Check out the updated CAPR 36-1. There are new Equal Opportunity/ Non-Dicriminat

[kcebnaes]

I am very sorry if this has already been posted or is in the wrong area. I promise I used the search function!



Anyways, CAPR 36-1 was updated as of 4 August. Here's the link!  https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf

[raivo]

Neat. Although it (possibly deliberately) still doesn't really address the questions that have come up on here previously, WRT how to handle transgender individuals in gender-segregated/specific situations.

[Spam]

Someone finally noticed it!

V/R
Spam

[jeders]

Neat. Although it (possibly deliberately) still doesn't really address the questions that have come up on here previously, WRT how to handle transgender individuals in gender-segregated/specific situations.

Actually it really kind of does. It defers these questions to DoD policy, specifically DoD Instruction 1300.28 which says, in short, that if your ID says your are X you will be treated in all ways as X. If a person wants to transition, then that person gets a medical diagnosis saying that transition is necessary and must get the legal gender on his/her ID changed to the new gender.

This is of course only based upon my non-learned reading of the documents and may or may not reflect national policy. Hopefully Ned will write something on the topic.

[LSThiker]

Neat. Although it (possibly deliberately) still doesn't really address the questions that have come up on here previously, WRT how to handle transgender individuals in gender-segregated/specific situations.

Actually it really kind of does. It defers these questions to DoD policy, specifically DoD Instruction 1300.28 which says, in short, that if your ID says your are X you will be treated in all ways as X. If a person wants to transition, then that person gets a medical diagnosis saying that transition is necessary and must get the legal gender on his/her ID changed to the new gender.

This is of course only based upon my non-learned reading of the documents and may or may not reflect national policy. Hopefully Ned will write something on the topic.

Exactly. 

Here is the link to DoD I 1300.28, which takes effect 01 October 2016, but was written June 2016:
http://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0616_policy/DoD-Instruction-1300.28.pdf

The Military Departments and Services recognize a Service member's gender by the
member's gender marker in the DEERS.  Coincident with that gender marker, the Services apply, and the member is responsible to meet, all standards for uniforms and grooming; body composition assessment (BCA); physical readiness testing (PRT); military Personnel Drug Abuse Testing Program (MPDATP) participation; and other military standards applied with consider
ation of the member's gender.  As to facilities subject to regulation by the military, the Service member will use those berthing, bathroom, and shower facilities associated with the member's gender marker in DEERS

So basically, instead of DEERS, we have state issued ID.

[RogueLeader]

The two issues that I have in pointing to the DOD instruction, is that we have no input into the system other than through the Air Force.  The second issue is that this does not take parental decisions into the equation- nor should it as those in the DOD are Adults- nor does it take into account the developing young adults that we are charged with protecting.  Those in the military are past puberty- at least the tail end of it, and able to (usually) deal with differences in an appropriate manner, and are in an environment to which those that aren't- are able to have their behavior modified one a daily basis if needed.

[jeders]

The two issues that I have in pointing to the DOD instruction, is that we have no input into the system other than through the Air Force. 

Why do we need input into that system other than through the Air Force?

The second issue is that this does not take parental decisions into the equation

How so? If a cadet who is a minor wants to change legal gender, then they are going to have to get assistance from their parents. As far as CAP is concerned, parental decisions have already been handled between the parents/child/courts/doctors before CAP even gets involved.

Also, we should keep in mind that this policy is for everyone, not just cadets.

[RogueLeader]

The two issues that I have in pointing to the DOD instruction, is that we have no input into the system other than through the Air Force. 

Why do we need input into that system other than through the Air Force?

Because it affects us just as much as it does the other services and we have very little, if any say in the matter.

The second issue is that this does not take parental decisions into the equation

How so? If a cadet who is a minor wants to change legal gender, then they are going to have to get assistance from their parents. As far as CAP is concerned, parental decisions have already been handled between the parents/child/courts/doctors before CAP even gets involved.

Also, we should keep in mind that this policy is for everyone, not just cadets.

I'm not particularly worried about the cadet that is changing, other than whatever negative reactions from other cadets- which will be handled as need by Senior Members.  I'm also not worried about adults that go through the change.

I'm concerned about those parents that do not think that having a member that is physically different than their cadet using the same barracks/shower facilities.  You (not saying you specifically) can say that they should just get over with it, and deal with it, but that does little to help keep those cadets around, or the parents happy to keep shelling money out to keep the cadets involved.  There are parents out there that do not and will not consider it ok. Those parents have just as much of a right to know whats going on, and have a say in the program as the parents of cadets that are changing their gender.  Are we willing to write those cadets out of the program?

[jeders]

The two issues that I have in pointing to the DOD instruction, is that we have no input into the system other than through the Air Force. 

Why do we need input into that system other than through the Air Force?

Because it affects us just as much as it does the other services and we have very little, if any say in the matter.

Agreed that it affects us, but again, we have a voice through the Air Force. Also, we don't really need a voice because if CAP determines that the DoD policy doesn't work, we can always come up with our own.

[Good stuff that's worth reading] Are we willing to write those cadets out of the program?

If need be, yes. We cannot discriminate against one person because it makes another person uncomfortable.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Those parents have ...a say in the program...

No. They don't.


I will run the program as directed by regulations and higher headquarters, not by how some parents feel it should be run to conform to their beliefs. Don't like it, feel free to take your kid out of the program, but I would never let ANY parent influence ANY aspect of the program from outside.

[Live2Learn]

Those parents have ...a say in the program...

No. They don't.


I will run the program as directed by regulations and higher headquarters, not by how some parents feel it should be run to conform to their beliefs. Don't like it, feel free to take your kid out of the program, but I would never let ANY parent influence ANY aspect of the program from outside.

Hmm...  Seems a little extreme, and also seems like without due care there are other aspects ("cadet protection" being one) that a rigid interpretation might run afoul of by ignoring parents.  Sometimes, perhaps the boot is best for all, but as the first rule of operation of an all volunteer, public service, USAF auxiliary?  Perhaps the nuclear warheads in your arsenal should only be deployed with great care.  Then used with a very close eye to the immediate and long term consequences.  Just perhaps.

[RogueLeader]

I will run the program as directed by regulations and higher headquarters, not by how some parents feel it should be run to conform to their beliefs.

And I do as well.  That being said, we can- and we should- keep in mind of what the parents believe as well.  Is that the final determination?  I would hope not, but it definitely should be a consideration in the process.

The term "reasonable accommodation" would be a good, though imperfect, compromise.  I do not see a good, clear solution that is going to make everybody happy.  The best thing that I can see is to find a way that keeps all members respectful, and safe from anything that will cause harm.  I don't see that anything in the way of direct policy that will be able to solve every facet of this issue.

[Damron]

Neat. Although it (possibly deliberately) still doesn't really address the questions that have come up on here previously, WRT how to handle transgender individuals in gender-segregated/specific situations.

CAP is a private nonprofit corporation chartered by Congress.  It has no inherent protection from state and federal laws protecting those identifying as transgendered.  While we might adopt Air Force standards of conduct and uniforms, we don't have the same immunity from legal action that the armed forces enjoy. 

[CAPAPRN]

Just one "minor" question- exactly what ID does a minor have delineating gender? I am retired military- and have children (who are cadets) and they even have a dependent ID card- which again doesn't list gender. A birth certificate is just that - a certificate of live birth and as it has no picture is really not an "ID" and I think the whole purpose of the DOD using the wording "ID" was to eliminate the idea of "birth gender." Exactly what ID do we accept? The DOD is talking about their ID card- not sure how we reference this. I do have a transgendered cadet in my unit- he dropped out partially because of grooming standards- what exactly is the standard for identification? I might add the young person has no immediate plans to rejoin, but it is a looming issue. Thanks I appreciate any thoughtful replies

[LSThiker]

Just one "minor" question- exactly what ID does a minor have delineating gender? I am retired military- and have children (who are cadets) and they even have a dependent ID card- which again doesn't list gender. A birth certificate is just that - a certificate of live birth and as it has no picture is really not an "ID" and I think the whole purpose of the DOD using the wording "ID" was to eliminate the idea of "birth gender." Exactly what ID do we accept? The DOD is talking about their ID card- not sure how we reference this. I do have a transgendered cadet in my unit- he dropped out partially because of grooming standards- what exactly is the standard for identification? I might add the young person has no immediate plans to rejoin, but it is a looming issue. Thanks I appreciate any thoughtful replies

Cadets are not required to show an ID upon joining.  Rather they just need parents' signature.  That is sufficient.  If the change occurs while a member of CAP, then I would assume a simple agreement by the parents is sufficient and a contacting of NHQ.  Hopefully, Ned can fill in the details if a transition occurs during CAP membership and the procedure to change the cadet's gender.   

As far as Senior Members, many states will amend or re-issue a birth certificate upon legally changing one's gender (procedures are dependent on the state).  Therefore, a change in gender is easily accomplished by the amended birth certificate.  Also, a new Passport with the new gender, a new DL, or state issued ID.  I would assume a simple faxing to NHQ to correct the eServices account is all that is required.   

[Eclipse]

Cadets are not required to show an ID upon joining.  Rather they just need parents' signature. 

Incorrect.  Cadets must present, and CC's must certify they have reviewed, identification and proof
of citizenship or legal residency.

[LSThiker]

Cadets are not required to show an ID upon joining.  Rather they just need parents' signature. 

Incorrect.  Cadets must present, and CC's must certify they have reviewed, identification and proof
of citizenship or legal residency.

Disagree.  The commander verifies that he/she has reviewed valid proof of identity, which is not required to be an ID, nor does it require that it has a stated gender. 

I have reviewed valid proof of identity,

Only those that claim they are not a US citizen must provide Form I-151 or I-551.  Whether a person is a valid US citizen is an "on your honor" as a cadet is not required to present a birth certificate or other documentation they are a US citizen.   

Therefore, the only method of verifying a cadet's gender is the box on the CAPF 15 and the parent's signature. 

[Eclipse]

You may want to review the applicable regulations in regards to acceptable documents.

CAPR 39-2, Page 9:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf
"(1) Complete the online application or submit a CAPF 15 in at least three copies and
provide proof of identity to the unit commander. Acceptable documents for proof of identity are
the same documents required on the Form I-9 for employment eligibility verification. See
attachment 2 for a list of these documents. If submitting a paper application, the applicant's
parents or guardian must sign all copies of the application. If using the online application, the
parent or guardian must meet with the unit commander (or designee) in person. "

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

Everything in column "A" will have an indication of gender and a photo,
and while I'm sure if someone works hard enough they can come up with
some obscure combination of B & C that shields gender, the odds of a cadet
being in that position are slim to none.

[LSThiker]

You may want to review the applicable regulations in regards to acceptable documents.

CAPR 39-2, Page 9:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf
"(1) Complete the online application or submit a CAPF 15 in at least three copies and
provide proof of identity to the unit commander. Acceptable documents for proof of identity are
the same documents required on the Form I-9 for employment eligibility verification. See
attachment 2 for a list of these documents. If submitting a paper application, the applicant's
parents or guardian must sign all copies of the application. If using the online application, the
parent or guardian must meet with the unit commander (or designee) in person. "

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

Everything in column "A" will have an indication of gender and a photo,
and while I'm sure if someone works hard enough they can come up with
some obscure combination of B & C that shields gender, the odds of a cadet
being in that position are slim to none.

thank you for correcting me.  However, it does not require an obscure combination.  What would be the most common documents for cadets  to present: a school ID card (which do not have genders), a school report card (which do not have gender), and a social security card (which do not have gender).

So to answer the question, if what ever document they presents states they are gender X, then they are gender X even if they appear to be gender Y.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I tell most folks if they have a passport, bring that. Bam and done.