Chaplain Corps Emergency Services School

Started by Mathews, December 01, 2016, 01:11:04 AM

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Eclipse

Quote from: SarDragon on December 11, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Really? In my time in CAP, I have NEVER seen a Chaplain exhibit that sort of behavior. Ever.

Consider yourself lucky.

#shoutingmatch #BTDT

"That Others May Zoom"

Damron

#81
Quote from: SarDragon on December 11, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 12:17:35 AM
...I guess somebody walking around a disaster explaining that the deaths were part of God's will or that the departed are now living in the paradise of heaven if they accepted Christ as their savior is likely to have some comforting effect for some....

Really? In my time in CAP, I have NEVER seen a Chaplain exhibit that sort of behavior. Ever.


The context I suggested was a mass-casualty event.  My question is, what's their role in a mass-casualty event?  They don't have training or licensing in clinical counseling.  So, what's left? Pastoral counseling? Very few chaplains are licensed pastoral counselors and pastoral counselors invoke doctrine.  So, what's left?  Pastoral skills?  You can't pastor without reference to religious doctrine. I can't imagine a pastor not invoking their faith to comfort others if that's the only tool on their belt, or collar.   So, what's left? Skills learned through CAP training? Inadequate. Why don't we start training medical providers if it's that easy.

It sounds like we need more LPCC's, LCSW's, psychiatrists, and psychologists if we have a need for secular counseling and grief counseling in disaster scenarios.

So, we recruit chaplains with religious ordination in at least one faith in which proselytizing is a tenet.  Then, we don't let them proselytize and then give them roles that anybody could perform or roles that they are professionally unqualified for.

So, in the case of a mass-casualty event, a Christian chaplain should announce, "Hey everybody, I'm not a counseling professional but if you are a follower of the faith represented on my collar I might be able to use the doctrine of your faith to provide comfort. It rarely works for emergeant situations but that's all I got. You might want to talk to a CISM officer. They haven't been to NESA but they are professionals.  We probably should have recruited more professionals for that role but somebody thought we would be perfect for mass-casualty events when we are really better prepared to give prayers at change of commands".

Eventually, we are going to have a cadet kill themself when we recommend they speak to a chaplain and instead of telling the chaplain they are homesick they reveal they are gay, transgendered, pregnant, or depressed and aren't refered to a professional or parent. It could happen and we are creating the conditions for it to happen.  Our chaplains are describing themselves as counselors and seeking the confidence of those in their counsel by promising priest-penitent privilege.  What would the parents of cadets think of that?

If we believe what chaplains are telling us, they really should be a CISM asset.



Spam

Hi Damron. Interesting points, thanks.


Are you perhaps mixing metaphors though, between three issues: (1) underlying pervasive disorders and sequelae (e.g. pregnancy), (2) encampment stress related anxiety and (3) mass casualty incident stress?


Perhaps you're right and "professional" medical help is the correct answer at all times for case 1 instead of chaplains. The huge suicide rate among those with transgender disorders (since you bring them up) speaks to how successful the MD/PhD community is with the current "celebrate, operate and medicate" line of "therapy" (TM) as opposed to working from the assumption that something is broken (rather than to be celebrated). Yet, even if we had them, that's not CAP's mission. We should stay OUT of such issues, leaving them to the parents. So, case 1 is OFF LIMITS for CAP.


If you're thinking case 2 (encampments) are therapy venues for case 1, I certainly don't think that's within the scope of the program of record. Unit commanders shouldn't be sending such corner cases to encampment in the first place. Cadets THAT seriously burdened need to be sent home ASAP - not provided therapy, regardless of the provider. We are not a primary care provider!  What is under discussion here is case 3 - the mass casualty issue.


At any rate, Damron, I think this level of counseling/therapy for cadets is NOT something CAP should be dealing with. with cadets and especially in encampment settings. I think you and I might agree on that? Then, perhaps we might agree that chaplains (and HSOs, and all officers) should know their limitations?


R/
Spam

Chappie

#83
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 02:46:45 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 11, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 12:17:35 AM
...I guess somebody walking around a disaster explaining that the deaths were part of God's will or that the departed are now living in the paradise of heaven if they accepted Christ as their savior is likely to have some comforting effect for some....

Really? In my time in CAP, I have NEVER seen a Chaplain exhibit that sort of behavior. Ever.


The context I suggested was a mass-casualty event.  My question is, what's their role in a mass-casualty event?  They don't have training or licensing in clinical counseling.  So, what's left? Pastoral counseling? Very few chaplains are licensed pastoral counselors and pastoral counselors invoke doctrine.  So, what's left?  Pastoral skills?  You can't pastor without reference to religious doctrine. I can't imagine a pastor not invoking their faith to comfort others if that's the only tool on their belt, or collar.   So, what's left? Skills learned through CAP training? Inadequate. Why don't we start training medical providers if it's that easy.

It sounds like we need more LPCC's, LCSW's, psychiatrists, and psychologists if we have a need for secular counseling and grief counseling in disaster scenarios.

So, we recruit chaplains with religious ordination in at least one faith in which proselytizing is a tenet.  Then, we don't let them proselytize and then give them roles that anybody could perform or roles that they are professionally unqualified for.

So, in the case of a mass-casualty event, a Christian chaplain should announce, "Hey everybody, I'm not a counseling professional but if you are a follower of the faith represented on my collar I might be able to use the doctrine of your faith to provide comfort. It rarely works for emergeant situations but that's all I got. You might want to talk to a CISM officer. They haven't been to NESA but they are professionals.  We probably should have recruited more professionals for that role but somebody thought we would be perfect for mass-casualty events when we are really better prepared to give prayers at change of commands".

Eventually, we are going to have a cadet kill themself when we recommend they speak to a chaplain and instead of telling the chaplain they are homesick they reveal they are gay, transgendered, pregnant, or depressed and aren't refered to a professional or parent. It could happen and we are creating the conditions for it to happen.  Our chaplains are describing themselves as counselors and seeking the confidence of those in their counsel by promising priest-penitent privilege.  What would the parents of cadets think of that?

If we believe what chaplains are telling us, they really should be a CISM asset.

The context I suggested was a mass-casualty event.  My question is, what's their role in a mass-casualty event?  They don't have training or licensing in clinical counseling.  So, what's left? Pastoral counseling? Very few chaplains are licensed pastoral counselors and pastoral counselors invoke doctrine.  So, what's left?  Pastoral skills?  You can't pastor without reference to religious doctrine. I can't imagine a pastor not invoking their faith to comfort others if that's the only tool on their belt, or collar.   So, what's left? Skills learned through CAP training? Inadequate. Why don't we start training medical providers if it's that easy.

It sounds like we need more LPCC's, LCSW's, psychiatrists, and psychologists if we have a need for secular counseling and grief counseling in disaster scenarios.


The role of a chaplain at a Mass Casualty  event is the same as other care givers....to assess the immediate needs of the victims.  It is not a time for "long term" counseling.  CAP training or training recognized by CAP? Two separate issues.  CAP does not provide training for Mass Casualty responses...however, CAP does recognize (like other organizations) FEMA courses (Mass Casualty is one of them).  CAP and its Chaplain Corps uses Psychological First-Aid and Resiliency tools (as does the military).  Having directed CCRSCs in the past, we offered training in these areas from *gasp* secular organizations that provided certification.

So, we recruit chaplains with religious ordination in at least one faith in which proselytizing is a tenet.  Then, we don't let them proselytize and then give them roles that anybody could perform or roles that they are professionally unqualified for.


That is news to me that "we recruit chaplains with religious ordination in at least one faith in which proselytizing is a tenet". We look for Chaplains who have an understanding of what it means to serve in a pluralistic/secular environment.  During my tenure as a Wing/Region Chaplain that there have been those occasions where I have had to tell a member of the Chaplain Corps that their service would be better fitted somewhere else, that CAP was not the right place for them.  It was also my responsibility to help provide training/resources for effective service.

So, in the case of a mass-casualty event, a Christian chaplain should announce, "Hey everybody, I'm not a counseling professional but if you are a follower of the faith represented on my collar I might be able to use the doctrine of your faith to provide comfort. It rarely works for emergeant situations but that's all I got. You might want to talk to a CISM officer. They haven't been to NESA but they are professionals.  We probably should have recruited more professionals for that role but somebody thought we would be perfect for mass-casualty events when we are really better prepared to give prayers at change of commands".

Having worked more Mass Casualty events than I would care to share during my years as a Law Enforcement/Public Safety Chaplain, I find that described scenario as preposterous.  As shared in my opening remark, as "first responders" we are seeking to meet the immediate need: it may be moving them out of the immediate area, providing water or something to eat, a shoulder to cry or beat on, providing guidance for handling the aftermath of the event, and the list can go on.  Like other ES ratings in CAP, the Chaplain Corps uses FEMA courses as part of the training -- the same courses that are also used by other professional groups like  LE, EMS, Fire, Mental Health, etc  As for  Mass Casualty events, these are few and far between in our CAP world, but in the outside world where CAP services may be called upon, it is something that our Chaplain Corps personnel should be trained for.

Eventually, we are going to have a cadet kill themself when we recommend they speak to a chaplain and instead of telling the chaplain they are homesick they reveal they are gay, transgendered, pregnant, or depressed and aren't referred to a professional or parent. It could happen and we are creating the conditions for it to happen.  Our chaplains are describing themselves as counselors and seeking the confidence of those in their counsel by promising priest-penitent privilege.  What would the parents of cadets think of that?

Pastors and Chaplains, while maintaining the priest-penitent privilege and the confidentiality statues of the state they reside in, do refer when specialized or long-term counseling is warranted.  Kinda like the medical field: Being a doctor at a Family practice and referring to a Cardiologist.  One should know their limitations and skills.  Believe it or not, some states have laws that prohibit the counselor from sharing information with the parent.  As Spam pointed out, Encampment is not a venue for "long-term", "therapeutic" counseling to take place. 

If we believe what chaplains are telling us, they really should be a CISM asset.

CISM is a multi-disciplinary function.  A CISM team is composed of individuals from the following fields: mental health, medical, clergy, and peer representative.

Having served as a Chaplain in CAP for 20+ years  and 25+ years of LE/PS Chaplaincy and 30+ years of pastoral ministry (all three overlapping...so don't think for a moment that I offered the prayer at Kitty Hawk when the Wright Brothers took their first  flight :) ), I can attest that a person of the cloth is a welcomed sight in many situations...where someone from the mental health field wasn't.  The observation shared with others was that "the Chaplain treated me like a person to be assisted and not a patient to be analyzed."


Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Damron

Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2016, 04:40:07 AM


At any rate, Damron, I think this level of counseling/therapy for cadets is NOT something CAP should be dealing with. with cadets and especially in encampment settings. I think you and I might agree on that? Then, perhaps we might agree that chaplains (and HSOs, and all officers) should know their limitations?


Yes, my fear is CAP doesn't appreciate these limitations as they scramble to find roles for Chaplains in a changing environment.

Despite my harsh words, I do see a place for chaplains in CAP.  Actually, I see several places.  CAP has really done a disservice to its chaplains, forcing them to accept a secular role they are unprepared for and manage secular programs like CDI that they may have no interest in.

CISM:
Chaplains should complement the CISM mission.  There are those that find comfort in their faith and it makes sense to let chaplains be chaplains when it is appropriate.

Character Development:
CD is a secular program and chaplains should be able participate in the program.  It shouldn't be run by the chaplaincy.  They should be subordinate to wing or group CD officers that aren't necessarily chaplains.

Observance:
At multi-day events, let chaplains perform a service.  Don't pressure members to participate. 

Volunteer Service:
Chaplaincy should be secondary.  We need more drivers, not chaplains. We need more encampment and NCSA staff, not chaplains.  Every unit has available duty assignments that can be filled by chaplains. 

Chaplains should be called to serve, not necessarily or exclusively as chaplains.

Chappie

#85
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 06:46:50 AM
Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2016, 04:40:07 AM


At any rate, Damron, I think this level of counseling/therapy for cadets is NOT something CAP should be dealing with. with cadets and especially in encampment settings. I think you and I might agree on that? Then, perhaps we might agree that chaplains (and HSOs, and all officers) should know their limitations?


<snip>

Yes, my fear is CAP doesn't appreciate these limitations as they scramble to find roles for Chaplains in a changing environment.

Despite my harsh words, I do see a place for chaplains in CAP.  Actually, I see several places.  CAP has really done a disservice to its chaplains, forcing them to accept a secular role they are unprepared for and manage secular programs like CDI that they may have no interest in.


<snip>

Character Development:
CD is a secular program and chaplains should be able participate in the program.  It shouldn't be run by the chaplaincy.  They should be subordinate to wing or group CD officers that aren't necessarily chaplains.

<snip>

Observance:
At multi-day events, let chaplains perform a service.  Don't pressure members to participate. 

Volunteer Service:
Chaplaincy should be secondary.  We need more drivers, not chaplains. We need more encampment and NCSA staff, not chaplains.  Every unit has available duty assignments that can be filled by chaplains. 

Chaplains should be called to serve, not necessarily or exclusively as chaplains.

Regarding Character Development....

Just a historical note regarding the CAP Chaplain Corps...the Moral Leadership/Character Development program was established by the Chaplain Corps: In 1972 "Values for Living," Part 1, was first published.  In 1974, Air Reserve Personnel Center assigned five reserve chaplains to the National Chaplain's office to write the "Values for Living" curriculum.  The Freedom Foundation, Valley Forge, PA, awarded their 1974 Honor Award to CAP for its "Values for Living" moral leadership curriculum and its ministry to youth.  In these early years, the push was on to relate to youth on a new and expanded level.  The support for Christian Encounter Conferences was dwindling and only two were being held.  It was now suggested that Regional Chaplain Conferences take place where there would be Ministry to Youth Labs held.   You have to wonder what they were all trying as they were sweeping aside the practices of yesterday and reaching out to the "Now World" with "Now Chaplains".  By the end of the decade; "Values for Living" was in its 8th edition of publication."

Source: http://capchaplain.com/history-cap-chaplain-corps/

Observance....In my years of CAP experience....services are made available, they are optional.  I have never seen or heard of any of the chaplains in the wing/region where I serve pressure attendance.

Volunteer service...again from my experiences (and the Form 34s/'After-action Reports" that are submitted), CAP Chaplains have driven vans for Encampments and other cadet activities, they do the food runs for meals at a SARX, they present classes at various training or activities for cadets and seniors (Cadet Program Conferences, SLS, CLC,RSC,  UCC, the list can go on(), several of our chaplains are pilots and provide O-rides, Chaplains have served at NSC as staff members in roles as Deputy Director, Seminar advisors, Protocol Officers, Public Affairs, and of course - Chaplain, Chaplains have designed web-sites for local squadrons and wings, they have served as safety officers...taught AE and Leadership lessons, participate at airshows -- basically, you can find Chaplains in all sorts of service roles that goes beyond just wearing a cross, a set of tablets, a prayer wheel, etc.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Damron

So, you don't think "Values for Living" represents a shift to a secular approach?   The fact that it was designed by chaplains doesn't negate that.

Of course, most chaplains perform multiple functions.  For that I am thankful.

Chappie

Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 07:31:38 AM
So, you don't think "Values for Living" represents a shift to a secular approach?   The fact that it was designed by chaplains doesn't negate that.

Of course, most chaplains perform multiple functions.  For that I am thankful.

From the very beginning of the program, you will find the instruction that ML/CD was not a religious class....that it was to be a cadet-driven program with lessons facilitated by the Chaplain, then later the MLO/CDI.  Read the publications dating back to the '70s.  It has always had the secular and not a religious bent.  I just found the comment that "the chaplain should be able to participate in the program" somewhat amusing since it was the Chaplain Corps that established it in the first place ;)

My listing of items that chaplains perform on a regular basis was to the assertion that "we need more <fill in the blank>, not chaplains" and that "Chaplains should be called to serve, not necessarily or exclusively as chaplains". 


Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Damron

Quote from: Chappie on December 11, 2016, 07:45:15 AM
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 07:31:38 AM
So, you don't think "Values for Living" represents a shift to a secular approach?   The fact that it was designed by chaplains doesn't negate that.

Of course, most chaplains perform multiple functions.  For that I am thankful.

From the very beginning of the program, you will find the instruction that ML/CD was not a religious class....that it was to be a cadet-driven program with lessons facilitated by the Chaplain, then later the MLO/CDI.  It has always had the secular and not a religious bent.  I just found the comment that "the chaplain should be able to participate in the program" somewhat amusing since it was the Chaplain Corps that established it in the first place ;)

My listing of items that chaplains perform on a regular basis was to the assertion that "we need more <fill in the blank>, not chaplains" and that "Chaplains should be called to serve, not necessarily or exclusively as chaplains".

I understand the history, but why should the CD/CDI program be administered by chaplains? 




Chappie

Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 07:50:35 AM
Quote from: Chappie on December 11, 2016, 07:45:15 AM
Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 07:31:38 AM
So, you don't think "Values for Living" represents a shift to a secular approach?   The fact that it was designed by chaplains doesn't negate that.

Of course, most chaplains perform multiple functions.  For that I am thankful.

From the very beginning of the program, you will find the instruction that ML/CD was not a religious class....that it was to be a cadet-driven program with lessons facilitated by the Chaplain, then later the MLO/CDI.  It has always had the secular and not a religious bent.  I just found the comment that "the chaplain should be able to participate in the program" somewhat amusing since it was the Chaplain Corps that established it in the first place ;)

My listing of items that chaplains perform on a regular basis was to the assertion that "we need more <fill in the blank>, not chaplains" and that "Chaplains should be called to serve, not necessarily or exclusively as chaplains".

I understand the history, but why should the CD/CDI program be administered by chaplains?

Cadet Programs has a AE component --- who is the OPR for AE??? 
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Damron

I'm running out of steam. I think that chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies.  Beyond that, I'm not saying that chaplains are unqualified to manage the CD/CDI program, I'm asking why they are uniquely and exclusively qualified. 

Why should an expert on Bible trivia be exclusively qualified to run the CD/CDI program?







Alaric

Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 09:28:23 AM
I'm running out of steam. I think that chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies.  Beyond that, I'm not saying that chaplains are unqualified to manage the CD/CDI program, I'm asking why they are uniquely and exclusively qualified. 

Why should an expert on Bible trivia be exclusively qualified to run the CD/CDI program?

Wow "an expert on Bible trivia" kind of condescending of a Chaplain's education and training

Storm Chaser

#92
I have no issues with the Chaplain Corps or their program. I've been fortunate enough to have met and worked with some fantastic chaplains over the years.

I do have issues with the CDI appointment process and even question the need for a special appointment at all. The requirements for CDI appointment are so low right now that almost anyone could be appointed one. Yet, once appointed they're set apart from the rest of the membership. Whether they continue to function as a CDI in a squadron or not (a duty assignment designated by the commander, not the chaplain), they keep the "credentials" of CDI. Why? It's not like they underwent special training for that status. And if a unit has more qualified and suitable members to lead Character Development discussions, they can't unless they undergo the appointment process. If they do't wish to undergo the process or be part of the Chaplain Corps, then a valuable Character Development resource is lost. That just doesn't make much sense to me.

CORRECTION: The CDI duty assignment cannot be made or remove by a commander. If the member is no longer active or suitable, the commander must go through the chain to get that assignment removed.

KASSRCrashResearch

Quote from: Chappie on December 08, 2016, 09:12:11 PM
And on that note, we differ.  CAP Chaplains have a place and a role in this organization. 

Even as an atheist who has disagreed with Chappie on a couple of things in the past, I agree completely with this statement.  In fact, the disaster support organization that constitutes my day job is developing a volunteer chaplain corps because I told the board of directors that it needs to be a thing.  Even though the job- minus the interactions with religious folks- in many ways actually is closer to what most would imagine a social worker doing, I would much rather use clergy because most social workers are much harder to work with.  Plus, just because I don't have faith myself does not mean that the people I am accountable to (the folks who work for me) and the people we serve also lack faith.  My job is to provide means to take care of them so they can do their jobs.  This is one aspect of that I believe in wholeheartedly.

If a chaplaincy is set up and managed right, the fact that chaplains (generally) have theistic beliefs is pretty superfluous.  They are technically supposed to be a moral support and general resource for folks of all beliefs. As an example, one of the people I go to after bad calls is an Episcopal priest because I respect his opinion and know his heart is in the right place.  Oddly enough, he's actually the guy who officiated my marriage to my first wife.  LOL  To this day if he called saying he needed a kidney, I would cut it out of my own back for him.   Then again, I feel the same way about my ex-wife as well....

Now during my time in emergency services (not as in CAP ES) and the military did I run into heavy handed chaplains who abused their position to proselytize?  You bet because there are jerks in any population of sufficient size.  But a few bad apples don't spoil the barrel.  There are far more that I met who I think made me a better person even if I find it rather quaint that an otherwise intelligent person believes in an invisible dude in the sky.  Of course, my attitude is also that I don't care what someone believes so long as it drives them to do good things.

Quote from: DamronI'm running out of steam. I think that chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies.

My one minor gripe with the CAP chaplaincy is the resistance to switching to a more scientifically grounded approach to stress related disorder prevention and in that one narrow aspect of the field, I agree with you.  However, it's a very low frequency matter that really doesn't matter much so it's not worth the squabbling in a setting that can do nothing to improve the situation..

However, I take some degree of affront at your characterization of chaplains as "bible trivia experts".  Congratulations on taking someone who probably has a substantial amount of intellectual prowess in a much broader sense than your average person and treating them like some form of mental midget.  I would say at very least, that as a professional and a colleague you owe Chappie and his colleagues a sincere apology for that statement.
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.

Chappie

Quote from: Damron on December 11, 2016, 09:28:23 AM
I'm running out of steam. I think that chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies.  Beyond that, I'm not saying that chaplains are unqualified to manage the CD/CDI program, I'm asking why they are uniquely and exclusively qualified. 

Why should an expert on Bible trivia be exclusively qualified to run the CD/CDI program?

Regarding your assertion that "chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies", I would encourage you to read Chapters 2 and 3 of the 221A --  Chapter 3, lists the Five Core Processes of the CAP Chaplain Corps which  form the basic competencies (lest the 9 plagues of Biblical proportion from Exodus are unleashed - a bit of Biblical trivia reference...LOL). I would submit that chaplains are qualified to and actually perform those Core Processes.   

Also keep in mind, the great amount of time and energy of a pastor/chaplain is not spent in an ivory tower contemplating or studying....rather it is interacting with people of all ages confronting issues of "real life" -- this week alone I have dealt with  (not CAP related) a grieving family who lost a loved one, a family with a the husband/father who went through cancer surgery, problem solving/personnel issues (both at work and CAP -- administrative work), communication (writing publications, emails, and of course - participating in this thread), no counseling this week -- however there were a couple of sessions, last week. 

As for the question of running the CD/CDI program....it's the OPR.   This has been a topic of discussion for as long as I can remember.  Many minds and voices have spent time considering this over the past 20 years....changes (some significant) have been made within the program...but not the OPR.  The program involves administration, personnel, curriculum, etc. which Chaplains are familiar with as well.   The local pastor is largely a CEO/COO of a business...and needs to have a certain degree of experience in those areas (as well as budget)....they oversee various programs and staff.  Like other members of CAP, they bring to the table various talents, skill sets, and life experiences which qualify them to oversee various operations.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Eclipse

#95
Two major fallacies above, the former of which you keep referencing.

Not all CAP Chaplains pursue the specialty track, I would hazard many have never even opened it, and the appointment is
based wholly on external education and ecclesiastical endorsement.  Assuming they have, the 5 Core processes are not unique to a
Chaplain, (other then the religious aspect)nor do I see how a member of clergy, per se, has any special force powers in those regards.
That's a core part of the problem with the assumption of clergy as "special" - if you recognize a higher power, or the higher power they do,
then the logic is better.

If you don't recognize a higher, or the higher, then they are no more or less qualified, per se, then anyone else with a similar
level of education and general life or business experience.

As to the latter, while many CAP Chaplains are pastors, certainly there are plenty to who are not, so unless the vetting includes some
leadership time within the respective faith, that assumption should not be made.

And the point made earlier about the "secondary chain of command" is correct - a unit CC cannot appoint or remove a Chaplain
without approval of higher HQ, unlike any other staff position - that's clearly a secondary chain, and one which wields it's power
on a regular basis.

BITD I had a Chaplain on my roster who had not attended a meeting in several years, but because he, or someone (as it turns out
it was likely "someone") was submitting empty Form 34's I could not remove this person as my unit's Chaplain of record.

"That Others May Zoom"

Chappie

Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 11, 2016, 02:28:08 PM
I have no issues with the Chaplain Corps or their program. I've been fortunate enough to have met and worked with some fantastic chaplains over the years.

I do have issues with the CDI appointment process and even question the need for a special appointment at all. The requirements for CDI appointment are so low right now that almost anyone could be appointed one. Yet, once appointed they're set apart from the rest of the membership. Whether they continue to function as a CDI in a squadron or not (a duty assignment designated by the commander, not the chaplain), they keep the "credentials" of CDI. Why? It's not like they underwent special training for that status. And if a unit has more qualified and suitable members to lead Character Development discussions, they can't unless they undergo the appointment process. If they do't wish to undergo the process or be part of the Chaplain Corps, then a valuable Character Development resource is lost. That just doesn't make much sense to me.

CORRECTION: The CDI duty assignment cannot be made or remove by a commander. If the member is no longer active or suitable, the commander must go through the chain to get that assignment removed.

Stormchaser -- thanks for the words of affirmation and encouragement.  It is one of my greatest joys and privileges to serve the members of CAP and serve with dedicated/committed fellow volunteer professionals, like yourself  (and others that I have met through this forum).

My response is framed from the perspective who has been in Senior Leadership of the Chaplain Corps since 2001 -- and has been part of discussions and decisions within the Chaplain Corps -- and have the scars to smiles to show for it. 

Regarding the CDI appointment requirements....for years, the question/concern raised by members of CAP (as well as many of us in Senior Leadership of the Chaplain Corps) was basically that Character Development is a required component of cadet training. Chaplains and MLOs/CDIs are required to facilitate these sessions.  We have squadrons that have neither a chaplain or CDI to meet this requirement.  Recruiting Chaplains is difficult.  And the requirements for a MLO/CDI appointment....if CD isn't a religious activity, why is a letter of recommendation necessary from a pastor/priest/bishop/rabbi/iman???? -- and 60 hours of education from an accredited school (no standard of academic discipline required that had anything to do with the responsibilities of facilitating CD).

So at the urging of many "nice old guys" (LOL) --and under the outstanding leadership of the current Chief, it was discussed and decided that instead of having requirements that were restrictive (based again on the concerns/questions from commanders/members/yes, even chaplains), it was felt that the  Chaplain Corps leadership step up to the plate and do something bold that would meet the need.  So it started with the letter of recommendation...no longer a letter of religious endorsement.  Then seeing that Cadet Programs were requiring two graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron...we determined that the "artificial" academic requirement be replaced with a standardized requirement: completion of TLC (Basic) and Basic Instructor Course (CAP).  The thinking...if a squadron commander approves/presents a qualified person, we will get them appointed.  (And as mentioned in a previous post, since 2015 there has been a dramatic increase in CDI appointments). A substantial specialty training guide has been developed for CDIs -- by CDIs released in the past year (the prior guide was published 4 years after the MLO/CDI position was established in 1995).

As for the appointment/assignment...like other specialty tracks, I have not heard of someone's rating in AE, History, Professional Development, et al being revoked.  You are "spot on" about the appointment of a CDI/Chaplain...it is difficult to remove. A member of the Chaplain Corps can resign their appointment...seen that occur.  A member of the Chaplain Corps can be 2B'd....seen that occur. An application to the Chaplain Corps as a Chaplain or CDI has been denied by a squadron commander, wing chaplain, or wing commander has occurred.  The duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

On a side note: the appointment of CDI/Chaplain play an important role in the online module of reporting the CD session.

In my dealings as a Wing/Region Chaplain I have worked with Squadron and Wing leadership to resolve these kind of issues. A Squadron Commander controls the Personnel Authorization for their respective units. If a CDI or Chaplain isn't performing their responsibilities or being a "pain in the keaster", the Commander does not need to keep them on the PA. 

Bottom line: Chaplains (and CDIs) serve the commander at every level.  I have worked with command staff in the past and present to resolve the issues regarding the "assignment".  The process of the Form 2A is the same for a CDI/Chaplain as it is for any another duty assignment.

Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Eclipse

#97
Quote from: Chappie on December 11, 2016, 06:14:05 PMThe duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

This is incorrect - a Unit Chaplain cannot be removed by anyone lower then the Wing Chaplain.

Edit: Hmm, I just checked the duty Assignment module and there is a "delete" button there.  I'm not
about to test the theory by de-assigning my Chaplin, I have enough problems, but I still
believe this to be the case.  It certainly was the last time I had the issue, which admittedly was a number
of years ago.

There is still the red "Chaplain" in the personnel area, which obviously denotes special status.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Chappie on December 11, 2016, 06:14:05 PM
Regarding the CDI appointment requirements....for years, the question/concern raised by members of CAP (as well as many of us in Senior Leadership of the Chaplain Corps) was basically that Character Development is a required component of cadet training. Chaplains and MLOs/CDIs are required to facilitate these sessions. We have squadrons that have neither a chaplain or CDI to meet this requirement.  Recruiting Chaplains is difficult.  And the requirements for a MLO/CDI appointment....if CD isn't a religious activity, why is a letter of recommendation necessary from a pastor/priest/bishop/rabbi/iman???? -- and 60 hours of education from an accredited school (no standard of academic discipline required that had anything to do with the responsibilities of facilitating CD).

Years?  Prior to the current state, there was no mandate of an MLO / CDI facilitating the discussion, in fact, 52-16 specifically indicated that
a commander may appoint anyone to facilitate the discussion.  Thus, there was no "discussion" on this below perhaps wing.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9188.msg165424#msg165424

In fact, I would say during that period, the OPR was clearly CP, not the Chaplaincy.  That was also during a time the MLO still had to be a member
of a church.

I don't have the time to find the exact dates, but it appears to be since only about 2010 or so, which is technically years,
but not in the way insinuated. 

The issue with manpower constraints regarding CD sessions is a pretty recent phenomena, and isn't even universally recognized.
For the typical reasons CAP has issues, I can assure you there are plenty of units unaware of the issue.

Side note:  Gotta love the national website - still has versions of documents that refer to MLO, including a page on how to become one.
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/clergy_faq/?&show=faq&faqID=148


"That Others May Zoom"

Damron

#99
Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on December 11, 2016, 03:12:42 PM

However, I take some degree of affront at your characterization of chaplains as "bible trivia experts".  Congratulations on taking someone who probably has a substantial amount of intellectual prowess in a much broader sense than your average person and treating them like some form of mental midget.  I would say at very least, that as a professional and a colleague you owe Chappie and his colleagues a sincere apology for that statement.

I said nothing about anyone's intellect.

As far as education goes, many Christian colleges and schools of divinity have put together a pretty solid liberal arts education, that's a somewhat recent phenomenon. Yet, many religious colleges have no secular accreditation and some are parodies of higher education. So, my quip about (Christian) chaplains being experts at Bible trivia was a bit flippant.   Some are certainly well educated by anyone's measure.

Lets not be afraid to question anything in CAP that doesn't make sense.  Don't be afraid to question the future role of the Chaplaincy in CAP.