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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?
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Author Topic: Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?  (Read 1702 times)
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,993

« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 02:51:56 PM »

You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

Quote
52-16 predates the hesitance of 60-20 and will undoubtedly be corrected in the next revision.

Yes it does and yes it probably will be changed. But that's the future, and we only go out of the time-space continuum when necessary or referred specificly (whatever that word is).
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2016, 02:55:22 PM »

You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

A knowledgeable CP staffer would say "Yes - 52-16 is out of date, CAP has a specific pamphlet now, use that..."
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,993

« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2016, 03:02:52 PM »

You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

A knowledgeable CP staffer would say "Yes - 52-16 is out of date, CAP has a specific pamphlet now, use that..."

A knowledgeable CP staffer would also say, "This new thing is based almost entirely on this old thing with just a few new examples and very special circumstances addressed. So since we already have the old thing, let's just use it until we come across a situation that requires us to use the new thing."
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2016, 04:01:05 PM »

OK, that's not a thing.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 177

« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2016, 07:46:14 PM »

      Hi, so I just took my C/T/Sgt. drill test where I had to drill a flight in marching techniques. After the test was over I didn't pass due to not keeping the element leaders in front of the column while marching the whole time. I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me tips on how to keep them in front. Thanks!

Motivator,

   Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt. The front of the formation it towards your element leaders. The test you took was to evaluated you on your ability to lead a flight and knowledge about it. You can fail the drill test unless you have fail 5 movement or criterias. Depend on the test (more can be missed), however the test you took doesn't evaluate that, only evaluate the ability for you to call the command on the proper foot or follow on commands. 
     The only way you can keep the flight marching foward is using all the commands given to you. I said it again if you give the command "to the rear" then the only command you can provide while marching backwards is "to the rear" to change the direction of your flight to move forward then any command after that. If you give the command right/left flank then give another command to place them facing forward.  Towards the guide.
    I have teach my cadets that keeping the flights marching foward is the only way and the other commands are there to move the flight around obstacles. Flanks are to march sideways and change the direction of marching to the flanks however, you can't do to the rear March while you marching it to the sides, you can stop the flight by given halt or March time. All the time keep yourself to the left of the formation about 2/3 of it. Change the direction of the formation by using column right/left or obliques.
    Just practice to use all the commands available to you disposal and drive the bus foward next time. Good luck. If you going to teach drill you have to know all about it and rules. As cadet you can't take everything for granted you don't know if your seniors are teaching you the right thing. In CAP we have lots of people saying and doing things because they were taught that way and never bother to find out if it was right or wrong. Read the manuals inform yourself and as cadet become familiar with the 52-16, drill manual and 39-1, 3. ..  Tip. Use a cadet with a guidon or stick to give you a better understanding of the foward of the formation

AFMAN 36-2203 page 32, par. 4.2.6. Normally, the flight is marched with the element leaders and the guide at the head of the column.

V/R
Carlos A
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 07:53:35 PM by LATORRECA » Logged
coudano
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Posts: 1,113

« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2016, 08:48:13 PM »

Motivator,
Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt.

to the fear???



Since you are being technical, please provide a cite from any publication anywhere that justifies the 'technical' assertion you just made.
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LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 177

« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2016, 02:34:03 AM »

Motivator,
Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt.

to the fear???



Since you are being technical, please provide a cite from any publication anywhere that justifies the 'technical' assertion you just made.

Apologize I meant to said "to the rear" good catch.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2016, 02:49:02 PM »

<snip>AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Don't be so quick to point to AFMAN 36-2203 as the end-all, be-all source document.

15+ years ago, one our staff guys from CadetStuff called the OPR at Lackland and pointed out the typographical error in para 3.18. 

They went "Whoa, we totally missed this in the last re-write. We'll get it fixed for the next edition!"

Its still wrong, after at least two iterations of the manual.

Not surprising.  Outside of BMT and tech school there is no marching in the Air Force unless you are a member of the Honor Guard or you somehow get picked to march in a parade.  In my 30 years in the Air Force I have never had to march except when I was in the Honor Guard.

Drill is at best an afterthought for the Air Force.
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Brad
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: MER-SC-020

« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2016, 10:23:17 AM »

I just checked the Achievement 4 C/TSgt test, as can be found here: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_746403DBED6F4.pdf on page 9. (Not a secured item) and based off my going over the listed sequence in my head, the element(s) should start and end in line formation, not column formation, so the element leader should be on the formation's right, your left.

If the grader dinged you for "not keeping the element leaders in front of the formation"  when the only marching commands are - using the tested Cadet facing the formation in line normally as a starting reference - a forward march when the formation is in line after an about face (they're marching away from you in line), a left flank (now they're marching forward in column), a right flank (now they're marching in line away from you again), and finally a to the rear (now they're marching towards you in line), then that is definitely a fault on the tester.

1.) The test setup specifically calls for a single element of 2 cadets at minimum. Not a flight.

2.) How is it possible to keep the element leader(s) in front of the formation at all times and still execute the listed sequence? Impossible, period. It sounds to me like someone is misreading something somewhere in a drill manual about keeping element leaders in the front and applying that instruction somewhere to a condition where common sense says no. "Oh, you're marching in line? Well of course the element leaders are not suddenly going to break ranks and trot out to in front of the line formation!"

3.) These are the graded items of the test:

1. Knowledge
Calls commands on the correct foot (when the foot
corresponding to the direction of movement strikes the
ground)
2. Interval
Calls commands of execution two steps after calling the
preparatory commands
3. Voice
Calls commands loud enough for the element to hear
them
Calls commands clear enough for the element to
understand them
4. Bearing
Calls commands decisively, with snap and a sense of “Go!”
Maintains good military bearing
5. Overall Leadership
Calls cadence or halts and restarts the element, if the
cadets fall out of step or lose alignment
Completes all assigned commands


I certainly don't see anything on that list about where the element leader(s) is/are, aside from maybe the alignment item, but that's a big stretch.

Seriously, follow up - respectfully - with your Cadet chain of command, and possibly your Senior leadership too if needed, you got a bad deal.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 10:33:52 AM by Brad » Logged
Brad Lee
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Assistant Director of Communications
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