51]

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs. 

[USACAP]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

[abdsp51]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

[xray328]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

I agree we should follow regs but we also have a responsibility to take care of other peoples children. We should never let's the regs (especially uniform regs) get in the way of common sense. Active duty is one thing, but these are people's kids and in the moment I'm taking care of the kid every time. We can say things like "cadets wouldn't be in these situations with proper planning" but we live in the real world and we all know that things don't always go according to plan despite our best efforts or intentions.   Again, I just hope people know that "regs" shouldn't get in the way of common sense.  If Johnny's ears are turning purple put a hat (black sage or otherwise) on the kids head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spam]

When regs (esp the regs of a volunteer organization) are poorly written and following them will certainly lead to an unsafe outcome?
Smart people do not adhere to them.
Who would you take more seriously on a 20 degree morning?
A group of volunteers in sage green or black fleece caps or a group of volunteers with purple ears in their patrol caps?

Agree with you about the lack of common sense!
I have been wearing a watch cap w/ the ABU. I will continue to wear it. I had my cadets wear it too.
This is a volunteer organization.

Wear the sage green hat! Don't be an idiot.
Having exposed ears on a freezing cold day because a uniform manual was improperly written is dumb.

This is why we have the uniform issues we do and are not taken seriously breaking the regs.

There are accommodations within CAPR39-1 to cover the ears.  Breaking the regs even when you don't agree with them is still breaking the regs.

I agree we should follow regs but we also have a responsibility to take care of other peoples children. We should never let's the regs (especially uniform regs) get in the way of common sense. Active duty is one thing, but these are people's kids and in the moment I'm taking care of the kid every time. We can say things like "cadets wouldn't be in these situations with proper planning" but we live in the real world and we all know that things don't always go according to plan despite our best efforts or intentions.   Again, I just hope people know that "regs" shouldn't get in the way of common sense.  If Johnny's ears are turning purple put a hat (black sage or otherwise) on the kids head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alternatively, if Johnny won't follow clearly briefed packing lists and obey orders given in a predeployment gear check/safety brief, we have the responsibility to LEAVE THEM AT HOME. Anyone who displays such cavalier attitudes, I don't want on my GT.  I have sadly had to leave a cadet with his parents at 0600 for failing to show for movement to encampment with the required gear, and have encouraged him to go buy what he needed and drive up later after correcting himself.

V/r
Spam

[Spam]

So all of you throwing the "but safety" whiny flag here as a justification for ignoring the existing, approved cold weather gear, which we are constructively working to expand, remind yourself of that the next time you ever think of posting a complaint about any other noncompliant uniforms (so you can skip wasting our time with your illogical opinions).


I would be far more understanding of such a position if there were no other options, but ABUs are, OPTIONAL, ABUs have an expanding approved set of accessories, and field activities such as ES are optional as well (anyone who cant afford a jacket can wait until a summer encampment).


If you're pushing people into optional ABUs and then intentionally encouraging them to break the regs "Because Saaaafffteeeee", that's on YOU, folks. Not NHQ, and guys like me are not "baaaaad men" for holding to standards.


ABUs at all costs, huh? "And that's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish" - Dirty Harry, "The Enforcer", 1976.


R/
Spam

[kwe1009]

So all of you throwing the "but safety" whiny flag here as a justification for ignoring the existing, approved cold weather gear, which we are constructively working to expand, remind yourself of that the next time you ever think of posting a complaint about any other noncompliant uniforms (so you can skip wasting our time with your illogical opinions).


I would be far more understanding of such a position if there were no other options, but ABUs are, OPTIONAL, ABUs have an expanding approved set of accessories, and field activities such as ES are optional as well (anyone who cant afford a jacket can wait until a summer encampment).


If you're pushing people into optional ABUs and then intentionally encouraging them to break the regs "Because Saaaafffteeeee", that's on YOU, folks. Not NHQ, and guys like me are not "baaaaad men" for holding to standards.


ABUs at all costs, huh? "And that's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish" - Dirty Harry, "The Enforcer", 1976.


R/
Spam

Absolutely correct.  As an organization if you want to be taken seriously you have to do a few things.  You have to be competent at your job and not look jacked up doing it.  In a military-style organization the "how you look" part is even more important, especially if you are around the real military.

I'm not saying exclude the poor cadets who can't afford the proper coat but if you have such cadets then your first duty is to help them get properly outfitted.  Even the Gortex can be found for $30 or less on eBay.  They unit can fund raise to purchase these items and issue them to cadets as needed.  You can even issue them just before an activity and require they be returned after the activity like many do with GT gear.  Asking other units and higher headquarters for assistance is another idea that works as well. 

Plus if you do this the cadet will usually have a greater sense of pride in their appearance which is never a bad thing.

[stillamarine]

The active military often has more lax uniform regs in the winter too.

Uh the heck it does. There is rarely ever "lax" uniform regs even in a combat zone.

[CAPDCCMOM]

There is only one way to wear the uniform, CORRECTLY. This is plainly stated in the CAP New Cadet Guide. I am tired of Squadrons making up uniform rules as they go, even 39-1 has plainly said that Squadron Commanders can not issue uniform waivers.

[Ned]

Here are my concerns:

Within the CP, uniforms are an important training tool to teach discipline, attention to detail, and generate esprit.  They are also a critical recruiting and retention tool.  And this has been true since the CP began 75 years ago.  So we put a lot of emphasis on proper uniform wear for cadets and their senior member leaders.

In terms of things like field gear, cold weather gear, and the like, not even the RM expects individual service members to equip themselves.  Some do, of course.  (As an Army officer I bought my own Gortex, fleece, thermals, etc., but drew things like Mickey Mouse boots, parkas, and over gloves.)   But for things like sleeping bags, parkas, cold weather boots, etc. the overwhelming number of service members go to the supply room and are issued the required gear.  Which they have to sign for and return to Uncle Sam when it is no longer needed.

The overwhelming majority of CAP units are not equipped or resourced to acquire, maintain, secure, and account for these items, so we have generally worked around the problem by expecting the membership to but this kind of stuff on their own. 

Including cadets.

Some of you have pointed out that at least some of the outdoor activities that require cold weather gear are optional.  And there is certainly some truth to that.  But things like encampment and unit activities are not really optional for cadet members.  They take an oath to "participate actively in unit activities."  Plus it is unlikely that they will be promoted if they do not do so.

Nobody expects cadets to perform in a blizzard in a wilderness area for extended periods of time, but even a routine model rocket launching activity can be a challenge in 20 degree weather.  And we certainly encourage active participation in things like WAA, and based on some of the pictures I have seen, it can be very, very cold as we honor our deceased veterans.

As the National CP guy, I'd like us to be "clean" doctrinally on this.  But there is no easy path forward.

We could either:

1.  Follow and enforce our existing rules and require that cadets purchase some combination of the fleece and Gortex.  On the plus side, these are our existing rules and this is kind of the default "answer."  Some have pointed out that Gortex jackets may be purchased relatively inexpensively on places like eBay or perhaps locally.  Some units might have the ability to stock some cold weather gear and issue it before an activity.  On the downside, most units do not have the ability to do that.  It seems likely that even with thermals, authorized gloves, and earmuffs, a Gortex jacket may not be warm enough for some routine activities like WAA with even a mild wind blowing.  I suspect the expense and difficulty in outfitting cadets with adequate cold weather gear is why many unit commanders allow cadets to wear civilian outer wear, despite the prohibitions in the 39-1.  A "lesser-of-two-evils" approach that accomplishes the mission while caring for the troops.  But it is doctrinally improper.

2.  Alter the interim ABU guidance to legitimate the existing improper practice of allowing cadets to wear civilian outer wear in adverse conditions.  Obviously, that would affect uniform appearance, but is at least consistent with accomplishing the mission.

3.  Convince the AF to kick down trailer loads of parkas and watch caps.  Seems like a long-term solution at best.  In the meantime I've got a lot of cadet-sicles.

4.  Something else I can't think of. 

It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner.  And a watch cap.  And some gloves.

Please keep the conversation going.  What am I missing?

[Toad1168]

Ned, you hit the nail on the head.  This is the ever living problem.  Regs that require a minimal uniform (blues), but activities that require much more with little or no support like we used to from DRMO.  I am a staunch believer in uniform regs and adherence, but also a realist about the abilities of members being able to afford uniforms.  I think it sets a bad tone to say go home if they don't have all the correct stuff.  In a time when the organization is struggling to recruit and retain members, this is a dangerous precedent to set. 

I also have a concern with the notion that the other activities are optional.  They indeed are, but when we exclude members, especially cadets from participation, we run the risk of losing them.  "Sorry cadet, you don't have a uniform coat so you can't go with the other cadets to this fun activity.  See you in the spring."  "Oh, you want to get promoted? The only thing you have done is show up to meetings.  We don't think that is active participation.  Sorry."  It is a catch 22.

I have seen a trend, not just with uniforms, where some members tend to forget this is a volunteer organization with volunteer members.  I think we have all heard the term CAP = Come And Pay.  I am fortunate that I can buy the uniforms needed and when I was a cadet, my parents could afford to outfit me.  But I see many cadets and even senior members who are not as fortunate.  As an organization, we need to overcome this.  Or all we will have left is the few that can afford the money and time for it all.

[Tim Day]

We could either:

1.  Follow and enforce our existing rules and require that cadets purchase some combination of the fleece and Gortex.  On the plus side, these are our existing rules and this is kind of the default "answer."  Some have pointed out that Gortex jackets may be purchased relatively inexpensively on places like eBay or perhaps locally.  Some units might have the ability to stock some cold weather gear and issue it before an activity.  On the downside, most units do not have the ability to do that.  It seems likely that even with thermals, authorized gloves, and earmuffs, a Gortex jacket may not be warm enough for some routine activities like WAA with even a mild wind blowing.  I suspect the expense and difficulty in outfitting cadets with adequate cold weather gear is why many unit commanders allow cadets to wear civilian outer wear, despite the prohibitions in the 39-1.  A "lesser-of-two-evils" approach that accomplishes the mission while caring for the troops.  But it is doctrinally improper.

2.  Alter the interim ABU guidance to legitimate the existing improper practice of allowing cadets to wear civilian outer wear in adverse conditions.  Obviously, that would affect uniform appearance, but is at least consistent with accomplishing the mission.

3.  Convince the AF to kick down trailer loads of parkas and watch caps.  Seems like a long-term solution at best.  In the meantime I've got a lot of cadet-sicles.

4.  Something else I can't think of. 

It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner.  And a watch cap.  And some gloves.

Please keep the conversation going.  What am I missing?

What about authorizing civilian clothing for some activities? We are considering several less-than-ideal, fiscally-constrained options.

Let's say we're helping with crowd control, communications, and truck-unload monitoring at WAA Arlington National Cemetery. Cadet Snuffy wants to help, but doesn't have BDU or ABU jackets, and the squadron has already allocated their loaners. Cadet Snuffy goes wearing civilian cloths and his warm civilian jacket and gets to wear a reflective vest with "CAP" emblazoned on it. CAP gets credit. He gets to actively participate. The USAF-style uniform isn't degraded by mixing with civilian clothing.

Organizations like WAA appreciate our support because we provide them with needed capability. What we wear is irrelevant to them. Allowing the wear of unmixed civilian clothing with appropriate identifying accessories honors the uniform and removes a barrier to participation.

[Spam]

LTC Day, that's a good suggestion.

Last month, we camped out at a state park in northern AL, and toured Marshall Space Flight Center. To maximize the number of new cadets who could attend, I authorized "PT Uniform" (essentially our squadron T shirt and all civvies) for the ride up and the overnight camping in cold weather, and field uniforms (BDU/ABUs) for the facility tour and return.  Had a good turnout, we were uniform, and people were warm and safe.

Acceptable, in my view, when we're not mixing uniform with civilian clothing. Acceptable when we're not appearing as reps of the USAF on an AFAM. Acceptable in that the members were uniformly and neatly attired when they were in the public eye (in the relative warmth of the museum and busses). Entirely planned and structured to accommodate and motivate newer members with limited gear/uniform to date, and it worked well.


Ned, you said:  "It doesn't feel viable to tell Mom to go back and buy BDUs so that they can then also buy a warm M-65 jacket and liner". Can we state again, that the current NHQ guidance is that they can wear those items with the ABUs, and get off this point?


Toad, my folks never bought me a thing as a cadet. I mowed lawns to buy field gear and boots, etc. I wanted gear so badly I worked my butt off, and sweated to earn it. As I'd said before, in several of my units we've had a history of doing fund raisers to buy and stock field jackets and gear, and if cadets really want a motivating activity - there you go. Build the unit, pay it forward, but motivate them to earn it, and wear it properly to build on positive public image. I could cite several instances where we've heard nonmembers at FBOs commenting about sloppy members from other units, which made our people bristle and mutter "Don't Be That Guy".


Encourage, gradually assimilate, and motivate your people, but don't coddle them, hold to standards, and don't let people comment about them that they are "That Guy".


V/r
Spam

[stitchmom]

Youth may not have the resources to start a lawn mowing business. Around here they would have to travel into the suburbs to find a lawn which is not practical without a vehicle.  Secondly the mostly (white) population there get upset that kids from the city are brought there to trick or treat. Do you think they are going to hire them to work on their property? They love to support "ministries" that work with city kids but most want them kept in the city.

Why is there such  a Pull Yourself Up By The Bootstrap mentality on here to pay for uniforms? We don't expect them to mow lawns or beg to wash cars to rent the building.

[stitchmom]

No, I can not mandate an item of equipment. However, the event is not mandatory, it is voluntary. And you are not required to attend if you can't kit yourself out properly. Get a paper route, or do odd jobs to earn money, then enjoy, go and get the gear. Giving things away takes away the value of when it has been earned.

Is it "fair", maybe not, but life was never designed to be fair. If you are really motivated, you will make it happen.

This is a bourgeois view that willpower = economic opportunity. It's not that simple for the poor.

[vorteks]

[THRAWN]

Youth may not have the resources to start a lawn mowing business. Around here they would have to travel into the suburbs to find a lawn which is not practical without a vehicle.  Secondly the mostly (white) population there get upset that kids from the city are brought there to trick or treat. Do you think they are going to hire them to work on their property? They love to support "ministries" that work with city kids but most want them kept in the city.

Why is there such  a Pull Yourself Up By The Bootstrap mentality on here to pay for uniforms? We don't expect them to mow lawns or beg to wash cars to rent the building.

And of course, that's the only way to generate cash flow. Uniforms are a choice. If you want to do projects and activities outside of the weekly unit meeting, you're going to need additional quantities and types of uniforms. Part of the cadet program is character development. Part of that is personal responsibility, discipline, and development of self reliance. That is how funds are generated. Or you could just teach your cadets to expect hand outs, Veruca.

[Shawn W.]

Here's an honest question from a guy who lives in a part of the country where even a overnight freeze is a rare thing:

In freezing (and below) weather, are the currently authorized ABU outer garments (some combination of the fleece and the gortex parka) warm enough for field work ?  Especially with just an ABU hat?

Ned,

To answer that question from someone who lives in MN where the temps this week are not above 5 above and are getting down to 20 below or lower at night, the ABUs, Fleece, Parka and Hat are no where near warm enough for just going to a regular squadron meeting, let alone any type of mission work.

Thanks,

SW

[Eclipse]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

[Spam]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

Point by point, as you've clearly come back out of your cave at me, breathing rancor:

My unit doesn't have a retention issue. Check those unit pages you've apparently visited, and for almost every cadet in those pics, I'd tell you about these three at USAFA, that one currently carries "The Football" for the CINC, that one is in pilot training at Pcola, etc. Clearly, we are attracting, retaining, and helping cadets go on to meet challenges, by holding the bar high, not meeting challenges FOR them.

I am, further, not clearly "proud" to send cadets or officers home. I very rarely have had to do so. However, I have done so in cases where they're not safely attired (where you, by your comments, are happy to keep them around in poorly suited clothing "shivering"). Who is proud here?

I can do little about my senior leadership other than advise them (which I've done as a DCP and a subordinate commander, and have done on this issue, through channels, helping to get ancillary gear approved). What have you done sir, other than [censored] and insult?

I have three sons, two of them cadets (1 C/LT, 1 C/CPT), who all do lawncare, and who pet sit, and who referee sports, and... etc. My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments. My 11 year old is working his rear off to save for his uniforms for when he'll be eligible to join.

Which brings me full circle to preparing cadets for life; I for one love to see cadets taking charge of their own lives without depending on handouts. I believe that self reliance and charity and teamwork are American core values, and those are all part and parcel of my responses, how I raise my sons, and how I administer my little corner of our volunteer program. Without the bitterness.

Sincerely,
Spam

Update: apologies to the mods for the use of the above word - may I substitute "complain" for the vernacular, please.

[68w20]

Anyone still interested in why CAP as a whole, but especially the Cadet Program has a hemorrhaging retention issue,
consider the fact that it has any number of unit and activity commanders who feel not only empowered,
but clearly proud that they would send a 12-year old home from an activity because he can't afford the "proper"
uniform jacket for the weather.

This.  I'd like to know if Spam, et al have collected any data on retention of Cadets sent home from activities due to lack of "required" cold weather gear.

This also needs to be viewed in the context that we have a significant portion of the senior membership who ignore
the same clear rules, and that cadets, traditionally, are still supposed to be treated as adolescents who need stewardship not
hard lines about meaningless trivialities.

The point made here about adolescence is key.  We tend to forget that the Cadets that we're dealing with are developing their brains.  Not in an abstract "they have so much to learn" sense, but in a literal, physical sense.  Their brains are developing, and a part of that is that they often do not make connections that we think are "common sense."  If we send a Cadet home from encampment because they didn't go buy a specific coat, they're not going to congratulate you on your adherence to the regulation.  They're going to be angry and frustrated that they have to wait another year for their Mitchell Award because someone "important" made an unreasonable call.

Anyone with kids currently in school would know, for starters, that the average homework load and extracurricular
activity schedule precludes the majority from being able to do any sort of part-time work, and the 1950's utopia of lawn care
and paper routes (paper routes, seriously?  It's !@#$% 2016, no one reads a "paper" any more, and what few "routes"
are left are run by cigar-chomping guys in old station wagons, not kids on a Stingray with a bag on the bars).

This point is key as well.  The academic and extracurricular expectations for are Cadets are far beyond most of the experiences of our Senior Members.  Having 20, 15, or even 5 hours a week for a part time job is not a matter of "buckling down and working" for many of our Cadets.  Having that job means that they're getting 5 hours of sleep a night instead of 7, or failing key exams that determine whether or not they have the career they want.  Are we going to demand that of them so that a formation is uniform?

"Motivation" isn't holding 12-year olds responsible for their parent's issues, it's concentrating on the real lessons and
core issues needed for CAP and life success, and that doesn't included a Gore-Tex parka.

Agreed.  We have literally dozens of important lessons to teach to our Cadets, and uniformity is one of them.  It is not, however, reasonable or practical to send Cadets home because they didn't buy one specific coat that they could only wear at one or two events throughout the year.  Encourage them to purchase it, yes, but don't turn them away because it'll clash.

[Eclipse]

My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments.

What's great about the internet is that you can generally tell when you are on the right track when the
argument turns personal - thank you.

The only thing I will respond to directly is this nonsense about cadets "shivering" - you seem to have an
issue when people choose safety over appearance, but no one here said they were leaving cadets in the cold because of not having
uniform outerwear, in fact quite the opposite.

[Spam]

My observation is that you're a pretty bitter man, given some of your comments.

What's great about the internet is that you can generally tell when you are on the right track when the
argument turns personal - thank you.

Aw, rats... I fed the Troll.  Sorry everyone, I forgot how he lives off of this.

Spam

[Storm Chaser]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

[PHall]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

[arajca]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

In ABU or woodland pattern. Or the woodland pattern field jacket.

[Storm Chaser]

Considering that CAPM 39-1 has not been updated with the ABUs yet, I would personally wear any cold weather outer garment authorized by the U.S. Air Force in AFI 36-2903 unless specifically prohibited by the ICL or higher headquarters. When in doubt, your best best is to seek guidance through your chain of command.

Uhh, that's what is in the ABU Wear Instructions. The Fleece and/or the Gortex.

There are a lot of things that are not covered in the ABU Wear Instructions. Omission or prohibition?

[xray328]

My two reported back that they were fine with the fleece today (with proper layering). Apparently they need warmer boots (or thicker socks?) though...does it ever end ☺


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stitchmom]

Nope put hunting boots on your list!

[Okayish Aviator]

God, I'm so glad I'm living in FL right now where the temp during the day is still 78+. lol.

[Eclipse]

My two reported back that they were fine with the fleece today (with proper layering). Apparently they need warmer boots (or thicker socks?) though...does it ever end ☺

The forecast freezing rain never showed up (at least in the Northana Area) and the temps were actually pretty manageable.  It's only
started snowing in the last couple of hours here, most of the day was very dry, it was actually a fairly decent day to be doing WoA, though
I could see feet being an issue, especially if they got wet.