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Cadet_Boi
Recruit

Posts: 10

« on: December 05, 2016, 09:14:16 PM »

I just recently signed up for encampment and I think I have sent everything that is needed. I just want some clarification about what it means that basics must have complete ORM. Can someone explain? Thanks
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 10:33:44 PM »

The proper term for Cadet participants at an encampment "student(s)", not "basic(s)", just FYI.  Staff cadets are referred to as "cadre".
It is an overt acknowledgment that CAP encampments are rich learning environments designed to enhance cadet skills and
knowledge obtained at the home squadron, while modeling CAP at a larger scope then most members normally see.  They are not "basic cadet training".

As to ORM - that is an online session which can be found in SIRS - which is also where you can complete Safety briefings
if you miss the one(s) at your squadron meeting.

You may already know this, but you will also have to have completed the Curry achievement in order to attend an encampment.

This link will take you to the ORMS training (requires your eservices login):
https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.eServices.Web/default.aspx?ReturnUrl=https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.SafetyBriefingApp.Web/SafetyBriefingOnline.aspx
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 875

« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 02:21:12 PM »

The proper term for Cadet participants at an encampment "student(s)", not "basic(s)", just FYI.  Staff cadets are referred to as "cadre".
It is an overt acknowledgment that CAP encampments are rich learning environments designed to enhance cadet skills and
knowledge obtained at the home squadron, while modeling CAP at a larger scope then most members normally see.  They are not "basic cadet training".

Inaccurate.

The Ohio Wing officially recognizes first-time cadets as "Basics." I have never heard of a cadet attending as a "first-timer" on a second or multiple-attended experience; however, they would be referred to as a "Basic" if they do not hold a staff position. Cadets staffing the OHWG Encampment are referred to as "Cadet Staff," as opposed to "Senior Staff," all of whom are part of the "Encampment Staff."

In fact, here is a memorandum from the former OHWG Director of Cadet Programs and 2016 Encampment Commandant for Cadets:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=b2h3Zy5jYXAuZ292fGVuY2FtcG1lbnR8Z3g6MTMxNGM3MTQ3NzFlNThmNg

Note the use of the term "Basic"



And while I would agree that Encampment is not "Basic Training" in a military sense, it's a pretty heavy indoctrination of CAP cadet customs and courtesies, drill and ceremony, and general knowledge and SOPs within the week span: door-pounding wake up, regimented PT, room inspections, classroom seminars, drill training, structured dining...the works. A lot of shouting. A lot of on-spot corrections. And some pretty cool activities (firefighting, military orientation flights). I personally think the classes got to be a bit ridiculous, having a full day of classes serving very little to provide the knowledge cadets will require to carry throughout their cadet career and wasting their time sitting in a week of lectures during their summer vacation which is not what they signed up for. But it's definitely a youth version of "boot camp" without what would be considered as "hazing" in the modern era.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,809

« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 02:29:51 PM »

The proper term for Cadet participants at an encampment "student(s)", not "basic(s)", just FYI.  Staff cadets are referred to as "cadre".
It is an overt acknowledgment that CAP encampments are rich learning environments designed to enhance cadet skills and
knowledge obtained at the home squadron, while modeling CAP at a larger scope then most members normally see.  They are not "basic cadet training".

Inaccurate.

The Ohio Wing officially recognizes first-time cadets as "Basics." I have never heard of a cadet attending as a "first-timer" on a second or multiple-attended experience; however, they would be referred to as a "Basic" if they do not hold a staff position. Cadets staffing the OHWG Encampment are referred to as "Cadet Staff," as opposed to "Senior Staff," all of whom are part of the "Encampment Staff."

In fact, here is a memorandum from the former OHWG Director of Cadet Programs and 2016 Encampment Commandant for Cadets:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=b2h3Zy5jYXAuZ292fGVuY2FtcG1lbnR8Z3g6MTMxNGM3MTQ3NzFlNThmNg

Note the use of the term "Basic"



And while I would agree that Encampment is not "Basic Training" in a military sense, it's a pretty heavy indoctrination of CAP cadet customs and courtesies, drill and ceremony, and general knowledge and SOPs within the week span: door-pounding wake up, regimented PT, room inspections, classroom seminars, drill training, structured dining...the works. A lot of shouting. A lot of on-spot corrections. And some pretty cool activities (firefighting, military orientation flights). I personally think the classes got to be a bit ridiculous, having a full day of classes serving very little to provide the knowledge cadets will require to carry throughout their cadet career and wasting their time sitting in a week of lectures during their summer vacation which is not what they signed up for. But it's definitely a youth version of "boot camp" without what would be considered as "hazing" in the modern era.

Inaccurate.

Just because the OHWG CP has obviously not read the Encampment Manual does not mean that his use of the term "basic" is correct or acceptable. Why in the name of Halsey does this keep coming up?!!? And that bilge about "definitely a youth version of "boot camp" clearly demonstrates that you have no idea what encampment is and its goal. Read 52-24.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:36:27 PM by THRAWN » Logged
Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 02:50:56 PM »

Read 52-24.

Seriously.
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Fubar
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Posts: 614

« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 04:25:18 PM »

And while I would agree that Encampment is not "Basic Training" in a military sense, it's a pretty heavy indoctrination of CAP cadet customs and courtesies, drill and ceremony, and general knowledge and SOPs within the week span: door-pounding wake up, regimented PT, room inspections, classroom seminars, drill training, structured dining...the works. A lot of shouting. A lot of on-spot corrections. And some pretty cool activities (firefighting, military orientation flights). I personally think the classes got to be a bit ridiculous, having a full day of classes serving very little to provide the knowledge cadets will require to carry throughout their cadet career and wasting their time sitting in a week of lectures during their summer vacation which is not what they signed up for. But it's definitely a youth version of "boot camp" without what would be considered as "hazing" in the modern era.

Paging Col Lee to the red courtesy phone... paging Col Lee to the red courtesy phone. Your presence is needed in Ohio.
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Robert Hartigan
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 05:37:45 PM »

Ohio Wing is woefully behind the power curve when it comes to encampments! This is why I encouraged my Cadets to ventured out of the state to other Wing's encampments and specifically recommended the ILWG Spring Encampment.

FWIW, Eclipse is the expert that experts call on when it comes to encampments besides being a [darn] good cadet programs officer! Ohio Wing should recruit him to be their encampment commander, I might come out of retirement to help him if that happened.
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Spam
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 06:02:30 PM »

Ohio Wing is woefully behind the power curve when it comes to encampments! This is why I encouraged my Cadets to ventured out of the state to other Wing's encampments and specifically recommended the ILWG Spring Encampment.

FWIW, Eclipse is the expert that experts call on when it comes to encampments besides being a [darn] good cadet programs officer! Ohio Wing should recruit him to be their encampment commander, I might come out of retirement to help him if that happened.



Not all cadets have the option to attend out of state either for financial reasons or (as in my Wing) because they generally aren't approved to. Our encampment staff have run their own show, unconnected to the DCP (when I was the DCP, since they are a separate command and not subordinate to the DCP). It is what it is, and you send your guys there to get the credit and then "deprogram" them when they get back, that this isn't how its supposed to be done.


Really, I read that OHWG letter, and other than the references to "Basics", it seemed fairly on target (e.g. sleep and nutrition, prep activities, PT, etc.). You could do far worse. Sorry if I seem fatalistic but if that's the worst concern, not a big deal.


Cadet Boi, that's good gouge on the ORM training; best wishes to you at encampment.


V/r
Spam


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THRAWN
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 07:23:46 PM »

Ohio Wing is woefully behind the power curve when it comes to encampments! This is why I encouraged my Cadets to ventured out of the state to other Wing's encampments and specifically recommended the ILWG Spring Encampment.

FWIW, Eclipse is the expert that experts call on when it comes to encampments besides being a [darn] good cadet programs officer! Ohio Wing should recruit him to be their encampment commander, I might come out of retirement to help him if that happened.



Not all cadets have the option to attend out of state either for financial reasons or (as in my Wing) because they generally aren't approved to. Our encampment staff have run their own show, unconnected to the DCP (when I was the DCP, since they are a separate command and not subordinate to the DCP). It is what it is, and you send your guys there to get the credit and then "deprogram" them when they get back, that this isn't how its supposed to be done.


Really, I read that OHWG letter, and other than the references to "Basics", it seemed fairly on target (e.g. sleep and nutrition, prep activities, PT, etc.). You could do far worse. Sorry if I seem fatalistic but if that's the worst concern, not a big deal.


Cadet Boi, that's good gouge on the ORM training; best wishes to you at encampment.


V/r
Spam

Huh? How is it that the encampment commander is not working for CO? And then they have to be untrained? Seems like a waste of everyone's limited time and treasure. More cylinders of mediocrity. Eclipse for national encampment director....
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Strup
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Fubar
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 07:36:53 PM »

Huh? How is it that the encampment commander is not working for CO? And then they have to be untrained? Seems like a waste of everyone's limited time and treasure. More cylinders of mediocrity. Eclipse for national encampment director....

Per our regulations, the encampment commander is appointed by the wing commander, not the director of cadet programs. Depending on the politics of the wing, the director of cadet programs can potentially have no influence on how encampment is run.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,809

« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 07:45:51 PM »

Huh? How is it that the encampment commander is not working for CO? And then they have to be untrained? Seems like a waste of everyone's limited time and treasure. More cylinders of mediocrity. Eclipse for national encampment director....

Per our regulations, the encampment commander is appointed by the wing commander, not the director of cadet programs. Depending on the politics of the wing, the director of cadet programs can potentially have no influence on how encampment is run.

Per our regulations, what you just claimed is not correct.
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Strup
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Spam
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Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 08:08:43 PM »

Despite the job title, the DCP does not, in practice, really direct much at all, at least in my Wing. Perhaps a couple of TLCs, but not really any role in Encampments. If you're blessed with a Wing where that's not so, great.


As I was pointedly told (when I was GAWG DCP) the Encampment Commander, as an appointed CC, does not report to the DCP and that as a Director, encampment was not under my oversight - they would handle it without me, thanks so much.  So much is correct, per the pubs. The line is solid from all levels of command to the Wing/CC, and only a dotted line relationship from the DCP to Enc/CC. So, after a couple of years, and some controversies every year which I was powerless to address, I resigned as DCP to take another command tour, which I feel better uses my skill set.


I was merely responding to Mr. Hartigans encouragement to cross pollinate at out of Wing encampments, which are normally not allowed from my Wing (and yes, I am quite familiar with the "shall normally approve" clause thereto, and have had to quote it annually). If you have the option to attend out of Wing, I think its a great idea, just as I support NESA and other ES schools to share points of view/TTPs for the ES mission.


V/r
Spam


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Fubar
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Posts: 614

« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 08:29:26 PM »

Huh? How is it that the encampment commander is not working for CO? And then they have to be untrained? Seems like a waste of everyone's limited time and treasure. More cylinders of mediocrity. Eclipse for national encampment director....

Per our regulations, the encampment commander is appointed by the wing commander, not the director of cadet programs. Depending on the politics of the wing, the director of cadet programs can potentially have no influence on how encampment is run.

Per our regulations, what you just claimed is not correct.

You are in fact correct (which you already know, this is for others who find this thread). The wing commander makes the appointment, but the new encampment pamphlet states the DCP is the supervisor of the encampment commander and is in the chain of command.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
Authorization. Only National Headquarters, regions, wings, and overseas squadrons may authorize an encampment. These echelons may authorize multiple encampments in a given year. The Director of Cadet Programs (or equivalent) is the functional supervisor of the encampment program

Quote from: CAPP 52-24
The Director of Cadet Programs (or equivalent) oversees the encampment program and supervises (or serves as) the encampment commander.

Quote from: CAPP 52-24
Encampment Commander. Appointed by the wing or region commander to direct the overall encampment program, under the supervision of the director of cadet programs.

Again, politics can throw a wrench in that a bit where the CC picks someone the DCP doesn't have a great working relationship, but if the DCP is boxed out of encampment, it's without any regulatory backing.
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Spam
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 09:12:22 PM »

Follow up:

Ref:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual_June_2014_1F6A5D093CD05.pdf

1.2 Key Program Guidance
"a. Authorization. ... The Director of Cadet Programs (or equivalent) oversees the encampment program and supervises (or serves as) the encampment commander".
Clear enough.

1.4 Program Metrics
Based on what I could determine from the past four or so years, no CAPF 50 evals were conducted on entry or graduation, no one did any of the classroom quizzes, no cadet staff were asked to contribute to an AAR, and the encampment commander submitted the final report himself. I'd asked about six times for a copy, and was denied, and was stonewalled when I asked for a telecom review, so I got the message from above and below. After all, it is not mandatory to copy the DCP:  "There is no special benefit nor penalty associated with these metrics; they merely provide targets for the wing and assist wings, regions, and NHQ in managing the encampment program". I can safely assume that, since the word was out that the DCP wasn't a factor, these elements which are of use in fixing overarching Wing CP issues were seen as nonessential, and were promptly ignored.


4.3 Position Descriptions
"Senior staff positoins [sic] are described below. For cadet cadre position descriptions, see CAPP 52-15. Encampments
may customize the descriptions to meet their needs; the outlines below and at CAPP 52-15 are starting points.
a. Encampment Commander. Appointed by the wing or region commander to direct the overall
encampment program, under the supervision of the director of cadet programs". (see also accompanying Fig. 4-1).

Ref:
CAPR 20-1 2 JANUARY 2013 (https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R020_001_73F1BA70FD9EB.pdf)
"Director of Cadet Programs (Applicable to Wings)
Manages and directs all functions related to implementation of the CAP cadet program and Drug Demand Reduction Program in subordinate units".

Yep, I can read it too. My Wing/CC and his Vice (former Eaker and Spaatz cadets themselves) pointed out to me circa 2013 that the line of command must be inviolate, and that a commander should not be "under the supervision" of a staff officer. They mentioned that they formally wrote in protest against the draft change language included in P52-24 and in R20-1 of 20JAN13 in that it improperly inserts a non-command link in the chain of command from Wing to Activity. They told me that they considered the Figure 1 (solid line of command) reference in P52-24 to be improper and incorrect, and that it would not be observed.  Figure 8 (CP Org Chart) of 20-1 does not display an encampment/CC under the DCP, and 20-1 is a Regulation, where 52-24 is only a Pamphlet. So, I saluted and obeyed, and helped where I could; I spent quite a bit of effort arranging HC-130J Combat Talon rides in '15, only to have nobody ready when the plane showed (no, I'm not bothering to do that from now on, until things change).


My recommended successor as DCP has just been selected as our 2017 Enc/CC, so I am as I say, hopeful for the future. Even if I am fired for these thread comments.


V/r
Spam


PS, to Cadet Boi:  please don't let all these possibly boring senior member comments discourage you from attending an encampment, which should be one of the most interesting and challenging events of your cadet career. Go, do, experience, and have fun. Best wishes to you - Spam





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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2016, 10:34:02 PM »

As a former Encampment CC, I concur that once appointed, he is a CC the same as any other and reports directly
to the next echelon's CC, in this case the Wing CC.

With that said...between the activities, and until appointed again, last year's Enc CC isn't anymore, and next year's isn't yet.
It's during those times that the DCP, as part of his normal duties as the wing's OPR for CP, that the DCP is supposed to
be setting the tone and vector for the encampments, and any other major wing-level CP activities.

And the Region counterparts are supposed to be setting goals and standards of performance, not to mention expectations
of performance for the wings to follow.

And the Encampment curriculum has been non-optional, per regulation, since I believe late 2014, but certainly 2015 for sure (would have to look).
52-16, which is an "R", calls out the "P" as the guiding document (the most recent inexplicable change to that ability notwithstanding).

This just points out what I have been saying - while some wings are bending over backwards to comply to the letter,
others are either unaware, or ignoring the mandates, and the Regions and NHQ are turning a blind eye to this issue,
despite both anecdotal and actual evidence of the issue.

Either it's required or it isn't.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:40:20 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 875

« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 11:57:47 PM »

Huh? How is it that the encampment commander is not working for CO? And then they have to be untrained? Seems like a waste of everyone's limited time and treasure. More cylinders of mediocrity. Eclipse for national encampment director....

Per our regulations, the encampment commander is appointed by the wing commander, not the director of cadet programs. Depending on the politics of the wing, the director of cadet programs can potentially have no influence on how encampment is run.

Per our regulations, what you just claimed is not correct.

You are in fact correct (which you already know, this is for others who find this thread). The wing commander makes the appointment, but the new encampment pamphlet states the DCP is the supervisor of the encampment commander and is in the chain of command.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
Authorization. Only National Headquarters, regions, wings, and overseas squadrons may authorize an encampment. These echelons may authorize multiple encampments in a given year. The Director of Cadet Programs (or equivalent) is the functional supervisor of the encampment program

Quote from: CAPP 52-24
The Director of Cadet Programs (or equivalent) oversees the encampment program and supervises (or serves as) the encampment commander.

Quote from: CAPP 52-24
Encampment Commander. Appointed by the wing or region commander to direct the overall encampment program, under the supervision of the director of cadet programs.

Again, politics can throw a wrench in that a bit where the CC picks someone the DCP doesn't have a great working relationship, but if the DCP is boxed out of encampment, it's without any regulatory backing.

Correct.

The Wing Commander selected the Encampment Commander who selects the Commandant for Cadets. The Director of Cadet Programs supervises Encampment as a cadet activity but does not maintain its direction during the actual Encampment.

Now, in our case, the Wing Commander appointed an Encampment Commander who was the Deputy Director of Cadet Programs. The Director of Cadet Programs served as his Commandant for Cadets. I had a similar situation in my own unit that we thoroughly discussed and remedied. I do not believe you should be in a structure where your day-to-day superior becomes your subordinate during a public training event, especially when there's an issue of authorities in how that event is supposed to be supervised from higher up.

As a Training Officer (formerly known as TACs until this past year), I reported to the Chief Training Officer, who reported to the Encampment Commander who reported to the Wing Commander who dropped in on the first weekend for a visit. You could feel the tension and the politics between some of the Wing staff and the Encampment staff.

So, to Spam's point, salute and obey. Would I be willing to get into a debate with the Encampment Commander and challenge his authority on running Encampment? Absolutely not. And unfortunately, there is a lot of deprogramming from Encampment, whether because units don't know how to maintain SOP across the state or because something was taught at Encampment that shouldn't have been taught or taught in a certain manner. We've seen time and time again that cadets, as well as seniors, pass off general knowledge of what they think they know rather than reading the book, to Eclipse's point. As Spam said, Encampment is often used as the credit tool rather than the training/experience tool.

Whether or not the Wing follows protocols to the letter is moot. It is what it is. That's how the Wing Commander runs the Wing. That's how the Region Commander manages the Wing Commander. So at that point, there's nothing that will be done about it until leadership changes, not that I'm asking for that necessarily, just making a general statement. But the fact of it is that this is how Encampment runs in OHWG, having been there in person to observe and mentor.
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