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Author Topic: Health information  (Read 6427 times)
RNOfficer
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Posts: 230

« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2016, 01:48:03 AM »


Recognizing that courses taken entirely on line are not acceptable, but that a local hands on element led by local personnel coupled with an online course could meet the requirement, could the Health Services team please research, compare, evaluate, and recommend courses which combine an affordable (preferably free) package of training that meets the standards cited in the excerpt below.

....


In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).

However, as I've stated previously, IMO, the 8 hour ARC course is very nearly worthless for providing actual care in an emergency. The CPR portion of the ARC course is very abbreviated . So as a practical matter, I would not bother with that certification unless there is some specific need.

The recommended compression only CPR is so simple that it takes only minutes to learn. What I do instead is borrow CPR dummies from our local ARC chapter and have interested members practice it a AT LEAST TWICE a year.. IMO PRACTICE is key to maintaining CPR skills.

The American Heart Association offers "CPR for health care providers" which is what EMT-B must take. It's a very complete and useful course but not free.

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754837
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2016, 11:08:04 AM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:22:37 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2016, 11:53:37 AM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:22:55 PM by SarDragon » Logged
CAPDCCMOM
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Posts: 229

« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2016, 12:16:35 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:23:15 PM by SarDragon » Logged
PHall
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2016, 01:31:35 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:23:41 PM by SarDragon » Logged
CAPDCCMOM
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Posts: 229

« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2016, 01:32:58 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:23:56 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Thonawit
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2016, 06:47:15 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:24:08 PM by SarDragon » Logged
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 06:48:46 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:24:19 PM by SarDragon » Logged
THRAWN
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 07:08:14 PM »

Nope. See my post at the bottom of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:24:31 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Strup
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SarDragon
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 07:28:51 PM »

 I'm trying to strike a happy medium here, and y'all don't seem to want to cooperate. We can go one of two ways on this.

We can either:

Keep it serious and on topic, and continue the thread.

or

Click it off, and we're done with the whole business.

Someone is offering up information that you can choose to either use, or ignore. If you don't like it, move on.
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Dave Bowles
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RNOfficer
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2016, 09:10:04 PM »

I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2016, 10:48:27 PM »

I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.

So as an example, me in WA state with a CPR card, what benefit would the EMR course net me? What further things could I do? Are there things I would be obligated to do?
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RNOfficer
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Posts: 230

« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2016, 11:35:48 PM »

I previously wrote:

In my post suggesting Emergency Medical Responder certification I did not discuss cost like the OP requested. Browsing the web, EMR courses  range seems to be about $300 and up, BUT this course can be taught by an EMT-B and many units have one of these. I'm researching what additional training, if any, an EMT-B needs to be an instructor.

Alternatively, a CAP group, for example, could pay for a member's training as an ARC First Aid/ CPR instructor. Then I think that member could give classes for any price including free (text must be purchased).


I've done some research on the training that an EMT-B or other medical professional like RN, OD. or MD)needs to have to instruct an Emergency Medical Responder course.

My advice would be to contact your state's Office of Emergency Management or similar agency that oversees EMR training. Some states only require that the EMT_B have two years experience.  Other states require a series of activities *eg: audit EMT course, help teach and EMR course, teach the EMR courses under supervision. Only your state agency can tell you what training is required to be an EMR institutor (in addition to EMT-B) in YOUR state.

So as an example, me in WA state with a CPR card, what benefit would the EMR course net me? What further things could I do? Are there things I would be obligated to do?

An EMR is trained to provide basic life support until more highly qualified responders arrive. There's lots to do however it depends on how your state agency define the "scope of practice". Too much to list here.

I have a pdf copy of the most common EMR textbook; Emergency Medical Responder A Skills Approach that I can send you (or anyone else) if you PM me. It's not the current edition (it's the 3rd Canadian; the current edition is the fourth) so it can't be used as a text for the course but it will tell you the skills an EMR learns.

As to what you are REQUIRED to do; the basic principle of American law is you are required to do NOTHING unless you are in a position of responsibility over the victim Eg: Your child is injured, you have a duty to do what ever you are competent to do.  Similarly, you are supervising cadets on the flight line; you are obligated to provide care to the victim up to the limits of your training or your scope of practice, whichever is more restrictive.

However, If a member of the public wanders onto the flightline and is beheaded by a propeller, you are not required to do anything because you have no duty of responsibility toward this person (assuming you have not been assigned and accepted a position of providing emergency care on the flight line).

If you are providing the help gratuitously, you are protected from a lawsuit (unless you are grossly negligent) by the state Good Samaritan law,which varies somewhat from state to state so you should be familiar with your state's even if you just render CPR.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=4.24.300

BTW, if you are in a "Civil Law" jurisdiction such as France and almost all countries in the world that were not British colonies you probably have an affirmative duty to help anyone.

You might recall the two episode of the Seinfeld Finale where fictitiously Massachusetts.has adopted the "Civil Law" rule of duty toward anyone. Consequently, the Seinfeld quartet are convicted of this offense for failing to aid a man whose car is stolen. They are sentenced to a year in jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Finale_(Seinfeld)

Also, BTW, when using "Civil Law" in this sense it has nothing to do with what Americans call civil law, the law between individual such as contracts. The US, the UK and most former British and American colonies Have "Common Law". Most of the rest of the world is modeled on French law which is called "Civil Law".
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 11:40:11 PM by RNOfficer » Logged
SarDragon
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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2016, 01:37:40 AM »

And again I will quote the overriding CAP regulation (CAPR 160-1), emphasis mine:

Quote
1-6. Medical Care Policy.
a. CAP is not a health care provider, and CAP members are not permitted to act in the role of health care providers during the performance of official CAP duties. Consequently, CAP members are not permitted to function as pharmacists, physicians, nurses, or in any other role that would permit the administration and dispensing of drugs under various federal and state laws and regulations.
b. Medical care within CAP is limited to emergency first aid and may be provided only by members with appropriate training and experience. Such care shall continue only until professional medical care can be obtained.
c. Any member can assist another member in distress in order to save the life of the member. Members are encouraged to inform activity leadership, health service officers, those in direct contact with the member of their condition, and critical information for support that may be needed. Should any CAP member be required by law to render aid by virtue of his or her professional credential or state license (such as a paramedic or emergency medical technician, for example), such CAP member in complying with his or her legal obligations shall be deemed to be doing so either as the agent of his or her employer or as an agent of the state agency that issued his or her license, but in no event as the agent of CAP.
d. CAP members providing emergency first aid will inform first responders, like emergency medical services, what they have done so that further care is not hindered. All occurrences must be documented in accordance with CAPR 62-2, Mishap Reporting and Review.

You keep proposing that CAP members provide various levels of medical assistance, as a function of their CAP membership. The reg above specifically prohibits such action. How can we make it more clear?
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Dave Bowles
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DakRadz
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2016, 08:09:30 AM »

Dave, it is a BIG stretch to call most of what an EMR is trained for, anything other than "emergency first aid."

While the course would be rather lengthy, it does go over many basic, appropriate skills you generally wouldn't need a doctor or state permission to perform as a civilian.

Bleeding control, CPR, airway (mostly positioning, opening, clearing- all able to be done without specialized equipment at this level).


I'd argue that the EMR course would be very beneficial for ground teams out of all the available options- but it's usually 3 months long.

I don't recall much, if anything, an EMR can do that would contradict our regulations, provided it was an emergency situation.

Now, as a paramedic, I often have supplies, skills, or knowledge that would be inappropriate to utilize in a CAP context. But that's literally the top of the pyramid, with EMR being the bottom.


ETA: bold/italics/et al don't show up on Tapatalk, but I believe we are still on the same wavelength.

1st Lt Raduenz
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:26:00 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2016, 10:24:15 AM »

ETA: bold/italics/et al don't show up on Tapatalk, but I believe we are still on the same wavelength.

1st Lt Raduenz


Why, whatever do you mean?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:26:16 PM by SarDragon » Logged
SarDragon
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2016, 04:31:28 PM »

The point of contention here is this statement:

Should any CAP member be required by law to render aid by virtue of his or her professional credential or state license (such as a paramedic or emergency medical technician, for example), such CAP member in complying with his or her legal obligations shall be deemed to be doing so either as the agent of his or her employer or as an agent of the state agency that issued his or her license, but in no event as the agent of CAP.

Particular emphasis is placed on the final part: but in no event as the agent of CAP.

You can do anything you are trained, and in some cases required, to do, but NOT as a representative of CAP. That's what it seems like the OP is advocating.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2016, 04:57:03 PM »

Wait/wot?

I was the OP for the First Aid subtopic, within this Health Information thread (if I have your terms right). ALL I WAS AFTER, was to channel the energy of the chowder and marching society away from political debates and... unusual... health topics, towards providing a useful menu of options for local units to choose from to meet the quote, "First Aid", unquote, training requirement for the Ground Team 3 SQTR signoff. I provided the reg requirement.

There have been a couple of good point solutions so far, and then it seems to have veered off into debates about legalities.  I'd like to suggest that we stick to providing concrete training course options of use to local Commanders. If people want to debate levels of care, how about a new thread?

FIRST AID COURSES ONLY - PER THE REGS - PER THAT STANDARD LISTED (ONLY!)


Thanks, y'all.

V/R
Spam
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:01:33 PM by SarDragon » Logged
DakRadz
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2016, 05:02:31 PM »

I understand that. What I was trying to communicate is that you would be covered under "emergency first aid" for a vast majority of what an EMR is taught. Now, things like a bag valve mask (used to breathe for someone who isn't, for those who may not know) or probably a C-collar are different, but those also require you to actively carry additional gear with you, despite a responsibility to know CAP regulations.

I am too ADHD sometimes, and on a cell phone tend to ramble or meander. Hopefully that was more concise.

1st Lt Raduenz

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SarDragon
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2016, 05:06:01 PM »

Wait/wot?

I was the OP for the First Aid subtopic, within this Health Information thread (if I have your terms right). ALL I WAS AFTER, was to channel the energy of the chowder and marching society away from political debates and... unusual... health topics, towards providing a useful menu of options for local units to choose from to meet the quote, "First Aid", unquote, training requirement for the Ground Team 3 SQTR signoff. I provided the reg requirement.

There have been a couple of good point solutions so far, and then it seems to have veered off into debates about legalities.  I'd like to suggest that we stick to providing concrete training course options of use to local Commanders. If people want to debate levels of care, how about a new thread?

FIRST AID COURSES ONLY - PER THE REGS - PER THAT STANDARD LISTED (ONLY!)


Thanks, y'all.

V/R
Spam

Oops. Sorry. Really. You are absolutely correct.

Your channeling effort is appreciated. One of the follow-on replies was my actual focus.
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Dave Bowles
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