The Reaper Mission in Syracuse, NY

[etodd]

Well now that Maj. Gen. Joe Vazquez has visited the Mission and its all over the PUBLIC CAP website, including photos of members who worked Missions ... it should be ok for us to discuss it now?

Its never been secret, except at CAP Hdqs, as the general public in SYR was all excited to know the RPAs were coming to save the guard base from potentially shrinking or closing. It was always a big news event from the start. LOL

Here ya go:

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?natl_commander_visits_reaper_training_program_in_ny&show=news&newsID=22617

If you haven't volunteered for a mission yet, I highly recommend it. Mission pilots as well as Mission Observers needed.  Its a really fun week doing rewarding work.

[Eclipse]

Well now that Maj. Gen. Joe Vazquez has visited the Mission and its all over the PUBLIC CAP website, including photos of members who worked Missions ... it should be ok for us to discuss it now?

No, other then what is published.

No one ever sad it was a secret, nothing in CAP is a secret, but plenty is confidential or sensitive. Discussing "when and where's" is still a bad idea for any mission
when it is ongoing.

Maybe you don't understand this, but a lot of actionable intel for bad people isn't a FB posting that says "I'll be here on this day",
it's little pieces of info culled together over time.

Don't be that guy.

[SMWOG]

Never was a secret
ANG had press release since day one

[Hyperion]

Maybe you don't understand this, but a lot of actionable intel for bad people isn't a FB posting that says "I'll be here on this day",
it's little pieces of info culled together over time.

Don't be that guy.

How many examples can you give us, in the 70+ history of CAP after WWII, where CAP was targeted for terrorist activity / by "bad people"?

CAP is not some super-secret OPSEC organization; units proudly blast their meeting time, attendees, and locations on FB for new recruits along with their missions. It's CAP. We do public, transparent service as civilians.

Knock it off with the fear propaganda.

[abdsp51]

Maybe you don't understand this, but a lot of actionable intel for bad people isn't a FB posting that says "I'll be here on this day",
it's little pieces of info culled together over time.

Don't be that guy.

How many examples can you give us, in the 70+ history of CAP after WWII, where CAP was targeted for terrorist activity / by "bad people"?

CAP is not some super-secret OPSEC organization; units proudly blast their meeting time, attendees, and locations on FB for new recruits along with their missions. It's CAP. We do public, transparent service as civilians.

Knock it off with the fear propaganda.

Open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.  The Reaper missions are AF missions and not just CAP missions so hence there is an OPSEC and FOUO concern with this.  And guess what there is nothing stopping agents from utlizing a CAP meeting to scout an installation out for a strike.... 

Maybe you need some OPSEC refresher training if you even took it to begin with.

[Luis R. Ramos]

We are back to having some members paying lip service to our agreement with another organization.

Maybe this is the reason why some of us are not called out on missions. Because those we agreed to behave with in certain way see some members not keeping the end of their bargain.

We agreed to observe OpSec. Yet we have some members stating we should not care about OpSec!

[RogueLeader]

Maybe you don't understand this, but a lot of actionable intel for bad people isn't a FB posting that says "I'll be here on this day",
it's little pieces of info culled together over time.

Don't be that guy.

How many examples can you give us, in the 70+ history of CAP after WWII, where CAP was targeted for terrorist activity / by "bad people"?

CAP is not some super-secret OPSEC organization; units proudly blast their meeting time, attendees, and locations on FB for new recruits along with their missions. It's CAP. We do public, transparent service as civilians.

Knock it off with the fear propaganda.

I have. And no, I'm not giving out details other than it was reported to the appropriate authorities.

[Ozzy]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/06/reaper_drones_will_begin_daily_flights_at_syracuses_hancock_airport.html

[vesryn]

I attended the meeting with the CAP members on Monday. Not much was said about the actual mission, but plenty was said about uniforms and the future of CAP planes and aviation.

[etodd]

Geez folks.  All I wanted to do was to let folks know how much fun it was and that it was a learning experience as well, that others might enjoy.

As I was taking cell phone photos of all the inner workings ... the Air Force folks were all like "No problem, take all you want!"  Anything the AF wanted to keep under wraps they would not have let us "civilian volunteers" see. (That logic is escaping a few folks.)

It was someone at our local Wing that went all OpSec on us and told us not to post any of those photos.  The AF could care less.

But of course ... I have and will continue to follow those orders from the CAP guy.

And next time I do something fun and worthwhile in CAP ... I'll just keep it to myself and not let others know they could do it as well. I'll become one of "those clique members" who don't want to share the toys or fun. 

.

[Luis R. Ramos]

And what makes you think that others in here... don't know it's fun?

Why do you think we are here, that we are looking for boring stuff?

[abdsp51]

Geez folks.  All I wanted to do was to let folks know how much fun it was and that it was a learning experience as well, that others might enjoy.

As I was taking cell phone photos of all the inner workings ... the Air Force folks were all like "No problem, take all you want!"  Anything the AF wanted to keep under wraps they would not have let us "civilian volunteers" see. (That logic is escaping a few folks.)

It was someone at our local Wing that went all OpSec on us and told us not to post any of those photos.  The AF could care less.

But of course ... I have and will continue to follow those orders from the CAP guy.

And next time I do something fun and worthwhile in CAP ... I'll just keep it to myself and not let others know they could do it as well. I'll become one of "those clique members" who don't want to share the toys or fun. 

.

I can assure you the AF cares about it's multi million dollar assets...  Were you cleared to take photos possibly in a controlled or restricted area?  Did PA approve you doing so?  Did PA accompany you?   

And I bet you the AF guys who gave you that ok may not have had the authority to make that call.  Either way some of the responses here (at least my initial one)  was not directed at you. 

But since you love to post about disregarding regs you kinda open yourself up....

[etodd]

And what makes you think that others in here... don't know it's fun?

Because of private messages and emails I've gotten where many folks have said it was the first they have heard of it. This mission is open ended at this time, and they are going to need more and more folks to step up. Its surprising me how many Wings are not spreading the word amongst their members, and when a member asks, they tell me its shrugged off.

These type of things could really help with recruitment and retention, and obviously a recruitment person was not consulted by the person who wrote this article. Most folks reading this would assume its just NY members working it. When the truth is that members as far away as FL and WA are helping. That would have been a really good thing to emphasize in the article and would NOT have lead to any type of security issues.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I am pretty sure more members than you think know about it.

Like others have said, you have not proven they do not know.

Have you stopped to think those members you said do not know, may have been practicing OpSec? Not that they do not know, but they do not know you that well and just want to be quiet about what they know?

[Eclipse]

"It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..."

[etodd]

I am pretty sure more members than you think know about it.

Like others have said, you have not proven they do not know.

Have you stopped to think those members you said do not know, may have been practicing OpSec? Not that they do not know, but they do not know you that well and just want to be quiet about what they know?

This is too funny.  If someone is so OpSec to the point they would even disavow any knowledge of the very PUBLIC side of the Mission (forget ANY details) ... then that person is way beyond normal OpSec. That is someone who .... oh forget it. You know the cloak and dagger military wannabe types. LOL

But yes, I've had some good folks asking me , not for details, but who to contact officially for more details and to ask about getting an assignment. And YES ... I send them along to the person in charge. In my best Sergeant Klinger voice ... "I KNOW NOTHING!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo

[AlphaSigOU]

...But yes, I've had some good folks asking me , not for details, but who to contact officially for more details and to ask about getting an assignment. And YES ... I send them along to the person in charge. In my best Sergeant Klinger voice ... "I KNOW NOTHING!"

You mean Sergeant Schultz? (More correctly, Stabsfeldwebel (the equivalent to First Sergeant) Schultz!)

[SarDragon]

When I joined the Navy, back when Noah was a deck hand, I got a security briefing. One of the biggest things they stressed was the concept we now call OpSec. One part of that was NOT telling people that you even had a clearance. Another was to not disclose the specific level of your clearance. Still a third was to not talk about classified stuff, even by skirting around it, unless under proper circumstances.

One of the ways the bad guys accumulate information is by collecting little bits at a time, and assembling them into bigger items. Talking about something like the Reaper mission, over and above what has been officially released, is bad form. If you don't know exactly what is or isn't sensitive, then you just do not discuss it. It isn't your place to decide what's OK, and what's not.

[etodd]

It isn't your place to decide what's OK, and what's not.

Baaam.  And thats the deal I'm talking about. The NY Wing and some of their Squadrons obviously have determined what can be used for promotions and do it quite well:

https://www.facebook.com/CentralNewYorkGroupCivilAirPatrol/?fref=ts

But folks at other Wings say NO! KEEP QUIET!  So we have a terrible consistency problem amongst brass from wing to wing.  Making it a nightmare for those who would like to promote these exciting things to potential CAP members.  Its like ... "Hey, come join us. Once you do and know the secret handshake, THEN I can tell you what we do!"   

[abdsp51]

It isn't your place to decide what's OK, and what's not.

Baaam.  And thats the deal I'm talking about. The NY Wing and some of their Squadrons obviously have determined what can be used for promotions and do it quite well:

https://www.facebook.com/CentralNewYorkGroupCivilAirPatrol/?fref=ts

But folks at other Wings say NO! KEEP QUIET!  So we have a terrible consistency problem amongst brass from wing to wing.  Making it a nightmare for those who would like to promote these exciting things to potential CAP members.  Its like ... "Hey, come join us. Once you do and know the secret handshake, THEN I can tell you what we do!"

Says the guy who advocates breaking regs or bending them ....

[Spam]

If Spam was NYWG DO-for-a-day I would try something like this (bearing in mind, this is a lunchtime off the cuff plan):



- Develop the ANG customer requirements for the mission
Define CONOPS for representative mission(s)
Derive CAP aircraft requirements (C172? 182? Maule? etc.)
Derive CAP aircrew Knowledge/Skills/Attributes (KSAs) in terms of quals/hours/clearances
Draft requirements for sortie generation rate (per class? seasonal? other factors?)
Draft requirements if any for form flight training (lesson learned from CAP multi ship low levels)
Draft requirements if any for program sight level (visual) security, base access, and ramp access (probably none)
Draft requirements if any to read in per the Security Classification Guide for this program
Based on SGR, aircraft burn rates, and TDY estimates, draft funding profiles and documents (for a MIPR to CAP through 1AF)
Define required CDRLs (documentation) and monthly reporting (to include safety reviews)
Write a Safety/Mishap plan (what to do in case of midairs/ramp mishaps)
Prep a short training package for incoming/rotating CAP crews and staff
Define required program reviews and any other deliverables
Allow time for review chain and NHQ (corporate officer) approval NLT x weeks before need date
Allow time for core mission staff formation and fam, and then a call for aircrew, NLT y weeks before need date
Do not announce program yet Document a proposed PA plan (and cover story if necessary) to the customer for approval.

- Meet with NYWG/CC and selected ops staff
Staff a draft Ops Plan for the above mission content for comment / present a smooth for signature chain
Plan would have an aircrew sortie generation rate requirement
Plan would document what portion would be NYWG organic, NER organic, and nationally sourced members
Plan would flow down all customer requirements and answer how CAP would track and meet them
Thus plan would include aircrew requirements and security requirements
Plan would include a staffing plan to quietly screen/select/invite aircrew based on documented requirements
Do not announce program yet - propose a coordinated PA plan or cover story based on customer security requirements

- Staff the plan through NER/DO and NER/CC
Gain approval on a staffing plan to quietly screen, select, invite NER candidates
Gain approval on PA plan elements

- Staff through NHQ/NOC/etc.
Gain approval on a staffing plan and PA elements
Signature for CAP

- Route back through 1AF (or whoever, on the USAF/ANG side) to the ANG Wing, and commence ops

- Execute staff and aircrew selection IAW the security and operational requirements
This means that aircrew selection may indeed be via personal vetting and the use of the online eServices security/JPAS system
This does not imply favoritism, but a DoD approved process to verify cleared individuals are properly accessed and read in to programs

- At the approved point, execute the planned PA program
This could include a national level PA release
It could include a statement that "aircrew are selected based on a set of customer criteria including _____ (formation flight experience, security clearances, etc.)".
It could include a POC for further inquiry.


In my mind, I would hope to see something like this, ideally.

You can ask your customer to make a determination pretty quickly (would take a half hour to review their SCG and have a chat) and document it for CAP.

Do not assume something is (U) and then release program information just because someone else did (customer or CAP, of any level, even if it is a Secretary level or POTUS).


V/r
Spam

[NIN]

So here's the thing:

The existence of MQ-9s in SYR is *clearly* not secret. The AF, the ANG, the local pols and news media have all heralded the arrival of the replacement for the F-16s, etc.

But the release of information on the transition to the MQ-9 for the ANG in SYR has come from "authorized sources," ie. the ANG PAO shop, the NYANG PAO shop, etc, people who are trained and authorized to communicate information about missions, capabilities, etc, to the media and the public.  They know what is fair game and what is verboten.

The MQ-9's as an aircraft, and its mission set isn't secret, either.  Spend 10 minutes of AF.mil and you'll know pretty much all you need to know about the MQ-9, and lacking in that, General Atomics and Wikipedia can fill in your gaps.

Again, there are people who are putting this kind of information out there in a controlled, managed process who are trained and authorized to do so.  They don't let Sparky the avionics tech from the factory write unfettered website copy for GA's site. Things shown there get reviewed for appropriateness, security, etc.

These are very general, very safe things to talk about.

So, too, is our support mission for the MQ-9. That we are supporting our ANG partners as part of the Total Force™ is not a secret.  Even the broader sense of _what_ we're doing and _why_ isn't a secret.  That paints a nice good light for our contribution to GA safety, etc.  Super. Again, however, the communiques on this are put out by people who have reviewed and adjusted their messaging and have had it reviewed by our Total Force™ partners, so that everybody is on the same page and putting out the correct, non-specific information.

Now, someone comes along with a cell phone snappie somewhere north of the airport with the MQ-9 in view over the glareshield and the compass and altimeter in plain view (or the GPS unit).  Or posts a screengrab of her Foreflight with GPS coordinates and other "operational details."  Or blabs on CAPTalk about how "from 3000 ft the entire Finger Lakes region is beautiful, if only we didn't have to fly so fast to keep up.." or something similar.

Saying "Hey, I'm going to SYR this week to participate" or "Just came back, and the mission is excellent" is not the same as "We'll be taking off at 0900 as a two ship, CAP5592, and flying the southern route to the MOA, returning to escort the bird to the barn at 2000 that night."

[Spam]

Yep.... sounds about right. I was merely speculating about the steps I would take to determine a reasonable support plan for such missions, as opposed to either guessing or varying wildly between knee jerk "secret squirrel" and "blab everything" reactions.

Having a plan to assess the (total) risk (safety, security, organizational, etc.) puts us in a good position to then enact a measured resource call across our many units. As opposed to a word of mouth/spasmatic deployment.

Cheers,
Spam

[SarDragon]

I'm going to cherry pick some statements from various posts that all point to the same conclusion (all emphasis mine):

But the release of information on the transition to the MQ-9 for the ANG in SYR has come from "authorized sources," ie. the ANG PAO shop, the NYANG PAO shop, etc, people who are trained and authorized to communicate information about missions, capabilities, etc, to the media and the public.  They know what is fair game and what is verboten.

Again, there are people who are putting this kind of information out there in a controlled, managed process who are trained and authorized to do so.

Again, however, the communiques on this are put out by people who have reviewed and adjusted their messaging and have had it reviewed by our Total Force™ partners, so that everybody is on the same page and putting out the correct, non-specific information.

Do not assume something is (U) and then release program information just because someone else did (customer or CAP, of any level, even if it is a Secretary level or POTUS).

It isn't your place to decide what's OK, and what's not. If you want to pass on already released information, that's great. But that's all. You should not be giving out random stuff that you have collected just because it seems to paint a better picture of this kool new mission.

[etodd]

If you want to pass on already released information, that's great.

YES,  that's the point. Already released information.  All I have ever wanted to do from day one on our local squadrons website and Facebook page is already existing information and saying that we participated.  It would be a great marketing tool for new members.

But with the horrible inconsistencies between different wing commands some wings are saying no, no, no. That is my point. I've showed what others are doing  And there are many more around the country. Not showing anything at all secretive, but just showing what the Air Force and Cap headquarters has already been doing.   But you have some brass at wing levels that enjoys the power trip it seems, at able to talk about operational security and putting the clamp down, even on Air Force publicly available material.

Consistency across command levels would be a really good thing.

[Holding Pattern]

If you want to pass on already released information, that's great.

YES,  that's the point. Already released information.  All I have ever wanted to do from day one on our local squadrons website and Facebook page is already existing information and saying that we participated.  It would be a great marketing tool for new members.

Have you worked with your PAO to put together a news release?

[etodd]

If you want to pass on already released information, that's great.

YES,  that's the point. Already released information.  All I have ever wanted to do from day one on our local squadrons website and Facebook page is already existing information and saying that we participated.  It would be a great marketing tool for new members.

Have you worked with your PAO to put together a news release?

PAO received orders from Wing to not publicize. Shot it down from the start. Hence my frustrated posts above in regards to no consistency from one Wing to another.

Oh well.  It is what it is.  I'll move on now and not mention it again.  I'll just become one of 'those old Senior guys' who just enjoy flying the airplane and ignores the rest of the program. I'm starting to understand how they got that way.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I am not commenting on this one...

Oh yes I am. You have been publicizing it so much, the PAO would not have been able to keep with you!