Promotion to 1st LT due to being a Medic

[chaser430]

If anyone has experience with promotions I would be all ears because my Commander seems very confused as to how to send it my packet even though I thought I included every Regulation and policy backing up my request. I have requested it through the proper 2A form and CAPR-35 regs.

My issue is I am due to be a 2LT on Sept 3rd- I know the Commander has to approve it but I feel like I am in quandary- I want to obviously wear my proper rank but I can't wear anything until its approved and I don't want to waste money on buying 2LT insignia to only have to rebuy 1st LT insignia some time later.
I just don't know what to do here?
Can someone please offer any suggestions? Thanks!

[Eclipse]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

Outside of HMRS, there are no "medics" in CAP, there are Health Services Officers.   For 1st Lt you have to be an RN, PA, or other health care professional
with a bachelor's or master's degree.

Considering that the promotion has to be considered by the Wing HSO, and approved by the Wing CC, and also considering the current status of the Health Services
program nationally, this is not likely to be an expeditious process.

See CAPR 35-5, page 16: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf
This would be one of the rare cases still left where "hardcopy"documents would be needed., sent to the Wing HSO unless otherwise directed by Wing OI.

[chaser430]

I do understand that I can't wear it until its approved- I do qualify as a health service officer because I work in the medical field and I have a bachelors degree.
Anything above the 1st LT has to go to Wing and National as where the 1st Lt and below can be approved by the Squadron Commander per CAPR-35-1.
I see specialty badges on Vanguard insignia -   

Civil Air Patrol Cloth Badge: Emergency Medical Technician Basic 
SKU: CAP0749B
$1.10

and the Ground team ones- just wondering if you can wear both once approved or do you just get to pick one? because it fits above your name tape and there's not a lot of room there.

[Eclipse]

Anything above the 1st LT has to go to Wing and National as where the 1st Lt and below can be approved by the Squadron Commander per CAPR-35-1.

1st Lt under a Health Services professional appointment has to be approved by the Wing HSO and the Wing CC. 
It is not within the Unit CC's authority.

See 35-5 Page 16.

[chaser430]

Gotcha thanks

[EMT-83]

It's not enough that you "qualify" for the promotion. Are you currently a Health Services Officer performing duties at the level expected of a first lieutenant?

[Alaric]

I do understand that I can't wear it until its approved- I do qualify as a health service officer because I work in the medical field and I have a bachelors degree.
Anything above the 1st LT has to go to Wing and National as where the 1st Lt and below can be approved by the Squadron Commander per CAPR-35-1.
I see specialty badges on Vanguard insignia -   

Civil Air Patrol Cloth Badge: Emergency Medical Technician Basic 
SKU: CAP0749B
$1.10

and the Ground team ones- just wondering if you can wear both once approved or do you just get to pick one? because it fits above your name tape and there's not a lot of room there.

Promotions for specialty skills are not approved at the Squadron Level for Health Services Personnel specifically see below from 35-5

c. Health Service Personnel. Upon successful completion of Level I, unit commanders may initiate a CAPF 2 on health service personnel recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below. The member's qualifications will be evaluated by the wing health service program officer, who will provide his or her comments and recommendations to the wing commander prior to approval. (Specific qualifications for medical personnel are outlined in CAPR 160-1.)

[JeffDG]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

I would disagree with that.

Once a promotion has been approved, indication in eServices is a ministerial process and not determinative of what grade you are permitted to wear.  I've seen more than on promotion approved by a wing commander end up in a black hole @ NHQ and never show in eServices, and contend that once the appropriate approving authority signs the CAPF 2A, that member is fully entitled to wear that grade, regardless of whether someone at NHQ has clicked a button or not.

[Eclipse]

The olde school days are gone.

In normal cases (duty promotions), it's not approved until the last click, and when the last click happens,
it's in eServices.

I suppose in the rare case like this, where skeuomorphic documents are passed between echelons,
there might be a delay between practical approval and eservices, but how would you know it had been approved then, anyway?

[JeffDG]

The olde school days are gone.

In normal cases (duty promotions), it's not approved until the last click, and when the last click happens,
it's in eServices.

I suppose in the rare case like this, where skeuomorphic documents are passed between echelons,
there might be a delay between practical approval and eservices, but how would you know it had been approved then, anyway?

The regulations disagree.  If the approving authority is the Wing Commander, then the Wing Commander's signature makes it effective.

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

[Eclipse]

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

[JeffDG]

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

Good question, I've talked to NHQ, my DP has talked to them, the Wing/CC has talked to them.  Never seems to get clicked.

What promotions, by regulation, require NHQ approval?

[Eclipse]

What promotions, by regulation, require NHQ approval?

Generals (BOG), Cols (CSAG), Wing / Region Cols & Chief Master Sergeant (HEADCAP).

Capt for FM's has to be "reviewed for comment" by the NHQ CFO.

[jeders]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

I would disagree with that.

Once a promotion has been approved, indication in eServices is a ministerial process and not determinative of what grade you are permitted to wear.  I've seen more than on promotion approved by a wing commander end up in a black hole @ NHQ and never show in eServices, and contend that once the appropriate approving authority signs the CAPF 2A, that member is fully entitled to wear that grade, regardless of whether someone at NHQ has clicked a button or not.

Disagree as you might, the regs say otherwise. Promotions must be validated by NHQ in order to be effective.

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

Good question, I've talked to NHQ, my DP has talked to them, the Wing/CC has talked to them.  Never seems to get clicked.

That just sucks. I'm surprised that it still hasn't been approved, yet somehow not entirely surprised.

[JeffDG]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

I would disagree with that.

Once a promotion has been approved, indication in eServices is a ministerial process and not determinative of what grade you are permitted to wear.  I've seen more than on promotion approved by a wing commander end up in a black hole @ NHQ and never show in eServices, and contend that once the appropriate approving authority signs the CAPF 2A, that member is fully entitled to wear that grade, regardless of whether someone at NHQ has clicked a button or not.

Disagree as you might, the regs say otherwise. Promotions must be validated by NHQ in order to be effective.

Can you cite authority for that?

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

Good question, I've talked to NHQ, my DP has talked to them, the Wing/CC has talked to them.  Never seems to get clicked.

That just sucks. I'm surprised that it still hasn't been approved, yet somehow not entirely surprised.

Latest, they lost paperwork and won't accept the resubmitted paperwork because a license expired...while we were waiting for the original paperwork that we sent to be processed.

Again, as soon as Wing/CC singed, that member was a Major.  The fact NHQ hasn't caught up is not relevant to his grade.  NHQ is not the approving authority, the Wing/CC is in this case.

[MSG Mac]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

I would disagree with that.

Once a promotion has been approved, indication in eServices is a ministerial process and not determinative of what grade you are permitted to wear.  I've seen more than on promotion approved by a wing commander end up in a black hole @ NHQ and never show in eServices, and contend that once the appropriate approving authority signs the CAPF 2A, that member is fully entitled to wear that grade, regardless of whether someone at NHQ has clicked a button or not.

Disagree as you might, the regs say otherwise. Promotions must be validated by NHQ in order to be effective.

Can you cite authority for that?

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

Good question, I've talked to NHQ, my DP has talked to them, the Wing/CC has talked to them.  Never seems to get clicked.

That just sucks. I'm surprised that it still hasn't been approved, yet somehow not entirely surprised.

Latest, they lost paperwork and won't accept the resubmitted paperwork because a license expired...while we were waiting for the original paperwork that we sent to be processed.

Again, as soon as Wing/CC singed, that member was a Major.  The fact NHQ hasn't caught up is not relevant to his grade.  NHQ is not the approving authority, the Wing/CC is in this case.

CAP 35-5 states "Upon validation by National HQ". The fact that the promotion in question was returned without action because of an expired certification, puts the onus on the unit and individual. If he/she recertified fine! If not they are not eligible for the promotion. You can always make them a 2Lt, pending the resubmital and certification.

[JeffDG]

You don't wear grade until after it has been properly approved and indicated in eServices (the occasional pinning ceremony pending a click notwithstanding).

I would disagree with that.

Once a promotion has been approved, indication in eServices is a ministerial process and not determinative of what grade you are permitted to wear.  I've seen more than on promotion approved by a wing commander end up in a black hole @ NHQ and never show in eServices, and contend that once the appropriate approving authority signs the CAPF 2A, that member is fully entitled to wear that grade, regardless of whether someone at NHQ has clicked a button or not.

Disagree as you might, the regs say otherwise. Promotions must be validated by NHQ in order to be effective.

Can you cite authority for that?

We have one promotion that's been waiting for over a year to be clicked by NHQ.  NHQ has no discretion on the promotion, but nobody else has the button.

That puts the member in the uncomfortable position of every report showing an incorrect grade.

If NHQ actually doesn't have authority in the matter, how is this not fixed with a phone call right now?

Good question, I've talked to NHQ, my DP has talked to them, the Wing/CC has talked to them.  Never seems to get clicked.

That just sucks. I'm surprised that it still hasn't been approved, yet somehow not entirely surprised.

Latest, they lost paperwork and won't accept the resubmitted paperwork because a license expired...while we were waiting for the original paperwork that we sent to be processed.

Again, as soon as Wing/CC singed, that member was a Major.  The fact NHQ hasn't caught up is not relevant to his grade.  NHQ is not the approving authority, the Wing/CC is in this case.

CAP 35-5 states "Upon validation by National HQ". The fact that the promotion in question was returned without action because of an expired certification, puts the onus on the unit and individual. If he/she recertified fine! If not they are not eligible for the promotion. You can always make them a 2Lt, pending the resubmital and certification.

Where does it say that?  Because my copy says:
"The promotion will be effective on the date the promotion request is validated by the final approving authority. "

Plus, NHQ sat on it for a year, said the license is expired, and instead of asking for a new license said we would have to resubmit a new package, with a new date, because they lost the paperwork.

[MSG Mac]

CAPR 35-5' Chapter 1 paragraph 8b.

Has the license been renewed? Why did it take your Chain of Command a year before following up with National?  Shoul have been chased after 30-60 days. Once you resubmit the Wing Commander can ask for an adjusted DOR based on National losing the paperwork.

[kwe1009]

CAPR 35-5' Chapter 1 paragraph 8b.

Has the license been renewed? Why did it take your Chain of Command a year before following up with National?  Shoul have been chased after 30-60 days. Once you resubmit the Wing Commander can ask for an adjusted DOR based on National losing the paperwork.

The final approving authority for the vast majority of promotion is not NHQ.  The quote from CAPR 35-5 1-8b is, "The promotion will be effective on the date the promotion request is validated by the final approving authority. Individuals not wishing to use the on-line duty performance promotion system may submit a CAPF 2 in sufficient copies to allow each approving echelon to retain a copy and to provide National Headquarters with one copy."

Chapter 1-5 lists the final promotion authority for each CAP grade. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

No one has said that NHQ is the "final promoting authority."

However people are quoting from 35-5 that NHQ has to "validate the promotion."

There is a difference.

Who prints ID cards? NHQ, not the Promoting Authority.

Who shows grades online? NHQ.

[JeffDG]

No one has said that NHQ is the "final promoting authority."

However people are quoting from 35-5 that NHQ has to "validate the promotion."

There is a difference.

Who prints ID cards? NHQ, not the Promoting Authority.

Who shows grades online? NHQ.

Regardless.

If the Wing Commander signs a 2A as the final promoting authority promoting someone to the Grade of Major, and NHQ doesn't bother posting that promotion, is the member entitled to wear the grade and sign correspondence with said grade?  My answer is an unequivocal "Yes"

[JeffDG]

CAPR 35-5' Chapter 1 paragraph 8b.

Has the license been renewed? Why did it take your Chain of Command a year before following up with National?  Shoul have been chased after 30-60 days. Once you resubmit the Wing Commander can ask for an adjusted DOR based on National losing the paperwork.

Multiple followups every 15-30 days for over a year.

National has said they will not back-date the date of rank to when the original paperwork was submitted.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You keep saying a "2a was submitted." You know that the 2a is the wrong form for promotions, right? The correct form is a CAPF 2. If you sent a CAPF 2a, that may have been the cause of the problem.

[Spaceman3750]

CAPR 35-5' Chapter 1 paragraph 8b.

Has the license been renewed? Why did it take your Chain of Command a year before following up with National?  Shoul have been chased after 30-60 days. Once you resubmit the Wing Commander can ask for an adjusted DOR based on National losing the paperwork.

Multiple followups every 15-30 days for over a year.

National has said they will not back-date the date of rank to when the original paperwork was submitted.

I've been waiting to use this one...

[jeders]

Disagree as you might, the regs say otherwise. Promotions must be validated by NHQ in order to be effective.

Can you cite authority for that?

Yes I can.

CAPR 35-5' Chapter 1 paragraph 8b.

Almost, as this is not a duty promotion.

National Headquarters will validate the CAPF 2 and the promotion will appear in the member's electronic personnel record. E-mail confirmation of the promotion action will be sent to the all commanders in the approval chain. The promotion will be effective on the date the promotion request is validated by National Headquarters.

Emphasis mine

This is from the procedure for any promotion that is submitted by hard copy Form 2; whether it is a mission-skills, special/professional appointment, or duty performance submitted outside of eServices. Until National hits the button to validate the promotion, it id not effect and the member is not of that rank. This is also essentially how the eServices promotion work except that the promotions are validated by the system at each step and are automatically entered into the members record when the final approval is received.

[JC004]

What is this button to validate?  Last promotions I saw (duty performance), they were there right away after the commander approved them.  This USED to be NHQ stamping the corporate seal on the CAPF 2, and of course they sent out membership cards.  I don't think any of them get the corporate seal stamp anymore, except perhaps the special promotions that go up as paper.

[jeders]

What is this button to validate?  Last promotions I saw (duty performance), they were there right away after the commander approved them.  This USED to be NHQ stamping the corporate seal on the CAPF 2, and of course they sent out membership cards.  I don't think any of them get the corporate seal stamp anymore, except perhaps the special promotions that go up as paper.

Which is what we're talking about. On a special promotion, until national validates the paperwork and clicks whatever magic button it is that they click to make the promotion appear in the database.

[chaser430]

After speaking to my Commander we both decided that it would take anywhere from 6 months to a year for Wing and National to approve my 1st LT so, we decided I would just take the 2LT time in grade promotion and become the Primary Medical Officer for our Squadron. So I am perfectly happy with that I didn't know how long it would take to do the 1st LT- so I am good. I am a 2LT Medical Officer and thats just fine with me.

[chaser430]

Your right Jeders:
The Commander can approve it not problem in Eservices, BUT it has to go thru final approval through Wing and then National with the Form 200a paperwork and as alot of your have eluded to it takes forever.
So it kind of seems pointless to offer a possible promotion if it takes as long as the standard promotion.

[Eclipse]

After speaking to my Commander we both decided that it would take anywhere from 6 months to a year for Wing and National to approve my 1st LT so, we decided I would just take the 2LT time in grade promotion and become the Primary Medical Officer for our Squadron. So I am perfectly happy with that I didn't know how long it would take to do the 1st LT- so I am good. I am a 2LT Medical Officer and thats just fine with me.

As a paramedic / EMT you would qualify to be an "HSO" (Health Services Officer).

"1-8. Qualifications of Health Service Personnel. Any health professional or technician may
qualify for a health service appointment in CAP, provided that proof of current unrestricted
licensure, registration, or certification, where such is required by law or regulation, is furnished.
Only physicians will have the title of "medical officer." Only nurse categories will have the title
"nurse officer." All others will be known as "health service officers." The health disciplines of
members that may serve as a unit's Health Service program officer can be found on the
CAP Health Service website at: http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/health-service/.
If a unit has more than one health professional assigned, the most senior in terms of level of
education and training should be the designated health service program officer and any others as
his/her assistants. CAP members who are retired health professionals, but still wish to serve as
health service officers, may do so, provided they retain current state licensure. Many states have
categories of licenses at a lower cost, which allow trained individuals to perform professional
duties as a volunteer (uncompensated)."

See here for the list of disciplines eligible to serve as HSOs:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPHealthServiceDisciplines_8BA051F_B688722FF1EF0.pdf

[chaser430]

Hi Eclipse, yes my Commander did make me the Medical officer so I am very excited at the opportunity.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Hi Eclipse, yes my Commander did make me the Medical officer so I am very excited at the opportunity.

Unless you're a physician, you're not a medical officer.

[chaser430]

Medical service's officer

[arajca]

Medical service's officer

The proper term is Health Services Officer.

[chaser430]

My apologies to all involved for misnaming the position.  Either Medical Officer OR Health services officer it's still the same insignia on the bdu. Only the nurse designation has an N on top of it.

[Eclipse]

Either Medical Officer OR Health services officer it's still the same insignia on the bdu.

"Health Services Officer" is a staff position, it does not have an insignia.

[chaser430]

Eclipse:
Yes there is:

Is there a patch or emblem for a medical officer or nurse and if so how is it worn?

Yes, medical officer and nurse insignia may be worn by certain medical professionals. See CAPR 160-1 Attachment 1 for listing of specific disciplines. Only physician categories will have the title of "medical officer"  and wear the medical officer insignia. Only nurse categories will have the title "nurse officer" and wear the nurse insignia. All others will be known as "health service officers."

Vanguard Item 0749D MEDICAL OFFICER-CLOTH
Medical Officer Insignia. Embroidered in white on ultramarine blue background. For wear on BDUs and CAP Field uniform.

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1663/~/specialty-insignia-for-health-service-officers

[Eclipse]

What is your specific medical certification and degree?

You have indicated here you are a "medic", in normal parlance, that is an EMT or Paramedic.
Neither of those can wear the Medical or Nurse Officer's badge.

You must be a Physician to be appointed a Medical Officer, and a Nurse to be appointed a Nurse Officer
(and wear one or the other badges, respectively).

As an EMT / Paramedic, you may qualify for the staff appointment of "Health Services Officer", which
have neither an operational badge, nor a specialty track badge.

As an EMT Paramedic, you may qualify to were the EMT badge, however that is separate from
any staff appointment as an HSO.

See here for the list of disciplines eligible to serve as HSOs:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPHealthServiceDisciplines_8BA051F_B688722FF1EF0.pdf

[chaser430]

I was a corpsman in the Navy.  I have my BLS and I have a bachelor's degree in the medical field and I am one of the qualified professions under the capr-160 -1 regulations.

[Eclipse]

I was a corpsman in the Navy.  I have my BLS and I have a bachelor's degree in the medical field and I am one of the qualified professions under the capr-160 -1 regulations.

So in regards to wearing the EMT badge, per 39-1:
"10.4.7. Emergency Medical Technician Badges. Worn by current or previously certified Emergency
Medical Technicians. The basic badge is for EMT-Basic, the badge with the star is for EMT-Intermediate
and the badge with the star and the wreath is for EMT-Paramedic. "

Presumably with your BLS you are or were certified as an EMR or EMT in Pennsylvania.  If you're an
EMT, it could be argued you'd qualify for the star on the CAP EMT badge.  If you were never actually certified
as one of the above (or something equivalent in another state), or your only experience is military, you
would not qualify for the EMT badge.

If your Navy badge is approved for wear on the USAF uniform, it may be allowed on the CAP USAF-style combinations.
Check 39-1 or consult national headquarters for that.

While you may have a bachelor's degree, your discipline is considered by CAP as "technician".  You qualify under 160-1 to
be appointed as an HSO, however as you are neither a physician, nor a nurse, you do not qualify for either of those badges.

There is no badge or patch for "HSO".

[DakRadz]

If you just have NREMT, which is what the military gives you, you can wear the EMT badge.

But not if you have the BLS 1-2 day class.

Unfortunately the Navy didn't put Corpsmen through the EMT class for far longer than the Army and AF. Actually, there was an NCIS episode to that effect, apparently it actually spurred some change. (Though they claimed she could have legally criched someone as an EMT)

Anyway, must have one of three things for a CAP badge- EMT/AEMT/Paramedic, or RN license, or MD. I'll double check and update, but I agree with Eclipse here.

1st Lt Raduenz

[jeders]

I had this issue come up a few years ago. We had two individuals join our squadron and both of them had medical backgrounds and both started wearing the medical officer's insignia right away without even asking.

Case 1: Air Force enlisted medical personnel, his day job was medical administration I believe. He figured that since CAP only had the medical officer and nurse badges, that any HSO could wear them. After several attempts to correct him, he finally took off the Medical Officer badge.

Case 2: Army Guard 1LT with a PhD in nutrition joins at about the same time and shows up (before even turning in an application) in a full uniform with captain's bars and medical officer insignia. His medical insignia was eventually conferred based on his job and education, but he was never promoted past 2d Lt.

Neither of these individuals are with CAP anymore, though they both did their very best to practically destroy the squadron before leaving (one as commander and one as a general troublemaker).

Chaser, unless you are a doctor who practices medicine in some form, you are not and cannot be a Medical Officer as that is reserved for physicians. If you are not a Medical Officer, you cannot wear the Medical Officer insignia. You may, however, wear any insignia awarded to you during your time in the military provided that it is allowed by AFI 36-2903.

Thank you for your service and I hope that you find a way to be of service to CAP.