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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Drones perform well in staged SAR operation
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Live2Learn
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« on: November 16, 2016, 02:10:53 PM »

http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/11/team-drones-pulls-staged-search-and-rescue-mission/133212/?oref=defenseone_today_nl  This looks like the beginning of the next generation of SAR and DR response.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 02:43:52 PM »

Interesting.  I'm wondering what the weather conditions were like, as compared to what can be expected for some of our other SAR conditions.
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GRW 3340
CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 04:53:58 PM »

This really could be the face of the next generation for effective SAR. But we will need longer flight time, these batteries drain very quickly.

And of course CAP will get bogged down trying to figure out the correct uniform to operate a drone >:D
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kcebnaes
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2016, 05:35:16 PM »

Oh my gosh. I was just joking with my wife about this! I was going to "suggest" that when operating a drone for CAP events(aerospace education, SAR?, etc.) that we should wear a flight suit, with the proper wings!  >:D
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Maj Sean Beck
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2016, 08:24:58 PM »

Do we want a flight suit with NOMEX? For when the controller short-circuits and smokes???

Who will propose a new badge? Wings with a drone in the middle? Can we have someone--anyone--post a design like someone posted a Coffee Mission Officer badge???
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 08:41:02 PM »

Gentlemen,  gentlemen,  this is the highest level of cutting edge technology. It must be full Mess Dress, in order to show the proper dignity and respect for the mission.  :angel: >:D
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 08:50:07 PM »


Show: CAP Drone Command Post

Not pictured: Mom making Hot Pockets.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Thonawit
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 08:51:35 PM »

With Mess Dress as the official Drone Pilot uniform, does that mean the accouterment  that is referred to as the "Dinner Plate" be replaced with a Satellite Dish?

Also there would be 2 more posistions needed;

Battery Tender - The person who installs the batteries in the drone and flight preps it.
Battery Handler - The person who removes the batteries in the drone and places them in the charger.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 01:37:50 AM »

This really could be the face of the next generation for effective SAR. But we will need longer flight time, these batteries drain very quickly.

And of course CAP will get bogged down trying to figure out the correct uniform to operate a drone >:D

Looks like Amazon isn't too hung up on the "proper uniform" or even patches.  See http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2017/01/amazon-drone-takes-on-slings-arrows-and-hackers/ for an interesting discussion of how they might protect the integrity of their aircraft. 

Unfortunately, I agree with the posters who (in good humor) poke fun at CAP's inability to move outside of its history.  I expect we're in an organization that will be a (very) late adopter of new technology.
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A.Member
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 02:26:25 AM »

Hmmmm.  Seems the cost of that operation was missing from the article.  The operating costs of a 172/182 are significantly less than any vehicle mentioned.  Any opening bids on the cost of that little SAR demo?

That's our value proposition....for now anyway.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
RRLE
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »

From the article:

Quote
The application also describes how a drone could be programmed to take avoiding action against an arrow or other low speed projectile launched by Ďan adversarial personí.

I think most "adversarial people" would attempt to take a drone down with a rifle, handgun or shotgun and not a bow and arrow. The former are not low speed projectiles. Is Amazon protecting against the wrong threat?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 09:19:13 AM »

What would autorotation acomplish for a drone?

If it ends going down in the middle of a city it would probably end going down in the middle of a street, causing an accident.

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THRAWN
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 10:18:30 AM »

Do we want a flight suit with NOMEX? For when the controller short-circuits and smokes???

Who will propose a new badge? Wings with a drone in the middle? Can we have someone--anyone--post a design like someone posted a Coffee Mission Officer badge???

The RM, LE and some commercial operators already do this. Not saying you NEED a bag to be a UAV operator....

There are already wings designed: www.dronepilotwings.com
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Strup
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2017, 02:10:56 PM »

What would autorotation acomplish for a drone?

If it ends going down in the middle of a city it would probably end going down in the middle of a street, causing an accident.

Most drones I've seen don't have the right rotor profiles to autorotate. They are too short, and have too little mass to work effectively.
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Dave Bowles
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2017, 03:37:32 PM »

I know. I was responding to the article that was posted in the link.

Any drone with four motors one in each corner would not autorotate.

I still state that autorotation would not do any good for market delivery drones. They would just land in places where the merchandise may be lost  because of an accident.


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Live2Learn
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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2017, 05:03:14 PM »

Maybe there's another issue Amazon will have to address:  Hijacking.  See:  http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tech-drones-idUSKBN14M180 for a very interesting discussion of anti-UAV technology startups, some of which might produce spoof 'n snatch tactics.  It could be interesting.  Walmart might sell drones to the "recreationist" and the anti-drone to everyone else. Some of the disabling anti-UAV technologies might raise Amazon's headaches with package snatching to an entirely new level.   Free enterprise at work!
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Starbux
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2017, 05:59:26 AM »

My thought is that drones will not replace manned light fixed wing in the CONUS.  I do see the technology such as MTS balls being attached to the fleet like the one that hangs on the Green Flag SP bird very useful for SAR.  I successfully found two targets one in OIF and the other in OEF with the MQ-1.  When I was a RAPO I was trying to facilitate this through my leadership in CAP-USAF.  The MTS system can change the way we do business because we would no longer need to do any high risk low altitude flying anymore.  The IR sensor can spot things that the eye may not pick up, especially for missions with lost hikers in the mountains in the winter time.  An IR ball would be able to pick up a heat signature of a live person very well against the freezing background.  It would also give us a night capability meaning in those crucial hours we maybe more likely to get a live rescue versus a recovery. 

For drones in CAP.  My thought is that they can be a useful tool to a ground team by using some of the COTS solutions.  There are systems like the DJI Inspire 1 XT which carry a FLIR camera.  Even though they do not fly far or long 20 minutes.   They do go out a few miles.  If you wanted to investigate something without hiking in terrain a few miles you can launch the drone go out and search the area and get a very good view.   Even some systems like this pocket foldable Mavic with just a normal video camera, you can get a 4K image at very high detail and possibly help in searching high rick areas.  So there is potential for various uses of this tech.  There are some large industrial solutions as well.  I think they have a potential use in some situations.  They wont be a replacement, but they can be a useful augment.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2017, 09:11:48 PM »

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

Who's going to buy the technology? Who's going to pay for and perform the maintenance? These are important questions to ask when considering new things. Look at the fiasco named ARCHER. Decent idea, but poorly conceived and eventually relegated to CAP's dustbin.
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Dave Bowles
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etodd
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2017, 12:13:43 AM »

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

Who's going to buy the technology? Who's going to pay for and perform the maintenance? These are important questions to ask when considering new things. Look at the fiasco named ARCHER. Decent idea, but poorly conceived and eventually relegated to CAP's dustbin.

I agree that small drones at this point may be best suited for ground search teams who have an approx location and can use a drone to search that area quicker. (Lots of variables here)

This may well be the time when 'member owned gear' will be more of a reality. You don't need a pilot who just flies a squadron drone a few times a year. A drone owner who flies weekly doing other things, even as a hobby, will be very familiar with his/her particular setup and do much better ... and be much safer. No doubt about it.

I'm a PPSEL and also have my Part 107 FAA Remote Pilot certification for small drones. I'm ready, and would bet CAP has many others as well.
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2017, 02:11:46 AM »

Anyone that thinks that drones will not have a big piece of the air SAR pie are kidding themselves. Look only at what Autel Robotics has in the pipe for this year alone. Member owned drones with FLIR capability, a 1+ mile range, and 25+ minutes of flight time for less than for less than $2K? Not to mention their VTOL Kestrel with a 60+ mile range.  Just think about having that tool at one's disposal. Imagine how many of those CAP could put out during a mission for the cost of one C172.

The future of this business belongs to UAVs. That's just a fact.
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Starbux
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2017, 05:56:32 AM »

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

Who's going to buy the technology? Who's going to pay for and perform the maintenance? These are important questions to ask when considering new things. Look at the fiasco named ARCHER. Decent idea, but poorly conceived and eventually relegated to CAP's dustbin.


I'm a PPSEL and also have my Part 107 FAA Remote Pilot certification for small drones. I'm ready, and would bet CAP has many others as well.

I have mine as well, I have been operating commercially under the Legacy 333 before the 107 for film and TV.   I have been asked to help stand up a program in my wing.  My conundrum is that I am commercial pilot working on MP.  I have no motivation to be tronching through the woods like my cadet days.  I m looking to try to put together a program to train people to get their 107 RPC.  This is something event Cadets could do since the min age is 16.  It would be good for PPSEL's that do not have the hours to qualify for MP. 

On the 107 thing I have been wondering if that is the appropriate method for CAP.  IMO I think CAP getting a public COA might be the better route.  Right now the one problem with the 107 is the clogged process to get ATC auths and various waivers.  But for now any Part 61 pilot who is current can get one through the FAAST website.  Its not that hard for anyone to get it the test way either.
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Starbux
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2017, 06:13:38 AM »

Anyone that thinks that drones will not have a big piece of the air SAR pie are kidding themselves. Look only at what Autel Robotics has in the pipe for this year alone. Member owned drones with FLIR capability, a 1+ mile range, and 25+ minutes of flight time for less than for less than $2K? Not to mention their VTOL Kestrel with a 60+ mile range.  Just think about having that tool at one's disposal. Imagine how many of those CAP could put out during a mission for the cost of one C172.

The future of this business belongs to UAVs. That's just a fact.

I think in the near future I can see the Autel and the Inspire XT being viable.  I am interested in how good the Autels FLIR will be compared to the Zenmuse XT camera.  I have flown both variants of the XT and there is a noticeable difference in resolving between the low and high res versions.  But the Autel is fairly compact it would not be much to field deploy one.  Even the DJI Mavic w/o flir the thing is the size of portable mirrorless camera for the most part.  There lots of options for member owned equipment that many may have. 

As for the 60 miles range thing.  That will take a while.  The FAA is pretty strict on how they are handling VLOS waivers.   In fact it almost impractical at the moment.  Two companies have one at the moment.  One is Precision Hawk and the other is BNSF.  Precision Hawks waiver requires a visual observer to be stationed at intervals through the entire flight path which sorta defeats the whole point of rapid deployability.  I think the FAA is really going to want a system with a robust sense and avoid ability to detect an aircraft's path and auto deviate.  Until then I think current method is the only one they will allow.  So it will probably be sometime after 2020 IMO.
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etodd
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2017, 06:49:26 PM »


 Imagine how many of those CAP could put out during a mission for the cost of one C172.


It'll still be both for a long time. If the pilot was VFR and no flight plan and no flight following, but the spouse knew the pilot was 'suppose to be flying to a city 400 miles away" .... its going to be manned planes flying that route at the start. If they can narrow it down to a much smaller area of high probability ... THEN bring in the small drones.

Yes, if CAP ever gets anything like a Predator, then the whole mission could be flown with 'a real drone'. But lets not hold our breath for that one. LOL
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