Honor Guard Rifles

[calebtornado12]

Thanks everyone. Thought I'd mention something interesting I witnessed a while ago. I was helping out with O-Flights one day by flight marshaling, getting pictures, video, etc. Our planes are held by another squadron in our wing since they have hangars space. Apparently during this day, they had their squadron color guard practice. the rifles they used though are actual rifles that they simply took the bolts out of. I know the reg says that we cant use functioning rifles, but i mean, the only thing missing from these where the bolt pins that fired them. Is that something that needs to be addressed, or hypothetically, could that be another option? 

[Eclipse]

This is someone's "good idea", and I'd be willing to bet a Venti with an extra shot those
bolts are "around".

That's not a good choice for 10 reasons, the first two being regs and weight, not to mention common sense.

[calebtornado12]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise.... 

[Eclipse]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise....

If the only thing missing is the firing pins, they are in violation of 52-16, 2-9a:

"a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor
guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the
firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition."

[Holding Pattern]

Yup, this is generally accomplished with a filled barrel if you are trying to keep the weapon looking good.

[arajca]

Well so, I think i described these a bit wrong... the have working bolts, the pin inside in the only thing that is missing.... I was a bit confused when i saw them because they are in fact, very very heavy, but from what i know, a cadet in in charge of all of it, SM are just there to supervise....

If the only thing missing is the firing pins, they are in violation of 52-16, 2-9a:

"a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor
guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the
firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition."

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

I would consider using those rifles to be in violation.

[Eclipse]

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

I suppose, at least from the legalistic side.

Ask yourself this...

Is it out of the realm of possibility that a cadet would obtain live ammo for them and insert it to be cool?

Would you want your cadets walking around with a live bullet in a gun that "can't fire"?

He didn't say what kind of rifles these are, but could they be slam fired or go off if loaded and dropped?

If I were a cadet and had access to rifles that could cycle dummy loads, that would be very cool.  Even if you
can't actually shoot, that would make things like a ceremonial squad very cool.

With that said, there are videos on the web shooting pellets with Hilti .22 cartridges - there is no end to mayhem when
boredom and bandwidth meet.

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

That's my take, as I said, I'd bet those parts aren't far out of reach because RED DAWN!

[NIN]

Geez, guys, take this one to the nth degree much?

The regulation states "A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon."

Filling the barrel/chamber or removing the firing pin will do either.  So will a number of other things, depending on the weapon: removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier group, removal of the entire trigger assembly, etc.

"But ... what if the enterprising cadet came with his OWN bolt-carrier assembly??"

Give it a rest.  You can drill with deactivated firearms.  If people are smart about what they are doing, and what they are teaching, it won't be a problem.

About 25 years ago, the Memorial Day right after the Gulf War I, I got asked if CAP could do a thing at a local parade.  The parade organizers then specifically asked if we could do a firing party with a rifle salute at the cemetery at the end of the parade rout.

"Whoa. Yeah, no can do there, sorry.  CAP can't do rifle salutes like that."

Apparently the local Legion or VFW couldn't put enough guys together to do a 7-man firing detail, and they thought, you know, since CAP was marching, why not?

I did come up with a slightly better idea: I arranged for some CAP folks I knew who were also dual-hatted (Army National Guard, Air Guard, Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve) to show up that day, all of us in our "other" uniforms.   The VFW guy met us with the M1s before the parade, and we spent about 20 minutes going over the manual of arms for our friends in the Air Guard (even the Navy guy knew the manual of arms).  Port, right-shoulder, etc. 

We practiced the firing line 4-5 times, and as we were talking about getting over to the cemetery before the parade stepped off, the parade organizer had a great idea: "Hey! How about you guys march there with the rest of the parade?"  Everybody but the blue-suiters thought that was a swell idea.  Midway thru the parade, my Air Guard comrades were complaining (loudly) about how heavy an M-1 was compared to an M-16 (~7lbs vs ~9.5lbs) and their arms were getting tired.

We managed to get to the park without a dropped rifle, and executed the rifle salute with adequate precision. Nobody was going to mistake us for the Old Guard.

[TheSkyHornet]

To the Col's point---

Remove the firing pin. There. All fixed. Nobody in the vicinity can load a round into that rifle and fire it at will or by accident. It is, by definition, deactivated. You're not ruining the rifle. You can always take that same rifle back into possession and put the firing pin back in to make it serviceable--reactivated.

Use common sense. Anyone arguing "someone can put the firing pin back in" is making the same argument as "someone can change out the barrel and make it a serviceable weapon." It's the EXACT same argument.

[SarDragon]

Actually, reading past the bold section it also says "or the firing of a weapon". No firing pin means the weapon won't fire.

I suppose, at least from the legalistic side.

Ask yourself this...

Is it out of the realm of possibility that a cadet would obtain live ammo for them and insert it to be cool?

Certainly possible. Likely? Who knows?

Would you want your cadets walking around with a live bullet in a gun that "can't fire"?

He didn't say what kind of rifles these are, but could they be slam fired or go off if loaded and dropped?

That's definite no for the Springfield '03. The firing mechanism unscrews from the back of the bolt, and once the firing pin is ground off, it it disabled. There's nothing left to strike the primer in the cartridge.

If I were a cadet and had access to rifles that could cycle dummy loads, that would be very cool.  Even if you
can't actually shoot, that would make things like a ceremonial squad very cool.

With that said, there are videos on the web shooting pellets with Hilti .22 cartridges - there is no end to mayhem when
boredom and bandwidth meet.

If you can insert the firing pin, how are you preventing an enterprising cadet, or someone else for that matter, to insert the pin and messing with it?

That's my take, as I said, I'd bet those parts aren't far out of reach because RED DAWN!

As stated above, it's not just one part involved. If the actual firing pin is ground off (the easiest method), the weapon is disabled. Most of the drill '03s I've used have been disabled in this fashion, and there have never been problems or questions on usability issues.

[Eclipse]

Use common sense. Anyone arguing "someone can put the firing pin back in" is making the same argument as "someone can change out the barrel and make it a serviceable weapon." It's the EXACT same argument.

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

[NIN]

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

"Cadet attempted to insert ammunition into the chamber of the deactivated firearm.  The barrel was plugged, but the chamber would still accept ammunition.  The firing pin, however, was not removed."

[Luis R. Ramos]

A few years ago I was active as a volunteer with the National Park Service at Fort Hancock. The organization I worked for was restoring Battery Gunnison to what it looked like during 1943. We wore the Army uniform of that era, and carried weapons. Some of us, myself included, did not have licenses. The commander owned several 1903 Springfields, and we used them. Of course we had bolts with the firing pin removed. Barrels were not plugged, and we could insert live ammo. We used blank rounds, that is, one of the members took shells, punched holes in them, and put the bullets in it. The firing pin could be attached to the bolt, reinserted, and the rifle could be fired. This organization had been working for 4 or 5 years, made considerable investments in the battery. Among it, a new complete electrical installation duplicating that of 1943, a working fire control telephone switchboard with about 15 working 1940 telephones, and other items.

National Park Police objected to those of us with no licenses carrying those weapons. The Springfield owner had to buy bolts, file off the part where the firing pin sat, and paint part of the bolt red.

That is what "deactivated" meant to the National Park Police.

[Eclipse]

Same argument, different effort.

Anything which could be made to fire with so little effort should not be in the hands of cadets for ceremonial use.

Imagine the 78 on this.

"Cadet attempted to insert ammunition into the chamber of the deactivated firearm.  The barrel was plugged, but the chamber would still accept ammunition.  The firing pin, however, was not removed."

Firearm exploded, blinding Cadet 1 in right eye, who also lost two fingers on right hand.  Cadet 2 lost 50% hearing in left ear.

Why would we allow anything but plastic again?

[NIN]

Here's a sad fact:

We've just argued left and right about the hypothetical possibility of some trooper bringing his own firing pin AND ammunition for an M-1 Garand and *somehow* putting both in the firearm, while nobody is watching, and becoming a hazard.

While at the same time, there are people who would have no problem when some cadet randomly shows up to a ES activity or bivouac with a K-bar rigged upside down on his LCE, or with a machete jammed in his rucksack "for clearing brush."

I've seen *FAR* more *ACTUAL* problems with cadets and big pig-stickers than I've *EVER* seen with cadets and deactivated firearms.

BITD (it was, that year, a Thursday), the old USAF survival knife was a "standard" for GT & field purposes. Pretty much everybody had one, and they were considered the "acceptable" sheath knife for that purpose.


Like this handsome devil is sporting on his right hip.

But someone always showed up with a gigantic Rambo knife rigged like this:


(either a K-Bar, or a legit Randall Rambo knife, like this)


You'd tell the guy "You're gonna be going thru the brush and something is going to hit that snap, and that knife will do a 180 on the way down and go right thru your boot" and he'd poo-pooh you, as would others. And then, via the radio, "Ahhh, we need a medic on the compass course.."

But nobody even batted an *eye* at someone with a gigantic knife or machete.

WIWAC, I didn't even know where I could obtain a firing pin and ammo for an M-1 Garand, let alone how to actually install it and then chamber ammo. Besides, why would I?  It was pretty clear that the rifle was for ceremonial, not tactical, purposes.

Plus, the few times I'd been around a "deactivated firearm" for the purposes of color guard, etc, we were heavily supervised.  What would someone do, find a way mid-parade to slip the firing pin into the rifle and put some ammo in it?  Right.

I'd be more worried about the cadet dropping a 9 lb hunk of wood and metal on his foot, or getting a buttstock upside the head, deactivated or facsimile, than I would *ever* be worried about someone making a deactivated firearm a non-deactivated firearm and then putting live ammo in it.

Bigger potential CAPF 78 safety concern than cadets attempting to make deactivated firearms non-deactivated:

Bayonets. Sharpened or not.

"Geez, Mrs. Smith, its a good thing those are just unsharpened ceremonial bayonets, or we'd have had to use an ice chest to put Timmy's fingers in for the ride to the hospital."

[calebtornado12]

For those who are still interested, these are M14 rifles (yes they have the ability to attach bayonets to them).

[Eclipse]

To NIN's last post - when you have to start pulling out the Kodachrome slides, they aren't really "current events", but regardless,
I can't disagree - seen that nonsense myself, I can only reply "not on my watch".

As to "heavily supervised", sure, during the parades and related.  We've seen in messages here that cadets practice on their own -
that's when the fun starts, be it bayonets or "dudes, I found the firing pins, let's check Youtube and see if these things well shoot!"

There are things that are preventable and foreseeable, and things which are legit accidents.

Of course in this case we're discussing a 3rd-hand account of what those may or may not actually be capable of, nothing against
Cadet Bryant, that's just the reality here.

[Luis R. Ramos]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

[NIN]

The info on the firing pins is available as well in old Army technical and field manuals as well in the internet.

Although I would agree with Eclipse that today's teenagers will go to Youtube first...

Indeed they will.

I just watched a 5:45 long video on how to disassemble & reassemble the bolt on an M-1.  My takeaway (something I didn't know before):  You actually need tools to put the firing pin into the bolt of an M-1.  (my experience is with the M-16A1 musket, which I could have broken down into its component parts in about a minute with no tools, and probably could put the firing pin into while actually marching in a parade), so I learned something new today.

No offense, Bob, but you could replace "firing pins" with "keys" and "rifles" with "COV parked behind the building" and I'm reasonably certain that is more likely to happen.

Matter of fact, replace "firing pin" with "keys" and "rifle" with "Air Force vehicle" and I can tell you a 34 year old story about 15 year old C/SSgt careening around the ramp of an Air National Guard base in the middle of the night in a Follow Me truck.

And thats not hyperbole.