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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: E.S. Specific Vehicles
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cpyahoo
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: SER-TN-170

« on: November 17, 2016, 12:05:26 PM »

Been quite some time since I've been on here.  Trying to spark some discussion and see what some of your thoughts are on this.  Back in the 1980s, CAP had vehicles dedicated for emergency services.  We had utility trucks and 4x4s specifically for ground SAR.  Three years ago, I fired an inquiry off to National Headquarters asking why we still don't do that?  Sure, the vans are an OK general purpose vehicle, but...  Do you folks think we need purpose-specific vehicles for GSAR? 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 12:14:45 PM »

No.
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Bayareaflyer 44
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: PCR-CA-096

« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 02:15:06 PM »

CAWG has many 4x4 Ford Expeditions and F250s.  They are extremely well equipped with a full compliment of radios.  Excellent for GSAR.
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Earhart #2546
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THRAWN
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 04:36:30 PM »

Nope.
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Strup
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arajca
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Posts: 4,086

« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 07:27:00 PM »

One of the issues with ES specific vehicles is units were refusing to use them for anything else. "We can't use our crew cab truck to take 4 cadet to O-flights as we may get called out to a mission." CAP vehicles need to be able to support ALL missions, with the exception of a very few, i.e. Communications trucks and I can't think of anything else.

True, you're not going to take a van off road very far (dirt road to a trail head?), but there are very few time when CAP trucks would go off road to where vans couldn't go.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,584

« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 09:59:06 PM »

CAWG has many 4x4 Ford Expeditions and F250s.  They are extremely well equipped with a full compliment of radios.  Excellent for GSAR.

Define many.  The brought 4 of the F250s for use as Ground Team Vehicles.
Per the California Vehicle Code, you need a Class B Commercial Licence with a Passenger Endorsement  to operate any vehicle that is designed to carry more then ten people. i.e. 15 pax vans.

CAWG doesn't get 15 pax vans anymore since very few members are licensed to drive them.

The F250s were brought to replace some of the 15 pax vans that a few units were using for their Ground Teams.
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Bayareaflyer 44
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: PCR-CA-096

« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 11:49:02 PM »

CAWG has many 4x4 Ford Expeditions and F250s.  They are extremely well equipped with a full compliment of radios.  Excellent for GSAR.

Define many. 

5 F250s, 3 of which avail for GSAR.  9 Expedition/Excursion/Explorer 4x4s.  I know of several of these vehicles used off road in support of GSAR; both in exercise and actual.

CAWG has many 4x4 Ford Expeditions and F250s.  They are extremely well equipped with a full compliment of radios.  Excellent for GSAR.

Per the California Vehicle Code, you need a Class B Commercial Licence with a Passenger Endorsement  to operate any vehicle that is designed to carry more then ten people. i.e. 15 pax vans.

CAWG doesn't get 15 pax vans anymore since very few members are licensed to drive them.


Yep.
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Earhart #2546
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 12:40:47 AM »

No one is getting 15 PAX anymore, and the ones CAP had were supposed to have been reduced to 12
with removal of the last set of seats.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 781
Unit: GA-045/CC

« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 12:42:15 AM »

Cpyahoo,

You're going to get a predictable mix of responses here based on:

A, the variable experience of each member in states with and without rough or swampy terrain necessitating 4x4 capability,

B, the operational experience of each member in performing or managing ground ops

C, the increasing bias of some members towards (non ES) cadet activities as the number and type of ground ops activities decline, and as an increasing number of members believe that cadets should be limited in ES.


From my perspective (GBD, Georgia/SER AO), we still retain a fleet of vehicles which meets a balanced mix of personnel lift and rough country operational capability. My unit has a history of operating corporate 4x4s, the most recent including a new COV Expedition with satphone, winch, cop mount for the laptop, HF/VHF/ELT antennas, etc (now driven by the Wing/CC) and our current vehicle which is a COV 2014 Dodge six pack with pretty much the same but better cargo cap.

Since the 1960s, my unit has operated a string of predecessor/similar type USAF surplus 4x4 type vehicles. There are cautionary limits though: my unit for example requires training (initial and requal - formalized with our Wing LG, in fact) for our GTLs to safely employ them (particularly winch/recovery training, and learning/practicing how to air down/air up, to use spotters, and to measure departure angles and vehicle loading) and has an operational record of successfully using the full capability of this type vehicle. One surplus USAF ambulance was used by this unit in 1989 on a north GA “SAVE” mission in which an aircraft crash survivor was recovered from rough territory where EMS could not reach. (Let me emphasize that - for OUR area of operations, for OUR terrain, it is a mission need to complement state and local assets (or frankly, the lack thereof).

The ritual of winching and pushing stuck corporate 12 pax vans when sent off pavement on missions becomes a major detriment to deploying teams in the very terrain where we hunt - and find - missing aircraft when corporate aircraft are still weathered in (e.g. Scott Crossfield, a Navy T-39, etc. in the past decade in our area). Our CAPF 175 submittals have always included an attachment documenting in embarrassing pictures the struggling members trying to unstick vans during mountain SAREX/DREXs and actual missions (one good pic was from Katrina, circa 05).

Bottom line: a sensible balance is necessary depending on the specific terrain and mission quals for various areas. My unit is borrowing a 12 pax this weekend for a trip to visit NASA MSFC, and we're of course open to lend "our" vehicle to units which pass the driver training and want to take it into the field for effective training. One team, balanced capability, with sensible training and ORM guiding their employment.

V/r
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SarDragon
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Posts: 9,691
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 12:44:43 AM »

No one is getting 15 PAX anymore, and the ones CAP had were supposed to have been reduced to 12
with removal of the last set of seats.

Because of the wording of the CA law (designed to carry more then ten people), you still need the higher level license, whether the seat is installed or not.
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Dave Bowles
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,086

« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2016, 12:06:03 AM »

The van that CAP has been getting are DESIGNED for 12. There is no more 'remove' the rear seat. The vans are not equipped with them OR their mounting points.

This puts it over the 10 limit for CA.
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