Vanguard and Insignia

[RazorbackPride]

I thought the deal with VG was that they're supposed to stock anything I can't find at MCSS; I can't seem to find any velcro 2x2 grade at all and I can't find FO grade for FDU or parkas. I understand not having the new insignia since it's still summer, but there's not even ultramarine that I can find.

[Spaceman3750]

What is Velcro 2x2 grade?

I found FO grade for the FDU just fine, they have all 3 https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/cap-single-stripe-flight-officer-senior-grade-cloth-insignia

As far as the tab goes, I'm sure if you call they will produce it for you. They do the embroidery themselves anyways.

[RazorbackPride]

I couldn't find plastic FO for the USAF-style.

And 2x2 is for the fleeces.

[DakRadz]

The dark blue squares for the ABU fleece, I believe.

Razorback- In another thread, someone related that V will be stocking dark blue velcro square insignia (the only thing authorized for ABU) by fall. You can't wear ultramarine anything on ABU items anywho.

1st Lt Raduenz

[Spaceman3750]

I couldn't find plastic FO for the USAF-style.

Duh, sorry, my bad.

I would still call VG.

[RazorbackPride]

The dark blue squares for the ABU fleece, I believe.

Razorback- In another thread, someone related that V will be stocking dark blue velcro square insignia (the only thing authorized for ABU) by fall. You can't wear ultramarine anything on ABU items anywho.

1st Lt Raduenz

Yeah, but ultramarine should have been in stock for a while now for the corporate black fleece, right?

[Eclipse]

Yeah, but ultramarine should have been in stock for a while now for the corporate black fleece, right?

VG has never produced these - members simply sewed their own using standard cloth grade.

[RazorbackPride]

Oh. So they aren't required to produce our whole line of accouterments?

And why do people say a navy blue version will be produced in a few months?

[LSThiker]

IRC, there are no plastic encased FO-SFO grade insignia.  The plastic encased starts at 2d Lt.  Also, the 2x2 grade is a new development that VG will begin stocking with the new insignia.  They will not be supporting the ultramarine blue any more. 

[RazorbackPride]

So does that mean FO's can't wear a USAF flight suit since grade insignia is required?

[dwb]

CAPM 39-1 shows plastic encased flight officer insignia (pg. 126).

Take the advice in this thread and just call Vanguard. They're very helpful people.

[RazorbackPride]

Will do, thanks.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So does that mean FO's can't wear a USAF flight suit since grade insignia is required?

What grade is on your CAPID?

[RazorbackPride]

None

[SarDragon]

None

Then that's what you can wear on your zoom bag.

[Abby.L]

None

Then that's what you can wear on your zoom bag.

Then on that note, why would he wear anything on his other uniforms? Just because NHQ doesn't track TFO promotions, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[SarDragon]

Because grade insignia are available for the other uniforms.

I haven't seen FO bag grade available in a long time. There just isn't a lot of demand for it. Sure, it would be great if the Big V had it, but it's not real big on their radar.

[Sapper168]

CAPM 39-1 shows plastic encased flight officer insignia (pg. 126).

Take the advice in this thread and just call Vanguard. They're very helpful people.

Actually page 126 of CAPM 39-1 shows Officer mess dress shoulder boards.   Its page 125 and it doesn't actually show a picture but a graphic.  I have never seen plastic encased FO,TFO, SFO grades available from Vanguard in my 6 years tenure.

[dwb]

It's on Page 126 in the latest version. https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

You probably have an older PDF that doesn't have one of the more recent ICLs jammed into the front.

But yeah, this is all just picking nits.

FWIW, I've never seen plastic flight officer insignia either, and I've been in a lot longer than six years. I'm just saying it's in 39-1, so he can probably make his case with Vanguard to produce it if they don't already.

[RazorbackPride]

I'm all for less devices if that's an option.

[RazorbackPride]

Okay, so VG got back to me saying they just don't make plastic encased or parka slides for FO's which is fine because I'm saving money.

This means they're not required to make all CAP insignia then, right?

[Eclipse]

This means they're not required to make all CAP insignia then, right?

No, it just means they don't make all CAP insignia.  You'd have to review the licensing and manufacturing agreements to determine
what they are actually "required" to do.

[RazorbackPride]

Well far be it from me to rock the CAP-VG boat as a lowly FO. I actually think the uniform looks nicer without extra flashies.

[Eclipse]

Is wearing uniform combos that have the proper insignia not an option?

Dark blue flight suit, M65, Woodland or dark blue field uniform.

[SMWOG]

So what does one do if they are a FO?

[Eclipse]

Wear one of the 85 combos that has the insignia.

[RazorbackPride]

So you buy a FDU as a SMWOG and then need to buy corporates. I think you're right, but it puts a sour taste in my mouth.

[Eclipse]

Why the need to "re-buy"? 

Just wear the uniform you buy with the insignia available.

[Slim]

I dunno...

TPTB have always explained to the unwashed masses (us lowly members) that the reason we have to buy all of our insignia from VG was so that purchasing the high volume items (like name and CAP tapes that are available cheaper and of much better quality elsewhere) was to offset the cost of VG having to manufacture and stock much lower volume items like the infamous master CDI badge.

In my squadron, I have zero master character development instructors and two flight officers. 

[RazorbackPride]

I don't think they care, it's hard to argue with, "We don't make them."

[JC004]

The thing is, they don't sell pre-sewn collar insignia, pre-sewn wings (except aircrew), etc..... They sell the unfinished item and you have to make the finished thing.

Problem is Velcro is hard to work with in a sewing machine, the insignia JUUUUUUST barely cuts it on size (so if you trim it, you might have to start over), etc.  It would be easier for members if they offered it.

That said...they do NOT sell the blank material that's required to make squares for cadet enlisted and senior enlisted.  They should have been doing this since the uniform manual was published. 

I made the blank squares, but was not able to source the material from Vanguard:




CAP is SWITCHING to dark blue insignia for everything, required in 5 years.  So you might as well get it for the black fleece too.  Just remember, all must match -- so if it's ultramarine on your cap and such, better switch that to dark blue.

Plus, dark blue looks MUCH, MUCH better on the black fleece:

[Eclipse]

The thing is, they don't sell pre-sewn collar insignia, pre-sewn wings (except aircrew),

And these are done incorrectly (at least the ultramarine ones are).

[JC004]

The thing is, they don't sell pre-sewn collar insignia, pre-sewn wings (except aircrew),

And these are done incorrectly (at least the ultramarine ones are).

Correct.  I had to invest a ton of work in UN-SEWING these things for people.

So technically, they do offer the squares for flight officers.  They don't offer them for cadet enlisted OR senior enlisted (both require the same thing).

They are very easy to mess up, though.  It is not as easy as sewing to a uniform directly, and there's almost no margin for error on the size of the fabric they provide (just over the required 2"x2").

Now on the matter of plastic-encased flight officer insignia....that appears to be a Vanguard failure.  That said, they have NEVER sold them.  CAPMart and the Bookstore did not sell them.  I had some TFO, but that was not through official channels.

You CAN wear the blue flight suits and attach the blue cloth flight officer insignia...

[RazorbackPride]

I know, it's still a bummer to buy a green one and not be able to wear it. Yeah, it's just an ugly piece of clothing, but I appreciate the privilege of wearing the USAF uniform and think it's silly that VG won't make them probably because no one else can.

[Eclipse]

You could probably get some one-offs made at your local mall kiosk with an embroidery machine.

[JC004]

The contract with Vanguard does not have anything to do with who can finish or sew your insignia. 

In fact, you're better off without Vanguard.  You could end up with this:

"Good enough.  Just sew right through it."  "But shouldn't I at least adjust to the correct tension?"  "Na."

All you need is the blank parka tab and a flight officer insignia, plus flight officer and Velcro square.  You can pay anyone with the skill to get 1/16" accuracy and the ability to sew something more complex, like Velcro. 
https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/copy-of-civil-air-patrol-gortex-jacket-tab-non-commissioned-officers
https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/cap-senior-grade-cloth-insignia-flight-officer-single-stripe-new-insignia

I pre-shrink the hell out of all insignia BEFORE it gets folded.  You don't even need that for these particular insignia, since they don't go through a washing machine.  Just what I mentioned above.  I do recommend the industrial strength Velcro (but not the stuff advertised with the fire extinguisher).

I did a bunch of testing on this stuff before I went into the hospital, to determine the best ways to accomplish the sewing.

[Damron]

I would be more tolerant of missing embroidered grade than this creative approach. 

[JC004]

I would be more tolerant of missing embroidered grade than this creative approach.

This is the regulation approach, which is why I was testing the issue of material thickness.  It is how senior and cadet enlisted both do the fleece, as well as the tab on the Gore-Tex parkas.  It would be pretty silly to require embroidered insignia of the cadet enlisted.

[DakRadz]

I would be more tolerant of missing embroidered grade than this creative approach.

Cadet enlisted do the same thing for the parkas, collars, dress blues... Actually, the regulations require them to have only metal insignia on just about everything. Including this fleece.

1st Lt Raduenz

[Damron]

I meant for FO's. 

If regulation calls for embroidered grade for FO, I think I would prefer omission on the black fleece.

[JC004]

I'm pretty sure this would be a non-issue for flight officers, since they don't offer the metal insignia....  The insignia is mandatory, and it is embroidered for flight officers.