Don't be a knucklehead...

[NIN]

So, in the previous thread about stitching down insignia, a lot of things were thrown around about doing things that "aren't in the manual."

Sometimes, when reading a manual or a regulation, it helps to understand the "commander's intent," and often, the "commander's intent" is not terribly clear.

In the case of the uniform manual, there are an absolute ton of shortcuts, tips, etc.  Some of them are "right," some of them are "undefined," and yet other are "not right for our circumstances, uniform, culture or methods."

Example:  Highly spitshined black boots. Its taken as a pretty universal given that polish-able leather footware should highly spitshined, or look like a brand new 8 ball or something.

But what does the reg say? At least as far as combat boots go:  "6.4.1.4. Boots. Black combat boots will be without design and can be worn with the service dress and service uniforms. They will be highly polished, high gloss or patent leather." 

So define highly polished? Is that like "equal to patent leather," or is having a solid brush shine A-OK?  (back in the day, it said "black leather," without defining "highly shined," so yeah. "Yes, cadet, your boots are black.")  There's a fair degree of latitude there between one extreme or the other.

(Minor note: oh, look, the specific paragraph in the manual describing boots and their wear doesn't even say that "black combat boots" can be worn with the "working and utility uniforms," only "service dress and service uniforms." Does that mean we stop wearing combat boots with BDUs or blue BDUs, or the flight duty uniforms?  No, its covered elsewhere, such as paras 5.1.1.7, 5.2.1.7, 5.2.2.6, 8.2.10, etc that say "black combat boots." But what a conundrum, right? Do we immediately run out and yell at people for wearing boots with working and utility uniforms?  No.)

here's another conundrum for the "if its not specifically allowed, it must be disallowed" crowd : (ETA: mind you, I believe in the "if its not allowed, its disallowed" sort of thing, in general.  You can't go around wearing green gloves just because "39-1 doesn't say I can't." No, no no...)

para 5.1.1.5 says, in part, "Blouse trousers over combat boots. Tucking the BDU trousers into the boot is optional. Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

Thats great. My definition of "evenly bloused," "gathered in," and "draped loosely" might differ from another guy's definition, but I think most folks generally go with the Potter Stewart definition of "I know it when I see it."

But, the manual says NOTHING about boot blousers like this:

or these:

or even these:


Are you wrong if you use them? The manual doesn't say you can, right? Guess you're wrong.

Even so, within the definition, which is the correct way to "actually blouse the boots?" The manual is mute on this. 

You have to gain an understanding of the intent of "blousing" and understand it could look like this:

or this:

or this:

or even:


There a considerable difference there, but all are generally considered "correct."

Recently, a Lt Col in my wing came to my unit meeting and dressed down my cadet commander because the brim of his ABU cap looked like this:


instead of darn near absolutely flat, as it comes off the shelf at AAFES:


Nowhere in the 39-1, especially para 6.2.8, does it say you can curve the brim of the hat.  But I suspect everybody knows you're not supposed to look like this guy:


I had to straighten this Lt Col out.  It was not pretty.

There's a million of them, right?  If I sew down my squadron patch and make it so I can't put something in my pocket, am I wrong?  I haven't put anything in a BDU shirt pockets in 15+ years (and yes, I've worn BDUs many, many times in that period), but by rendering my pocket unusable in the name of sewing convenience, am I somehow contravening 39-1? Probably not.

At the end of the day, however, it should be understood that there are *some* ways that the uniform gets worn that are not entirely specifically covered in the regs.  If you're keeping with the intent of the wear pattern in the regulations, you're *probably* all right.  But again, that intent isn't always clear.

Remember kids, Lt Kaffee got it right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgIBG8q1Gjc

[Toad1168]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you for stating what should be obvious.

[Eclipse]

Thank you for stating what should be obvious.

Seriously.

I'm as pedantic as the next guy, but there's a difference between a philosophical argument about what's approved, and
proper when you're thumbing through the annual Sears Catalog for a new uniform, and the ground-level reality of the CAP multiform.
(Don't bother searching, I'm sure in 10 years I've contradicted the above several times).

Further to this, though, is the idea of "dressing down" anyone, let alone someone not in your charge and further a cadet.
As long as it's "Safe - Efficient - - Effective" and doesn't violate a published reg or pamphlet, move on.

White socks under combat boots?  The issues is I can see your socks, not that they are white.
Black Sabbath T-Shirt?   Again, whatever, leave your blouse on.

When I see issues with other people's people?  If it's an adult, I may say something discreet, or send an email later,
but cadets?   Unless I know them personally, or have a direct line of authority myself, I'm mentioning it to the
other CC for them to handle.

[NIN]

Another thing:

The manual doesn't say "this is a combat boot"

so "black combat boots", right?















Boy, there are some pretty broad definitions of combat boots.  8"? 10"?  Patent leather?  Can I have a tall heel?  How about a crepe sole?   Silver eyelets OK?


Well, they *are* military boots.


Do jump boots meet the definition of "no design?" Zipper or no zipper?

Again, Potter Stewart, right?

[USACAP]

Seriously man?
Why are random LTCs showing up and messing with your cadets?
Some non-hat wearing bubba from wing showed up to nitpick cadet uniforms?
Get a life dude.
This is one aspect of CAP I genuinely dislike - the unhealthy uniform fetish many exhibit.

[Eclipse]

This is one aspect of CAP I genuinely dislike - the unhealthy uniform fetish many exhibit.

It's a product of the lack of leadership, mentorship, and accountability for both performance and failure which is inherent in CAP.
No one shows the average member the "right way", nor directs them to stay in their lane.

It's also a reasonable push back when everything is on your own dime.

The USAF and military in general can establish whatever cultural norms and traditions it wants because it
issues the entirety of the wardrobe for new recruits, so even if a year down the road an A1C or SrA gets punted
for wearing a Cubs hat on duty, there's no excuse as he was told and inspected on the "right way" initially.

That doesn't exist in CAP, even a little, heck, CAP can't even agree what the term "uniform" means, let alone how to wear it properly.

Which makes it all the more amusing when people start making things up.

[Eclipse]

Dupe - ignore.  NIN's pics have stretch this thread across threes monitors!

[SarDragon]

Get bigger monitors. It only uses 1.5 of mine. 

[RiverAux]

In general, there are probably a number of unofficial local procedures and policies on uniform wear that do deserve to be looked at by folks outside the unit -- however, if they're going to say anything about a potential issue it needs to be through the chain of command and they need to be sure that they're right. 

[NIN]

Sorry about that 'uge pic. There's no "not just full size" function in the image tags on the board here...

[DJ Light Chop]

I used to go to a store that sold board games (Settlers of Cattan, Ticket to Ride, that kind of thing).  They had a whole shelf of demo games you could play in the back of the store to see if you liked it before you shelled out big cash for a game (I once bought Fortune and Glory there for a hundred bucks).  One game that I tried out was a card game that I didn't care for (and don't remember the name of).  I read the directions and the final instruction was:

"Don't be a dick"

I feel this should be included in most instructions.  Including CAP.  Perhaps especially CAP.  I think you should have to complete "Don't be a dick" training just like opsec and eo as part of level 1.

The idea of someone joining an organization and rising through the ranks so they scream at people in an attempt to feel somehow superior over fairly unimportant nonsense like the natural curve of a baseball cap is ridiculous to me.

[Eclipse]

Saw this in the...ahem..."library" and thought of this thread.



For better AND worse, this is how far too much CAP "training" is accomplished.

[NIN]

I used to go to a store that sold board games (Settlers of Cattan, Ticket to Ride, that kind of thing).  They had a whole shelf of demo games you could play in the back of the store to see if you liked it before you shelled out big cash for a game (I once bought Fortune and Glory there for a hundred bucks).  One game that I tried out was a card game that I didn't care for (and don't remember the name of).  I read the directions and the final instruction was:

"Don't be a dick"

I feel this should be included in most instructions.  Including CAP.  Perhaps especially CAP.  I think you should have to complete "Don't be a dick" training just like opsec and eo as part of level 1.

The idea of someone joining an organization and rising through the ranks so they scream at people in an attempt to feel somehow superior over fairly unimportant nonsense like the natural curve of a baseball cap is ridiculous to me.

Well, yeah.

I didn't mean to imply in my original post that this guy "screamed" at my cadet commander. He didn't.

He thought he was being correct by telling the cadet commander that he's not supposed to do that to the brim.  He was not.

I merely meant that as an illustration of how it is easy to take "its not in the book" to an illogical extreme.

There are many others like this.

Boots:  Nowhere does it say "tuck in the laces." We do that as a matter of custom, but the manual does not specify, so if a member has his laces flapping in the breeze, is he wrong?
Now, nowhere does it say that zippered inserts are allowed anymore.   Does that mean that zippered jump boots are not allowed?
Laces: are they right over left, or left over right?  Ask a cadet, they will probably tell you they got briefed on this at encampment and gigged accordingly...

Hats:
Some people (not me) think that since there is a prohibition in the manual on "dog dishing" or "ranger rolling" the patrol cap, what that really means is you need to stick a piece of oval-shaped cardboard up under your cap and smooth the thing out so you look more like Matthew Ridgeway than Stanley McChrystal:


vs

(WRT the blocked hats above: those things are $100. YES $100!)

There is kind of a big difference between "not ranger rolling your hat" and "starch blocking it so badly that you can't ever put it in your pocket, and you can even use it as a jack stand to hold up your 1993 Corolla..")

Can I use jeweler's clutches to hold my insignia on the uniform instead of the brass frogs that come stock?  Well, technically it didn't come from AAFES like that, so you better stick with the frogs (hint: I use jeweler's clutches)

Am I wrong if I don't use the belt with velcro that we've been suggested to use in the ABU guidance?  What about the erstwhile cadet commander who asks all his cadets to pick up the bottom of their ABU shirt so he can check, and not having the velcro one is a gig?  (don't think it can happen?)

These are all things we've done over the years "customarily" (cadets come back from encampment with that oval cardboard thing and I want to scream..), but are really not required.

Some things, however, are intended the way they are sold. Get a shirt from AAFES, the sleeve crease is at the back edge of the epaulet.  Thats the correct place. I've seen cadets re-crease the shirt in the center of the epaulet so that the crease ran down the center of their wing patch... Uh, maybe not, guys.  "Hey, dude, AAFES didn't pay that vendor millions of dollars to put that crease in that shirt in that place only to have you obliterate it."

[Spam]

Good list of errata. Don't forget "bridges":  making sure that everyone laces their shoes/boots the same way, with the lace between the foremost eyelets passing UNDER (no bridge) rather than OVER the foremost eyelets.

Got that one from a USN CPO at Orlando NTC a couple of decades ago and I've seen it crop up on occasion inside CAP.

Such wastes of time and effort that could have been better applied to combat/mission effective training.


V/r
Spam

[Eclipse]

That dog bowl above would be prohibited - I'm seeing that creep back into the universe of ABUs.

[NIN]

BTW, and this will make some people aghast with horror, but I don't ever inspect a uniform with a stitch gauge or a machinist's ruler. (I seldom inspect anymore, generally a walk thru and then a talk with the leadership afterward)

Why? From "normal inspection distance" (18-24 inches), "if it looks wrong, it is wrong."

I've seen insignia on uniforms that looked 100% right, and was 3/16" off. 

I've also seen insignia that looked completely off, and yet, when measured, was dead on.

The malady more often than not isn't that the insignia requires vernier calipers to ensure that they're right, its that the insignia was never put on the correct orientation in the first place, and thats is a larger, "big pieces" issue that is recognizable from > 1m away.   9 / 10 times, its not the 1" measurement of a cadet's chevrons that gets him, its that one is so crooked that I can see it from across the room.  Or that he's only wearing one.

If he's got both, they're on the collar in the correct orientation, and they look like they're 1" from the edge of the collar, I'm pretty cool with that.

A number of years ago, after I "un-retired," I noticed that cadets at my unit were late to the meetings all the time.  A closer look at the trend showed that most of them got to the meeting before 6:30, but they were in civvies and all disappeared into the locker room in the armory to change, and for the most part, it took them longer to change than they had, making them tardy to formation.

One weekend, we had a training class at wing HQ and it was 2-3 minutes before the scheduled start time. One of our NCOs whips into the parking lot, bails out of his car and runs into the building carrying his uniform.  5 minutes after the start of class, he finally makes his way into his seat.

At the first break, I pulled him aside with our cadet commander.

"Hey, Smithers, I noticed you were late this morning. You know, if you'd have shown up dressed in your uniform, you wouldn't have been late."

"Yessir."

"So why didn't you come in your BDUs?"

"Because I have a long drive, sir, and I didn't want them to get wrinkled."

"Excuse me?"

"I didn't want to get a gig for a wrinkled uniform, sir."

I turned to my cadet commander "Lieutenant, do you think if we're gigging cadets for wrinkles on a combat uniform that maybe, just maybe, our inspection standards or our expectations for uniform wear are a bit too rigorous?"

"Uhhh, I suppose so, sir."

Just a month or so ago, we had an aviation day at the local airport.  I directed "sleeves down" for all, because it was a windy, rainy day in the mid-50s. No need to have sleeves up.

One of our cadet NCOs shows up with his sleeves rolled, and I happened to see him when he got out of his car.

"Hey, sergeant, we're sleeves down today."

"Uh, but, uh...."

"Sleeves down, sergeant. Got it?"

He looked around furtively.. "Sir, do you have an iron?"

"An iron? No, I don't tend to come to aviation days with an iron. Why?"

"Because, if I unroll my sleeves, I have to press my sleeves or they'll look bad."

Cadet commander was not standing nearby, else he'd have gotten an earful

[EMT-83]

I like the "Don't be a Dick" line of thinking.

At the infamous McGuire Airshow fiasco, I assisted a cadet who had passed out in formation waiting for chow. We got Cadet Snuffy squared away and returned our attention to getting cadets fed before the buses carted them off without breakfast. While on the ground with Cadet Snuffy one of my pant legs became unbloused, which went unnoticed by me but not by a highly self-important Major (who had no problem eating his breakfast before the cadets), who called me out very loudly in front of the formation.

He couldn't quietly say, "Hey Lieutenant, look down." He was a Dick. Unfortunately, they're all too common.

[kwe1009]

Some things, however, are intended the way they are sold. Get a shirt from AAFES, the sleeve crease is at the back edge of the epaulet.  Thats the correct place. I've seen cadets re-crease the shirt in the center of the epaulet so that the crease ran down the center of their wing patch... Uh, maybe not, guys.  "Hey, dude, AAFES didn't pay that vendor millions of dollars to put that crease in that shirt in that place only to have you obliterate it."

I'll have to disagree with this one.  The quality control standards of AAFES does not cover sleeve creases and they can be all over the place.  It just depends on how it was put in the press.  When ABUs were first authorized and the "no ironing" mandate was high, there was a directive that came down that allowed the sleeves to be re-creased so they were in the proper spot.  Having the crease off on a shirt with a lot of stripes looks really bad.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not tucking in the boot laces inside your boots may become a safety hazard. They can catch in something and become untied. Some cadets have laces so long that the loops almost touch their ankles.
However I seldom correct this... Unless it is so obvious...

Myself, I use speed-lace boots. Cross extra lace behind the boot, back to the front, and use a figure-eight knot. No long laces to catch on anything, not enough length of shoelace to catch onto anything
nor even be able to tuck into the boot.

No loop to catch into anything undoing the tie. And the material of the shoelace is so that the knot can be undone as quickly as untying one the normal way...

What I understood as "blousing over the top of the boots" was not tucking pants into boots, using instead the blousing bands. Maybe I was wrong interpreting it this way but I associated it with the "leaving
pants untucked with jungle boots." I do not insist on my squadron wearing their pants untucked as long as they look "bloused" unless I go out as part of a ground team. Then I ask everyone to tuck their
trousers into their boots. Little concern about little buggers... Remember ticks...?

[NIN]

I like the "Don't be a Dick" line of thinking.

I should probably not repeat this, but someone back in August said "NIN, tell us the secret of retention!"

I said:

"1) Don't sell the CAP you want, sell the CAP you have.
2) Do cool and interesting things, don't just march around in circles.
3) Don't be a dick."

I had two chaplains in the room, but they got it.

[Briank]

" "if its not specifically allowed, it must be disallowed" "

Actually nice to hear that it's not the overriding rule...  A decade of sportscar racing left me completely in that mindset, and very concerned about getting all details perfect for CAP.  On the sportscar side, if you so much as alter a single bolt in a way that's not explicitly defined you can (and will be) protested!

[LTC Don]

Boots:  Nowhere does it say "tuck in the laces."

Actually, 39-1 does say it:

6.4.3. Footwear (males/females) Combat boots. Will be worn with the BDU, or the flight duty
uniform. Black, with or without safety toe, plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without
perforated seam. Zipper or elastic inserts optional, mesh inserts (for "jungle boot" style) are optional;
smooth or scotch-grained leather or man-made material, and may have a high gloss or patent finish. The
black combat boot can be worn (optional) with the service dress and service uniforms when not wearing a
skirt, maternity service dress and/or maternity jumper. Laces will either be tied and tucked in the boot or
tied and wrapped around the boot. No bowtie bootlaces will be visible. Any logos will be the same color
as the boot.

Italics mine.

The fourth picture of the blousing examples in the IP, is called 'stovepiping' and definitely does not meet the definition of 'blousing'. If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway), they should not be such that there's no 'fold' or 'blouse' over the top of the boot.  This is to allow for freedom of movement when bending or crouching.  The use of  blousing bands is merely convenience when in garrison and not in the field.  Actual blousing is to prevent critters such as ticks from getting access to the ankles and other sensitive parts.

[Damron]

" "if its not specifically allowed, it must be disallowed" "

Actually nice to hear that it's not the overriding rule...  A decade of sportscar racing left me completely in that mindset, and very concerned about getting all details perfect for CAP.  On the sportscar side, if you so much as alter a single bolt in a way that's not explicitly defined you can (and will be) protested!

Here's the big difference, in autocross and sportscar racing there is a common reference, stock condition.

[USACAP]

"In the field" whatever you tuck into a boot is going to find its way out, fast if you're being active.
Not only that but it screws up the lacing of the boot (when the pants slide out the boot will loosen), so it's generally not recommended.
Kind of a personal preference matter, but most folks end up blousing or using the built-in drawstrings.
I prefer to pull them all the way down to my ankles and tie them there to keep the bugs and dirt out.
Do an image search of, say, Ranger School and you will see the same thing.

If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway),

[THRAWN]

I have done a lot more active stuff in the field than CAP activities and never once had my tucked trousers come out.of my boots. Having the correct length helps.

[kwe1009]

"In the field" whatever you tuck into a boot is going to find its way out, fast if you're being active.
Not only that but it screws up the lacing of the boot (when the pants slide out the boot will loosen), so it's generally not recommended.
Kind of a personal preference matter, but most folks end up blousing or using the built-in drawstrings.
I prefer to pull them all the way down to my ankles and tie them there to keep the bugs and dirt out.
Do an image search of, say, Ranger School and you will see the same thing.

Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

[NIN]

Boots:  Nowhere does it say "tuck in the laces."

Actually, 39-1 does say it:

6.4.3. Footwear (males/females) Combat boots. Will be worn with the BDU, or the flight duty
uniform. Black, with or without safety toe, plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without
perforated seam. Zipper or elastic inserts optional, mesh inserts (for "jungle boot" style) are optional;
smooth or scotch-grained leather or man-made material, and may have a high gloss or patent finish. The
black combat boot can be worn (optional) with the service dress and service uniforms when not wearing a
skirt, maternity service dress and/or maternity jumper. Laces will either be tied and tucked in the boot or
tied and wrapped around the boot. No bowtie bootlaces will be visible. Any logos will be the same color
as the boot.

Italics mine.

The fourth picture of the blousing examples in the IP, is called 'stovepiping' and definitely does not meet the definition of 'blousing'. If the pants are stuck down into the boot (which they should be when in the field anyway), they should not be such that there's no 'fold' or 'blouse' over the top of the boot.  This is to allow for freedom of movement when bending or crouching.  The use of  blousing bands is merely convenience when in garrison and not in the field.  Actual blousing is to prevent critters such as ticks from getting access to the ankles and other sensitive parts.

Thanks for pointing out the laces thing. I somehow missed that.  The language reflects prior wear policies

[USACAP]

This is such a minor and nitpicky matter, but no way man. If you're running and gunning, your pants will be all untucked and funky.
When it was 115 degrees, how the heck did you keep your pants tucked-in? That sounds as awesome as a wool sweater in August.
Maybe I spent too much time with Marines (metal blousers) and SOCOM (YOLO) but I can't recall seeing this pants tucked in thing in the CENTCOM AOR the past 15 years.

Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

[kwe1009]

This is such a minor and nitpicky matter, but no way man. If you're running and gunning, your pants will be all untucked and funky.
When it was 115 degrees, how the heck did you keep your pants tucked-in? That sounds as awesome as a wool sweater in August.
Maybe I spent too much time with Marines (metal blousers) and SOCOM (YOLO) but I can't recall seeing this pants tucked in thing in the CENTCOM AOR the past 15 years.

Through many tours in far away dusty and rocky lands, I haven't had a problem with my pants coming out of my boots ever.  The trick is to use the wide blousing bands to hold your pants in the boot.  As for blousing like Army Rangers, that is not authorized.

From CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.5, "Whether tucked in or bloused, the trouser must be evenly bloused (gathered in and draped loosely) over the top of the combat boot and must present a bloused appearance."

Very simple, the Air Force and CAP are not "running and gunning" in 115 degree heat 99.9% of the time.  I know that everyone wants to be an operator but that isn't CAP.  We need to follow the regulations set forth from CAP.  I am fairly certain that nobody has died or had a medical emergency because they properly bloused their pants in Civil Air Patrol.