Don't be a knucklehead...

Started by NIN, December 05, 2016, 08:38:50 PM

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Briank

" "if its not specifically allowed, it must be disallowed" "

Actually nice to hear that it's not the overriding rule...  A decade of sportscar racing left me completely in that mindset, and very concerned about getting all details perfect for CAP.  On the sportscar side, if you so much as alter a single bolt in a way that's not explicitly defined you can (and will be) protested!

LTC Don

Quote from: NIN on December 07, 2016, 04:33:48 PM
Boots:  Nowhere does it say "tuck in the laces."

Actually, 39-1 does say it:
Quote6.4.3. Footwear (males/females) Combat boots. Will be worn with the BDU, or the flight duty
uniform. Black, with or without safety toe, plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without
perforated seam. Zipper or elastic inserts optional, mesh inserts (for "jungle boot" style) are optional;
smooth or scotch-grained leather or man-made material, and may have a high gloss or patent finish. The
black combat boot can be worn (optional) with the service dress and service uniforms when not wearing a
skirt, maternity service dress and/or maternity jumper. Laces will either be tied and tucked in the boot or
tied and wrapped around the boot.
No bowtie bootlaces will be visible. Any logos will be the same color
as the boot.
Italics mine.

The fourth picture of the blousing examples in the IP, is called 'stovepiping' and definitely does not meet the definition of 'blousing'. If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway), they should not be such that there's no 'fold' or 'blouse' over the top of the boot.  This is to allow for freedom of movement when bending or crouching.  The use of  blousing bands is merely convenience when in garrison and not in the field.  Actual blousing is to prevent critters such as ticks from getting access to the ankles and other sensitive parts.
Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
MER-NC-143
Gill Rob Wilson #1891

Damron

Quote from: Briank on December 08, 2016, 12:39:42 AM
" "if its not specifically allowed, it must be disallowed" "

Actually nice to hear that it's not the overriding rule...  A decade of sportscar racing left me completely in that mindset, and very concerned about getting all details perfect for CAP.  On the sportscar side, if you so much as alter a single bolt in a way that's not explicitly defined you can (and will be) protested!

Here's the big difference, in autocross and sportscar racing there is a common reference, stock condition.

USACAP

"In the field" whatever you tuck into a boot is going to find its way out, fast if you're being active.
Not only that but it screws up the lacing of the boot (when the pants slide out the boot will loosen), so it's generally not recommended.
Kind of a personal preference matter, but most folks end up blousing or using the built-in drawstrings.
I prefer to pull them all the way down to my ankles and tie them there to keep the bugs and dirt out.
Do an image search of, say, Ranger School and you will see the same thing.

Quote from: LTC Don on December 08, 2016, 01:44:12 AM
If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway),

THRAWN

I have done a lot more active stuff in the field than CAP activities and never once had my tucked trousers come out.of my boots. Having the correct length helps.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

kwe1009

Quote from: USACAP on December 08, 2016, 04:17:51 AM
"In the field" whatever you tuck into a boot is going to find its way out, fast if you're being active.
Not only that but it screws up the lacing of the boot (when the pants slide out the boot will loosen), so it's generally not recommended.
Kind of a personal preference matter, but most folks end up blousing or using the built-in drawstrings.
I prefer to pull them all the way down to my ankles and tie them there to keep the bugs and dirt out.
Do an image search of, say, Ranger School and you will see the same thing.

Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

NIN

Quote from: LTC Don on December 08, 2016, 01:44:12 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 07, 2016, 04:33:48 PM
Boots:  Nowhere does it say "tuck in the laces."

Actually, 39-1 does say it:
Quote6.4.3. Footwear (males/females) Combat boots. Will be worn with the BDU, or the flight duty
uniform. Black, with or without safety toe, plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without
perforated seam. Zipper or elastic inserts optional, mesh inserts (for "jungle boot" style) are optional;
smooth or scotch-grained leather or man-made material, and may have a high gloss or patent finish. The
black combat boot can be worn (optional) with the service dress and service uniforms when not wearing a
skirt, maternity service dress and/or maternity jumper. Laces will either be tied and tucked in the boot or
tied and wrapped around the boot.
No bowtie bootlaces will be visible. Any logos will be the same color
as the boot.
Italics mine.

The fourth picture of the blousing examples in the IP, is called 'stovepiping' and definitely does not meet the definition of 'blousing'. If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway), they should not be such that there's no 'fold' or 'blouse' over the top of the boot.  This is to allow for freedom of movement when bending or crouching.  The use of  blousing bands is merely convenience when in garrison and not in the field.  Actual blousing is to prevent critters such as ticks from getting access to the ankles and other sensitive parts.

Thanks for pointing out the laces thing. I somehow missed that.  The language reflects prior wear policies :)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

USACAP

This is such a minor and nitpicky matter, but no way man. If you're running and gunning, your pants will be all untucked and funky.
When it was 115 degrees, how the heck did you keep your pants tucked-in? That sounds as awesome as a wool sweater in August.
Maybe I spent too much time with Marines (metal blousers) and SOCOM (YOLO) but I can't recall seeing this pants tucked in thing in the CENTCOM AOR the past 15 years.

Quote from: kwe1009 on December 08, 2016, 02:01:03 PM
Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

kwe1009

Quote from: USACAP on December 15, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
This is such a minor and nitpicky matter, but no way man. If you're running and gunning, your pants will be all untucked and funky.
When it was 115 degrees, how the heck did you keep your pants tucked-in? That sounds as awesome as a wool sweater in August.
Maybe I spent too much time with Marines (metal blousers) and SOCOM (YOLO) but I can't recall seeing this pants tucked in thing in the CENTCOM AOR the past 15 years.

Quote from: kwe1009 on December 08, 2016, 02:01:03 PM
Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

Very simple, the Air Force and CAP are not "running and gunning" in 115 degree heat 99.9% of the time.  I know that everyone wants to be an operator but that isn't CAP.  We need to follow the regulations set forth from CAP.  I am fairly certain that nobody has died or had a medical emergency because they properly bloused their pants in Civil Air Patrol.