Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 19, 2017, 12:03:44 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?  (Read 1730 times)
CaptainQantas
Newbie

Posts: 4

« on: November 20, 2016, 04:26:23 PM »

      Hi, so I just took my C/T/Sgt. drill test where I had to drill a flight in marching techniques. After the test was over I didn't pass due to not keeping the element leaders in front of the column while marching the whole time. I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me tips on how to keep them in front. Thanks!
Logged
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2016, 04:45:33 PM »

Well, depending on the command, the Element leaders won't be in the front, such as a right flank or left flank.  I checked the Tests, and keeping the Element Leaders in the front is not a criteria graded.  Ask them, politely where that criteria is located on the test.  [Hint: it's not there]
Logged
<redacted>

GRW 3340
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2016, 04:51:27 PM »

I should also note that for the TSgt drill test, the only thing that they should be grading you on is how you call the commands, not the execution of the commands.  Perhaps your evaluator needs a re-read of CAPT 78-2.
Logged
<redacted>

GRW 3340
CaptainQantas
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2016, 04:55:23 PM »

Ok thank you! Something did seem a little off during the test.
Logged
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2016, 04:57:44 PM »

One last thing. . . .for now. . .  one error is not enough to fail any CAP Test.
Logged
<redacted>

GRW 3340
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 05:02:48 PM »

+1 on RL's points - Ach 4 specifically indicates that non-proficient cadets should be used and I don't see anything about
Element leader position, it's call about the calls.

You might take page 9 of this: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_0D0A619D59581.pdf
and have a respectful conversation with the senior member who scored the test to insure the expectations
are understood by all parties.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,113

« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2016, 06:08:36 PM »

So was this the test to earn C/TSgt (the achievement 4 test)
Or was it the test you took AS a C/TSgt (the achievement 5 test)

Seems like it could go either way...

Achievement 4 test (the way it's written) has cadets take off in inverted line
(from line formation, about face, forward march)
...just one of the many lovely little intricacies of the drill tests...  that have been pointed out, but not corrected, over the years...

...why would you have them dress right dress immediately after falling in...   doesn't fall in imply dress right dress (?)



There is no prohibition in the test about adding a command, but there's no requirement either.



The Achievement 5 test ends an open ranks / close ranks (in line formation)
And then asks the cadet to do a column of files...
which would require the cadet to insert a "Right FACE" first, since you don't do a column of files from line.


So that said,

Quote from: cap 60-20 and afman 36-2203 infact have written
4.2.6. Normally, the flight is marched with the element leaders and the guide at the head of
the column.


So yeah, that's "normal"

Of course we are "testing" here, so that's a little abnormal...

In the case of the achievement 4 test, it's already not "normal" because you are supposed to be drilling an element, not a flight.
--however, we are doing flanks here, which by definition are quick changes and by definition will cause your element leader[strike]s[/strike] to no longer be at the head of his element.


Normal might apply more to the achievement 5 test, but the commands in that test keep things aligned properly right up until the end when it asks for a column move while in line formation.
Logged
calebtornado12
Recruit

Posts: 49
Unit: RMR-ID-073

« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 05:01:20 PM »

So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 05:11:33 PM by calebtornado12 » Logged
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2016, 05:44:51 PM »

So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.
Logged
calebtornado12
Recruit

Posts: 49
Unit: RMR-ID-073

« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2016, 08:48:38 PM »

So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20
Logged
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 09:43:49 AM »

So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20

Have you looked at CAPP 60-20?  What areas are lacking?

CAPP 60-20 is now the CAP standard for D&C.  If you look at any other document first then you may be going down the wrong path.
Logged
calebtornado12
Recruit

Posts: 49
Unit: RMR-ID-073

« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 12:31:59 PM »

So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

CAPP 60-20 was literally written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently   

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20

Have you looked at CAPP 60-20?  What areas are lacking?

CAPP 60-20 is now the CAP standard for D&C.  If you look at any other document first then you may be going down the wrong path.


CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.
Logged
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...
calebtornado12
Recruit

Posts: 49
Unit: RMR-ID-073

« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 12:33:15 PM »

And this is a stupid thing to be arguing about! CaptainQantas, use both of these resources to help you out, one could help you in a place that other other may not be able to help you.
Logged
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 12:43:35 PM »

CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except for those vary rare cases where reference to the AFMAN is indicated, your best tactic
is to leave it at home and not mention it anymore, otherwise you risk confusing those in your charge,
or being confused yourself.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

calebtornado12
Recruit

Posts: 49
Unit: RMR-ID-073

« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 12:44:39 PM »

CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except for those vary rare cases where reference to the AFMAN is indicated, your best tactic
is to leave it at home and not mention it anymore, otherwise you risk confusing those in your charge,
or being confused yourself.

Will do, thank you sir. Case closed
Logged
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,110

« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 01:18:11 PM »

CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC.

I don't want to distract from the good advice being given here, but since the pamphlet was written and published on my watch, I did want to point out that the above is not correct.  The Pamphlet was written entirely by highly experienced CAP members who are Cadet Programs officers with special expertise in drill and ceremonies. 

Sorry for the tangent, but I felt I needed to make the correction.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 01:50:20 PM »

CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC.

I don't want to distract from the good advice being given here, but since the pamphlet was written and published on my watch, I did want to point out that the above is not correct.  The Pamphlet was written entirely by highly experienced CAP members who are Cadet Programs officers with special expertise in drill and ceremonies. 

Sorry for the tangent, but I felt I needed to make the correction.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

And as one of the authors of this document, I have over 30 years of experience with drill and color guards in the Air Force (including many years of Honor Guard).  I have also coached Region winning drill teams.  The other authors were also very knowledgeable and experienced.  I'm not sure where this cadet got his information from but it is very incorrect.

If something is lacking in CAPP 60-20, let us know and we can fix it.  Just throwing out blanket statements doesn't help anything.
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,613
Unit: of issue

« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 02:00:58 PM »

<snip>AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Don't be so quick to point to AFMAN 36-2203 as the end-all, be-all source document.

15+ years ago, one our staff guys from CadetStuff called the OPR at Lackland and pointed out the typographical error in para 3.18. 

They went "Whoa, we totally missed this in the last re-write. We'll get it fixed for the next edition!"

Its still wrong, after at least two iterations of the manual.
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,994

« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 02:20:49 PM »

CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except it isn't the only source from a CAP perspective. It is just a guide which draws upon various other publications, including AFMAN 36-2203. So, based on that, and the fact that 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203, I would say that it is entirely proper to use the AFMAN first and the CAPP second.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 02:43:48 PM »

Except it isn't the only source from a CAP perspective. It is just a guide which draws upon various other publications, including AFMAN 36-2203. So, based on that, and the fact that 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203, I would say that it is entirely proper to use the AFMAN first and the CAPP second.

AFMAN first?  No.  That is incorrect.  It's not even a CAP pub.

You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

In this case, there are a couple of instances involving larger-scale activities such as CoC with parades where the AFMAN is referred to
only because CAP does them so rarely.

Otherwise CAPP 60-20 should be the first and only.

52-16 predates the hesitance of 60-20 and will undoubtedly be corrected in the next revision.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.348 seconds with 20 queries.