Honor Guard Rifles

[Eclipse]

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Absolutely, I get it, but that still doesn't make this a good idea.

[indiaXray]

An interesting discussion.  My own experience might offer a different perspective.  In all three of the UK cadet organizations, teenage members were and still are given serviceable rifles to use for ceremonial duties.  Before they are even allowed to touch them, they are given the same rigorous and thorough training that members of HM Forces receive.  I failed mine on my first attempt, and demonstration of skill-at-arms proficiency was required or you were dismissed.  Any child who was tempted to 'dick about' was immediately ejected from the room, as I witnessed more than once.  At least one was dismissed from my unit for taking liberties with something so serious.  I assume those penalties haven't changed.  Ammunition never saw the light of day outside of an MoD-managed firing range and bayonets were banned for safety reasons. I assume those restrictions haven't changed.  There are also many, many health and safety/risk assessment forms to be filled out for the adult volunteers prior to any activity involving rifles.  The end result, was me 'marching up and down the square' with in essence a 9.5 pound rifle-shaped paperweight.  Personally, I was awed, terrified, and humbled when someone handed me a rifle, but that was just me

I will concede that the ease-of-obtainability of ammunition within the United States makes skill-at-arms with servicable rifles a prohibitively dangerous activity for the Civil Air Patrol today.

[calebtornado12]

In response to Eclipse, I feel the same way, these aren't my cadets, this is another squadron in my wing. The main reason it worried me is because I also had to help them pretty much redo their entire routine because they had been following Army drill and ceremonies instead of the AFMAN 36-2203, which made me feel like they didn't actually know what they were doing.

[SarDragon]

In my days of wrestling '03s, we had practice bayonets, and performance bayonets. The former were as-issued - sharp and regular finish. The latter had the edges ground down, because the chrome didn't work well there, and they were polished and chromed.

The practice units could, and did, produce injuries that would bleed - cuts, slices, etc. The performance units only ever managed to produce bruises, because they weren't sharp enough to do anything else. There was one bleeding injury, where a guy got whacked in the jaw, but that was really no different that getting whacked by any other similar weight metal object.

tl;dr - if you dull the edges, you're dealing with the possibility of blunt force injuries, and not puncture or laceration injuries.

All that said, I think bayonets are overkill for CAP use. They add weight and awkwardness to an already heavy and awkward item.

[NIN]

The end result, was me 'marching up and down the square' with in essence a 9.5 pound rifle-shaped paperweight.  Personally, I was awed, terrified, and humbled when someone handed me a rifle, but that was just me

"Marching up and down the square not good enough for you, eh?!"
LOL.

I will concede that the ease-of-obtainability of ammunition within the United States makes skill-at-arms with servicable rifles a prohibitively dangerous activity for the Civil Air Patrol today.

I don't know about the UK, but when you were handed an L98, did you drill with it?  If so, did the armorer disable it prior to using it for drill & ceremonies purposes?

Or did you drill with L103A2 Drill Purpose rifles? Which, of course, are not serviceable rifles.

As we've already established, CAP uses the terms "deactivated" or "facsimile" firearms as opposed to "not serviceable" or similar.

Facsimile, of course, its basically "Something made to look like a rifle," probably for economical and ceremonial purposes. A rifle-shaped paperweight.

Deactivated meaning incapable of chambering or firing ammunition.  So, you know, a rifle-shaped paperweight.

Whether ammunition is easy to come by or not is not a factor.  Its deactivated. Whether by plugging the barrel or removing the firing mechanism.

[NIN]

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Absolutely, I get it, but that still doesn't make this a good idea.

Then every CAP activity needs an armored and alarmed keybox and all vehicle keys have to be maintained in there.

Just in case.  Because, per that logic, thats a Good Idea™

And woe be the kid who brings an extra set of keys. He *might* go joy riding!

*sigh*

When does the arms race stop? 

There is a logical conclusion (where events and activities beyond which are considered VERY low probability) and then an illogical conclusion (where we can "what if" this until we come up with the most unworkable and fantastical set of circumstances known to man..)

Most of what is discussed is approaching the latter at this point.

[SarDragon]

Gee, this sounds like a great time to inject an ORM matrix. 

[Eclipse]

When does the arms race stop? 

Generally about ten minutes after the bleeding stops.

There's no way to bubble-wrap our people, especially cadets, and we do, occasionally, ask them to do things
with higher risk then the average day-to-day experience,  - I mean heck, how do you account for cadets
falling off tables, or leaving them-shaped holes in walls during encampments?
(Pro Tip: Supervision, which was lacking in both cases).  No matter how much we try, our members are very
creative in regards to hurting themselves.

But this gets back to the idea using ORM in "always-on" mode and dialing down the "it's cooler factor".

The bayonets, obviously, are a non-starter, how that's even considered, let alone allowed, is beyond me,
but in the choice between a 2-lb plastic facsimile and a 12 pound "deactivated" weapon (which if nothing
else makes a nice baseball bat) the plastic should win every time, and whomever is making the "use these"
decision needs to consider both the situation and the optics.

No, it is not likely that these will ever fire again, nor cause any issue beyond tired arms, but for my money, it's just one more place
I wouldn't need to be "concerned", and my already divided attention could be more focused elsewhere.

For the record, a lot of activities do use key-control and other measures in regards to COVs, and the safety issue,
after several serious mishaps, is why ATVs and gators aren't supposed to be allowed in CAP functions except
wing or higher activities with explicit permission (something increasingly ignored as we get distance from the aging directive).

[NIN]

When does the arms race stop? 

Generally about ten minutes after the bleeding stops.

As a guy who participates in a sport where most (all?) of the safety rules are written in blood, I get this.

There's no way to bubble-wrap our people, especially cadets, and we do, occasionally, ask them to do things
with higher risk then the average day-to-day experience,  - I mean heck, how do you account for cadets
falling off tables, or leaving them-shaped holes in walls during encampments?
(Pro Tip: Supervision, which was lacking in both cases).  No matter how much we try, our members are very
creative in regards to hurting themselves.

Like we say in skydiving "We keep finding ways to make the sport safer, and people keep finding more creative ways to kill themselves."

I've been there in more than one organization: left to their own devices, cadets will find incredibly creative ways to test the limits of both physics and the officer's patience, generally (always?) to their detriment.  In my experience in the USAC, tactical level adult supervision was always in short supply, and 15-20 minutes out of sight of an officer or adult NCO was about the limit before you were going to wind up delivering desk-mounted knifehands, IPT, or counseling statements all around.  I get it, sure.  "Cadet, I don't even get to hit the latrine without you people getting a case of the stupids?"

But this gets back to the idea using ORM in "always-on" mode and dialing down the "it's cooler factor".

The bayonets, obviously, are a non-starter, how that's even considered, let alone allowed, is beyond me,
but in the choice between a 2-lb plastic facsimile and a 12 pound "deactivated" weapon (which if nothing
else makes a nice baseball bat) the plastic should win every time, and whomever is making the "use these"
decision needs to consider both the situation and the optics.

There's that word again. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

from > 3 ft, a Drill America M-1 and a Springfield Armory M-1 are the same thing..  So much for "optics."  From 50 ft, that "taped up wooden shape we use to practice with" is an "assault rifle." 

I don't disagree that the plastic Drill Americas are just as good. Heck, from a "dealing with a legit but deactivated firearm" or "dealing with a plastic simulacrum" standpoint, the DAs win, too. Nobody ever said "Now I have to worry about my plastic firearm being used to shoot someone cuz it got stolen out of the back of the CAP van.."

We have 2 in my unit, even. They're great (and still "tired arms" heavy!)

You're right, there's no need to use deactivated when there's alternatives, but certainly deactivated is *allowed*.  Are there alternatives? Yes. Should you lean towards those? Yes.

Again, at a certain point, deactivated, filled-plugged, whatever, its still just a 8-9 lb baseball bat / flying object. The higher probability of "problems" is not from "Cadet Timmy somehow produced a firing pin for an M-1 Garand, somehow managed to install it in the deactivated firearm using a paperclip and chewing gum, then proceeded to somehow obtain ammunition, laying waste to the spectators along the parade route," but more likely "Cadet Timmy flipped rifle into Cadet Sally's head" or "Cadet Tommy dropped buttstock of rifle on foot, fracturing ring and pinky toes."

For the record, a lot of activities do use key-control and other measures in regards to COVs, and the safety issue,
after several serious mishaps, is why ATVs and gators aren't supposed to be allowed in CAP functions except
wing or higher activities with explicit permission (something increasingly ignored as we get distance from the aging directive).

Great redirect here.

What I meant, and you know I meant, is that if we apply this same level of convoluted edge logic to other circumstances in the organization we'd have to go to unwieldy lengths because of a perceived edge case. "We need to bring a Class 3 safe to put the COV keys in to keep them away from the cadets."  Right now, in most places, we literally leave the keys to the COVs in the unlocked keybox (or hung on the cuphooks behind the Transportation Officer's door) because its too big of a pain to have to constantly lock and unlock the box everytime SM Smith has to run the COV to the water point.

But what if Cadet Timmy somehow obtains the keys and somehow escapes supervision and somehow manages to drive off in a COV?  Thats yet another distraction you better start worrying about, right?

"We've decided we can't let cadets ride in the front seat, or in the first row of seats, in the 12 passenger vans because there is a remote but non-zero possibility that one of them will flip out and grab the wheel, causing the van to careen into a school bus full of nuns!"

Where does the logic exercise exercise in finding the remotest possibility of the least possible circumstance end?

"Hypothetically, Cadet Bergman was unhappy that his fellow squadron mates made fun of him for refusing to wear the Lindbergh Ribbon, so he decided he'd have the last laugh while the squadron van was driving across Hudson River..."   

(there is a term for finding the most minute of the most minute of the tiniest chance of the least possible circumstance that  won't happen in a million years, and I don't recall what it is, but I'm pretty sure CAP-Talk knows *exactly* what it is.)

[Mitchell 1969]

A few years ago I was active as a volunteer with the National Park Service at Fort Hancock. The organization I worked for was restoring Battery Gunnison to what it looked like during 1943. We wore the Army uniform of that era, and carried weapons. Some of us, myself included, did not have licenses. The commander owned several 1903 Springfields, and we used them. Of course we had bolts with the firing pin removed. Barrels were not plugged, and we could insert live ammo. We used blank rounds, that is, one of the members took shells, punched holes in them, and put the bullets in it. The firing pin could be attached to the bolt, reinserted, and the rifle could be fired. This organization had been working for 4 or 5 years, made considerable investments in the battery. Among it, a new complete electrical installation duplicating that of 1943, a working fire control telephone switchboard with about 15 working 1940 telephones, and other items.

National Park Police objected to those of us with no licenses carrying those weapons. The Springfield owner had to buy bolts, file off the part where the firing pin sat, and paint part of the bolt red.

That is what "deactivated" meant to the National Park Police.

More likely it was the definition made up by somebody at one unit of the Park Police during that slice of time. Which isn't even the least bit related to CAP.

On another note - I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what sort of "license" was required to carry a M-1.

[Mitchell 1969]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

Indeed they will.

I just watched a 5:45 long video on how to disassemble & reassemble the bolt on an M-1.  My takeaway (something I didn't know before):  You actually need tools to put the firing pin into the bolt of an M-1.  (my experience is with the M-16A1 musket, which I could have broken down into its component parts in about a minute with no tools, and probably could put the firing pin into while actually marching in a parade), so I learned something new today.

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Matter of fact, replace "firing pin" with "keys" and "rifle" with "Air Force vehicle" and I can tell you a 34 year old story about 15 year old C/SSgt careening around the ramp of an Air National Guard base in the middle of the night in a Follow Me truck.

And thats not hyperbole.

Back when JROTC was a recruiting stream and had actual military weapons issued, the standard weapon was the M-1. We had 03's for drill team practice, as they tended to get battered when learning new routines. Platoon leaders, Company XOs and Company First Sergeants had M-1 Carbines. Company Commanders and Bn staff had, believe it or not, .45s. I actually got to carry my .45 twice - they were a bit nervous about 17 and 18 year olds with them, but the rifles were drawn from the armory on campus at least twice a week.

The firing pins were all in a safe. Under Army regulation, state law and local ordinance, that made the firearms "deactivated." The firing pins were retained in case the army called the weapons back (which eventually happened).

The question was asked (I know, because I asked it) about the possibility of simply getting a firing pin. That earned me a lesson on how to do it. It was a pain. In fact, our NCO instructor said "If they call these weapons back, I'll probably trip down the stairs or fall down from a ladder. Somebody else can replace those things while I'm in the hospital. I'm not doing it."

Nobody there had any memories of anybody ever inserting a firing pin into any of them, going back to the 50's.

[TheSkyHornet]

All of this dialogue is exactly why we need to constantly teach cadets, as well as senior members, to treat any firearm (whether deactivated or facsimile) like a real weapon. It is never to be pointed at someone. Muzzle awareness must be maintained at all times. Before "playing" with it, check the chamber and make sure it's clear (even if it's a fake weapon).

I had cadets practicing rifle drill one day and saw one of them with his chin resting on his hands cupping the muzzle. I gave a little speech on how bad habits get created when screwing around during pretend time, and what's going to happen is you'll forget that the real gun you come across someday isn't fake, and it's going to go off.

You need to instill repetition on safety protocols.

[NIN]

All of this dialogue is exactly why we need to constantly teach cadets, as well as senior members, to treat any firearm (whether deactivated or facsimile) like a real weapon. It is never to be pointed at someone. Muzzle awareness must be maintained at all times. Before "playing" with it, check the chamber and make sure it's clear (even if it's a fake weapon).

I had cadets practicing rifle drill one day and saw one of them with his chin resting on his hands cupping the muzzle. I gave a little speech on how bad habits get created when screwing around during pretend time, and what's going to happen is you'll forget that the real gun you come across someday isn't fake, and it's going to go off.

You need to instill repetition on safety protocols.

I spent 7 years in the Army Cadets, and our "ranger school" advanced program usually had the "rubber duck" M-4s. They carried those things day in and day out, maintained security on them while at chow, and were constantly on the watch for muzzle & handling discipline, did the clearing barrel at the DFAC, etc, just like real weapons.  It only took about a day and a half with those things, and they were *really* attuned to making sure they handled them correctly. 

During AT in 2012, I took a number of the Ranger course cadets to a funeral for a retired USAR Lt Col where we were asked to provide a pallbearers, a firing detail and taps. My NCOIC, SFC Sullivan, was also the ranger course instructor and he handled the "detail" aspect: the pallbearers, flag folding, firing detail, etc.  At one point, while practicing with the actual operable blank firing (non-rubber duck) weapons we were going to be using, one of the firing party cadets was careless with the muzzle.  No question, no argument: We had a new cadet on the firing party inside of 10 minutes. Sure, we had to re-practice the entire sequence another 10-12 times, but there is an absolute reason for that level of safe handling.   I didn't question it one iota: "Its your show, Sergeant. I'm here to do the part on the behalf of the president and a grateful nation. You have the 'detail' , and if you say its this way, then thats the way it is."

[Eclipse]

Noticed this today in relation to the HG cord thread:

CAPM 39-1 Page 104

"9.6.1.3. Bayonets, swords, or sabers will not be used under any circumstances."

The same prohibition can be found in CAPP 52-8 on Page 6.