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Author Topic: Health information  (Read 10649 times)
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2016, 06:14:39 PM »

Well, well, did you really need to go there?  Care to share the fact that many, many more deaths are caused through nursing mistakes, accidents, neglect, and actual murder?  The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe.  Shall we begin, or?  Don't want none, don't start none.

As I pointed out there is an area where chiropractic has a recognized role in medicine, the treatment of lower back pain. Unfortunately some irresponsible  chiropractors use. manipulation in the treatment of neck pain despite the fact that it has been shown in many studies that this treatment is both ineffective and unsafe.

You claim that "The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe.
" Please provide a source for this incredible claim.

To my knowledge the AMA does not "endorse" particular treatments. Actually what the AMA did was permit individual physicians to refer patients for chiropractic treatment and allowed physicians to "associate" (form a practice with) chiropractics. As noted there have been several articles in JAMA that state chiropractic has been shown to be useful in the treatment of lower back pain". The AMA  has never, to my knowledge, stated that chiropractics is "safe".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349822/?page=1

Of course, I don't claim to know everything and if you have evidence that "The AMA notes Chiropractic care is safe", please supply it.

There is abundant evidence that chiropractic manipulation of the neck is dangerous. Note that it was a coroner that expressly found that model Katie May's death was caused by chiropractic manipulation.

I sincerely hope that my original post will preserve at least one CAP member from death or serious harm..
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,280
Unit: Classified

« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2016, 06:34:51 PM »

If you don't like the responses then don't post.  Honestly this goes to show half of what you post are things that need to be discussed between a PCM and patient.  Plus you dodged the statements and questions about other medical proffesionals...
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,918
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2016, 11:24:40 PM »

OK, folks, this is the last warning. We are not in a fourth grade playground.

I agree two-thirds with abdsp51's last post. The first two-thirds. The final sentence was a little overboard.

The rules:

1. Information only. No opinions, no politics. Polite discussion is encouraged. Let's try to have some specific relevance to CAP.
2. If you don't like it, drive on. Snarky comments are unnecessary.
3. If you think it's incorrect, report it, and drive on. Leave the flaming in the flame locker. The mods will sort it out. If you disagree, explain why, and present facts. See #1.

New one - 4: Change the post title to reflect the post you are responding to. Either quote the post, and delete unneeded text, or directly edit the title. I've been doing this, but it's time for y'all to be handling this. It's not hard.

I think there's value in this post, as long as we play nicely. The next time it gets out of hand, it gets clicked.

Got it? Good. Chive on.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2016, 11:44:37 PM »

“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:43:22 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 394

« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2016, 01:07:20 AM »

Chiropractors and the neck.


RN:

Please consider the "sources" you cite!  None of the "sources" report research, none are peer reviewed studies.  Each of your internet sources are hearsay, cherry picked, and of little or no value in 'proving' anything.  I am disappointed in your foray into innuendo and accusation that is better left to media outlets that specialize is such fare. 
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grunt82abn
Forum Regular

Posts: 185

« Reply #125 on: October 22, 2016, 07:02:53 AM »

“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993

Very nice citation and great post!!!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:43:49 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #126 on: October 22, 2016, 06:26:28 PM »

“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke was found during a study which involved approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at the National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago”

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19

“A review of more than a half-million treatments over a nine-year period at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic found no incidents of strokes.”

Upper Cervical Syndrome, Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1988 195-222

NIH reports “An analysis of Medicare claims data from older Americans who sought care for neck pain from chiropractors suggests that cervical spine manipulation is unlikely to cause stroke.”

Whedon JM, Song Y, Mackenzie TA, et al. Risk of stroke after chiropractic spinal manipulation in Medicare B beneficiaries aged 66 to 99 years with neck pain. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. 2015;38(2):93-101.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low.”

Thiel H W, Bolton J E, Docherty S, et al. Safety of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Spine 2007;32:2375-8.

“There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low-back pain.” “Chiropractic should be the treatment of choice for low back pain – excluding traditional medical care altogether…”

A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain, Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993

Thanks for your interest in this. Usually I do not cite academic journals because most users do not have access to them nor would not benefit much from reading them. I have access to a major university's library and the library of our osteopathic college. In the future it would be courteous to provide links to the sources you quote.

 As for the sources you cite

“Not a single case of vertebral artery stroke" 

This was a "study" conducted by chiropractors at a chiropractic college and published in a chiropractic journal. The biases are obvious and chiropractors are not trained in research. This thirty-five year old article is not available online nor even at our local osteopathic college so it's hard to believe you actually read this article. If you have the article please send me a copy.

“Although minor side effects following cervical spine manipulation were relatively common, the risk of a serious adverse event, immediately or up to 7 days after treatment, was low to very low."

No one has claimed that the risk of serious side effect is other than low. Of course that does not matter to Katie May.

Also BTW, these two articles you quote were not done in the USA. Chiropractic is very different in other countries  - - in fact it varies very considerably with the US. Even if if these studies were unbiased and well-conducted, there's no reason to believe that foreign chiropractic is the same an that practiced in the USA.

Your other references are irrelevant. This thread is about chiropractic neck manipulation not lower-back. And in the op I stated that chiropractic was found to be helpful in lower back pain.

I'm looking forward to you sending me a copy of the relevant article about this 35 year old study from Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1980; 3: 213-19 so it can be evaluated as a whole and not a single cut-n-paste sentence. Thanks
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:44:37 PM by SarDragon » Logged
AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #127 on: October 22, 2016, 10:55:22 PM »

Nurses kill patients:

Charles Cullen, Suspected to have killed up to 300 patients during his 16-year stint as a nurse, Charles Cullen may be the most prolific killer in America. Cullen injected his patients with lethal amounts of digoxin, which helped his crimes go undetected. He claimed that he only killed them out of mercy. Despite being helpful in the investigation, Cullen was sentenced to 11 consecutive life sentences with no chance for parole. I could go on and on.  Chiropractic is safe and effective.  Chiropractors work in military hospitals, returning patients to duty quickly and without the downsides of pain medication.  I have seen children that were told they would never walk again by medical doctors returned to a normal life under chiropractic care.  I have seen patients unable to work due to migraines that could not be helped by medical doctors return to work after chiropractic care.  You took an isolated incident and tried to present it as a common occurrence.  Shame on you.  Malpractice insurance for chiropractors is the lowest of any medical practitioner.  That would not be true if your story had any truth in it.  You are way out of line in this matter.
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AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #128 on: October 22, 2016, 11:00:54 PM »

Department of Defense (DOD)

In recent years, in recognition of the value and benefits of chiropractic care, Congress has passed, and the President has signed into law, legislation establishing a permanent chiropractic care benefit for both active duty military personnel and veterans. Furthermore, a doctor of chiropractic is now stationed in the U.S. Capitol to provide necessary care to members of Congress

To date, there is a doctor of chiropractic at 60 military bases around the country; however, according to a 2005 Government Accountability Office report, only 54 percent of servicemen and women eligible for chiropractic care can reasonably access the benefit. It is still necessary more is done to increase chiropractic access and availability.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:44:58 PM by SarDragon » Logged
PA Guy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »

We get it already!

RN doesn't approve of chiropractic manipulation of the neck.
Aux is an enthusiastic supporter of chiropractic care.

Now why don't the two of you take this to PM if you want to continue this conversation?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,918
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2016, 04:22:11 PM »

Well, sports fans, it's been six weeks, and 130 posts. IMHO, 69 of the posts provided some sort of usable information, and the remainder were commentary about the 69.

The most useful set of posts seems to be the ones about first aid. The rest were mostly contentious. There was questionable specific relevance to CAP, and the overall popularity of the thread seemed low.

It's pretty obvious that many of you don't want to play nice, or follow directions, so we're done, both with this thread, and the "health information" posts in general.

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Health information
 


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