Hat/Cap/Cover/Headgear?

[Garibaldi]

+1.

Spam and I, as already mentioned in numerous other threads, are out of H/w to wear the AF style. Heck, I've even put on enough weight that my brand-new tac trousers don't fit right. I have the aviator shirt with all my stuff on it and that's fine. Debuting it next Wednesday.

If I can't wear my CAP ribbons and badges and ranks on it, what would be the friggin' point?

[Toad1168]

To say that ribbons and grade should not be allowed on the Corporate Uniform is a place I think that you seriously do not want to go.

How about this, if you can't or don't wear the AF uniform you don't hold a grade at all, and CAP does not want you. That is about what you are saying Toad.

I do not wear the AF uniform, that does not lessen my commitment to the program at all. In my most humble opinion, I say leave the AF uniform to the Cadets, the rest of us all wear Corporate and BBDU/CFU.

There is way to much among the Senior Member/Officers in the attitude that those that wear the Af, usually poorly, are somehow better than the rest. If Senior Member/Officers would only put as much care and emphasis on the Mission, CAP would be a much better place.

My point is more of the distinction between corporate and USAF style uniforms.  Yes a great number of SMs wear those incorrectly.  Hence the days when we had to wear the maroon sleeves, if you remember that.  Many arguments have been made about the corporate vs USAF style uniform that do not need to be rehashed here.  If a military uniform is what the member wants to wear, then wear that one.   If the corporate style is what is desired, then wear that. 

The statement about SMs just wearing the corporate style is valid.  But my issue is that may of those are worn poorly as well standing shoulder to shoulder with members in the USAF style.  Same configuration, just different shirt and pants.  It goes to the overall professional image that we wish to portray and unfortunately most people don't distinguish between the uniforms.  They only see one thing, the whole of CAP.

Ribbons and badges are optional on the G/Ws.

For those who cannot wear AF uniforms, you'd ultimately eliminate even the ability to wear those ribbons/badges. We already have way too many people wear the AF uniforms outside of H/W regs, and this would make it even worse. Just what part of a properly worn G/W uniform doesn't look right to you? Because I've seen plenty of members in AF uniforms look worse than those in the corporates.

If properly worn, I have absolutely no problem.  And that statement applies to both AF and corporate.  Unfortunately, we are too lax on the proper wear of uniforms.  Way too many members fail to realize that a uniform is not just another version of their own clothes.  It is incumbent on all of us to ensure proper uniform wear regardless of which combo is worn.  It affects the overall perception of the organization in terms of professionalism and even mission competency.

I have heard the argument that it shouldn't matter how the person looks as long as they are mission focused.  While this is true in theory, it is not in reality.  As a former cop, I wore a uniform every day for 17 years.  It is a fact that people make a decision about your professionalism and competency to do your job based on appearance.  Its an established fact that certain cops have been assaulted and others not based on their appearance in uniform, down to the appearance of their shoes.  What does this have to do with CAP?  Look sharp and be sharp.

My original comment about the removal of the grade and ribbons is based more on the appearance of the uniform.  You can put a tuxedo on a pig and it still looks like a pig.

[arajca]

To say that ribbons and grade should not be allowed on the Corporate Uniform is a place I think that you seriously do not want to go.

How about this, if you can't or don't wear the AF uniform you don't hold a grade at all, and CAP does not want you. That is about what you are saying Toad.

I do not wear the AF uniform, that does not lessen my commitment to the program at all. In my most humble opinion, I say leave the AF uniform to the Cadets, the rest of us all wear Corporate and BBDU/CFU.

There is way to much among the Senior Member/Officers in the attitude that those that wear the Af, usually poorly, are somehow better than the rest. If Senior Member/Officers would only put as much care and emphasis on the Mission, CAP would be a much better place.

My point is more of the distinction between corporate and USAF style uniforms.  Yes a great number of SMs wear those incorrectly.  Hence the days when we had to wear the maroon sleeves, if you remember that.  Many arguments have been made about the corporate vs USAF style uniform that do not need to be rehashed here.  If a military uniform is what the member wants to wear, then wear that one.   If the corporate style is what is desired, then wear that. 

The statement about SMs just wearing the corporate style is valid.  But my issue is that may of those are worn poorly as well standing shoulder to shoulder with members in the USAF style.  Same configuration, just different shirt and pants.  It goes to the overall professional image that we wish to portray and unfortunately most people don't distinguish between the uniforms.  They only see one thing, the whole of CAP.

Ribbons and badges are optional on the G/Ws.

For those who cannot wear AF uniforms, you'd ultimately eliminate even the ability to wear those ribbons/badges. We already have way too many people wear the AF uniforms outside of H/W regs, and this would make it even worse. Just what part of a properly worn G/W uniform doesn't look right to you? Because I've seen plenty of members in AF uniforms look worse than those in the corporates.

If properly worn, I have absolutely no problem.  And that statement applies to both AF and corporate.  Unfortunately, we are too lax on the proper wear of uniforms.  Way too many members fail to realize that a uniform is not just another version of their own clothes.  It is incumbent on all of us to ensure proper uniform wear regardless of which combo is worn.  It affects the overall perception of the organization in terms of professionalism and even mission competency.

I have heard the argument that it shouldn't matter how the person looks as long as they are mission focused.  While this is true in theory, it is not in reality.  As a former cop, I wore a uniform every day for 17 years.  It is a fact that people make a decision about your professionalism and competency to do your job based on appearance.  Its an established fact that certain cops have been assaulted and others not based on their appearance in uniform, down to the appearance of their shoes.  What does this have to do with CAP?  Look sharp and be sharp.

My original comment about the removal of the grade and ribbons is based more on the appearance of the uniform.  You can put a tuxedo on a pig and it still looks like a pig.

Stop digging.

[CAPDCCMOM]

"..you can put a tuxedo on a pig, but it still looks like  pig"

Wow!!!! You would keep hard working and dedicated individuals from proudly wearing their insignia and decorations, that they have earned just as you have Toad, based on H/W? Nice example of respect for the individual.

I understand what you say about needing sharp uniform wear, and I happen to agree with you. Corporate or AF should be worn properly. What I do not agree with is you thinking I am not worthy of wearing my earned grade or ribbons.

BTW, even if you are a Toad, thank you for your service in law enforcement.

Edited for typo

[Toad1168]

"..you can put a tuxedo on a pig, but it still looks like  pig"

Wow!!!! You would keep hard working and dedicated individuals from proudly wearing their insignia and decorations, that they have earned just as you have Toad, based on H/W? Nice example of respect for the individual.

I understand what you say about needing sharp uniform wear, and I happen to agree with you. Corporate or AF should be worn properly. What I do not agree with is you thinking I am not worthy of wearing my earned grade or ribbons.

BTW, even if you are a Toad, thank you for your service in law enforcement.

Edited for typo

It has nothing to do with H/W, that was never what I said.  It strictly is referencing appearance and how the uniform is worn.  If worn properly, it looks sharp no matter what the body type.  My stance is more on the improper and sloppy wear of any of our uniforms by members.  My pig comment relates to a metaphor.  Picture a pig, wallowing in the mud.  Now you want to dress it up to look pretty.  If you put a tuxedo on it, it still looks like a pig.  Supposed to be funny. 

Again, please do not misconstrue my statements as a commentary of H/W as that is not what was stated or intended.  We all know how the typed word can be misinterpreted.  It was simply a statement of my opinion of the corporate uniform which I have and do wear as well. 

[Chappie]

I usually wear my dark blue NSC ball cap when wearing the polo/gray slacks.

[Mitchell 1969]

IMHO , outdoors, the aviator shirt, grey trouser uniform looks incomplete without cap and the baseball cap looks too informal.

In military etiquette, an officer without a hat or cap outdoors in not fully dressed and should not be saluted. (A no-hat area, like a flight line might be, is almost always also a no-salute area)

Grey "garrison" caps are worn by cadets at military academies like the USMA and Citadel so should be available commercially. Incidentally, the grey color of the caps and the USMA uniforms comes from the New York militia uniforms worn by West Point cadets in the War of 1812. Grey is the traditional militia color and is the the beret patch color for the New York Guard, that state's organized militia.

I, also, believe that the grey/white uniform is incomplete without a cap. (And without a coat, for that matter).

But I disagree with your assertion re military protocol calling for officers without hats/caps to not be saluted. That is the norm in the U.S. sea services and in most commonwealth services, but not in US Army, USAF or, by extension, CAP, where salutes may be rendered or returned covered or uncovered and even in civilian clothes.

[N6RVT]

To say that ribbons and grade should not be allowed on the Corporate Uniform is a place I think that you seriously do not want to go.

How about this, if you can't or don't wear the AF uniform you don't hold a grade at all, and CAP does not want you. That is about what you are saying Toad.

I do not wear the AF uniform, that does not lessen my commitment to the program at all. In my most humble opinion, I say leave the AF uniform to the Cadets, the rest of us all wear Corporate and BBDU/CFU.

There is way to much among the Senior Member/Officers in the attitude that those that wear the Af, usually poorly, are somehow better than the rest. If Senior Member/Officers would only put as much care and emphasis on the Mission, CAP would be a much better place.

My point is more of the distinction between corporate and USAF style uniforms.  Yes a great number of SMs wear those incorrectly.  Hence the days when we had to wear the maroon sleeves, if you remember that.  Many arguments have been made about the corporate vs USAF style uniform that do not need to be rehashed here.  If a military uniform is what the member wants to wear, then wear that one.   If the corporate style is what is desired, then wear that. 

The statement about SMs just wearing the corporate style is valid.  But my issue is that may of those are worn poorly as well standing shoulder to shoulder with members in the USAF style.  Same configuration, just different shirt and pants.  It goes to the overall professional image that we wish to portray and unfortunately most people don't distinguish between the uniforms.  They only see one thing, the whole of CAP.

Ribbons and badges are optional on the G/Ws.

For those who cannot wear AF uniforms, you'd ultimately eliminate even the ability to wear those ribbons/badges. We already have way too many people wear the AF uniforms outside of H/W regs, and this would make it even worse. Just what part of a properly worn G/W uniform doesn't look right to you? Because I've seen plenty of members in AF uniforms look worse than those in the corporates.

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.  Same as with short sleeve Blues they are the only required badge.  In my case I also wear my ground team badge on the white shirt and my Army parachute Wings on the blue.  I wear no ribbons on either one because it's tradition for Air Force officers to leave those off.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Майор Хаткевич]

As of this morning, I'm just 20lbs away from H/W standards. It's been a long road, just about 7 months to lose 42, but I feel the last 20, even if they take just as long, will be easy. But even when I get to that point, somewhere 4.5-5 years into having worn the G/Ws , I still think I'll advocate for those in that uniform, and the missing elements.

[Eclipse]

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.

Incorrect.  All badges on the white aviator shirt are optional.  The only thing required is the nametag and the epaulet sleeves.

CAPM 39-1, Page 61:
"4.2.5.3.3.1. Aviation (CAP only) and Occupational Badges (CAP only). Wear of these is optional. "

As to the ribbons, since they are optional, wear them as you will, but don't propagate a tradition that doesn't apply to CAP.

[grunt82abn]

"..you can put a tuxedo on a pig, but it still looks like  pig"

Wow!!!! You would keep hard working and dedicated individuals from proudly wearing their insignia and decorations, that they have earned just as you have Toad, based on H/W? Nice example of respect for the individual.

I understand what you say about needing sharp uniform wear, and I happen to agree with you. Corporate or AF should be worn properly. What I do not agree with is you thinking I am not worthy of wearing my earned grade or ribbons.

BTW, even if you are a Toad, thank you for your service in law enforcement.

Edited for typo

It has nothing to do with H/W, that was never what I said.  It strictly is referencing appearance and how the uniform is worn.  If worn properly, it looks sharp no matter what the body type.  My stance is more on the improper and sloppy wear of any of our uniforms by members.  My pig comment relates to a metaphor.  Picture a pig, wallowing in the mud.  Now you want to dress it up to look pretty.  If you put a tuxedo on it, it still looks like a pig.  Supposed to be funny. 

Again, please do not misconstrue my statements as a commentary of H/W as that is not what was stated or intended.  We all know how the typed word can be misinterpreted.  It was simply a statement of my opinion of the corporate uniform which I have and do wear as well.

I am not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but I never even thought for a second you were talking about H/W standards. I agree, as a former cop and soldier, that if you look professional, you will act professional, and will be treated as a professional. In my short tenure in CAP so far, I have seen CAP SM, of all shapes and sizes, who have looked really professional, whether in the USAF or Corporate uniform, and have represented CAP in a positive manner. On the flip side, I have seen quite a plethora of SM, while in both uniforms, look like a total scum bum; having little respect for the uniform they are wearing or who they are representing. I often wonder if it is a lack of self respect and discipline, disdain for CAP and the USAF, or just being ignorant of how to present ones self in a professional manner.

[Toad1168]

"..you can put a tuxedo on a pig, but it still looks like  pig"

Wow!!!! You would keep hard working and dedicated individuals from proudly wearing their insignia and decorations, that they have earned just as you have Toad, based on H/W? Nice example of respect for the individual.

I understand what you say about needing sharp uniform wear, and I happen to agree with you. Corporate or AF should be worn properly. What I do not agree with is you thinking I am not worthy of wearing my earned grade or ribbons.

BTW, even if you are a Toad, thank you for your service in law enforcement.

Edited for typo

It has nothing to do with H/W, that was never what I said.  It strictly is referencing appearance and how the uniform is worn.  If worn properly, it looks sharp no matter what the body type.  My stance is more on the improper and sloppy wear of any of our uniforms by members.  My pig comment relates to a metaphor.  Picture a pig, wallowing in the mud.  Now you want to dress it up to look pretty.  If you put a tuxedo on it, it still looks like a pig.  Supposed to be funny. 

Again, please do not misconstrue my statements as a commentary of H/W as that is not what was stated or intended.  We all know how the typed word can be misinterpreted.  It was simply a statement of my opinion of the corporate uniform which I have and do wear as well.

I am not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but I never even thought for a second you were talking about H/W standards. I agree, as a former cop and soldier, that if you look professional, you will act professional, and will be treated as a professional. In my short tenure in CAP so far, I have seen CAP SM, of all shapes and sizes, who have looked really professional, whether in the USAF or Corporate uniform, and have represented CAP in a positive manner. On the flip side, I have seen quite a plethora of SM, while in both uniforms, look like a total scum bum; having little respect for the uniform they are wearing or who they are representing. I often wonder if it is a lack of self respect and discipline, disdain for CAP and the USAF, or just being ignorant of how to present ones self in a professional manner.

Thanks grunt82abn.  That is the exact point I was trying to make.

[SarDragon]

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.  Same as with short sleeve Blues they are the only required badge.  In my case I also wear my ground team badge on the white shirt and my Army parachute Wings on the blue.  I wear no ribbons on either one because it's tradition for Air Force officers to leave those off.

Directed specifically at N6RVT:

So you're telling all of us that wear our G/W uniforms that, because of some AF "tradition", we shouldn't ever wear our ribbons?

This is a ponderable, so don't everyone else jump in first.

[Garibaldi]

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.  Same as with short sleeve Blues they are the only required badge.  In my case I also wear my ground team badge on the white shirt and my Army parachute Wings on the blue.  I wear no ribbons on either one because it's tradition for Air Force officers to leave those off.

Directed specifically at N6RVT:

So you're telling all of us that wear our G/W uniforms that, because of some AF "tradition", we shouldn't ever wear our ribbons?

This is a ponderable, so don't everyone else jump in first.

We already can't wear military ribbons on the aviator shirt, and somehow he's advocating for NO ribbons at all? No. CAP specific ribbons on the CAP specific uniform is not only logical, but what would be the point of NOT wearing them at all? The G/W does not have a service dress equivalent, so don't tell me that there's another way to wear them on the corporate uniform.

No. No, no, and no. Illogical, nonsensical, and wrong.

Thanks for playing.

[LSThiker]

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.  Same as with short sleeve Blues they are the only required badge.  In my case I also wear my ground team badge on the white shirt and my Army parachute Wings on the blue.  I wear no ribbons on either one because it's tradition for Air Force officers to leave those off.

Directed specifically at N6RVT:

So you're telling all of us that wear our G/W uniforms that, because of some AF "tradition", we shouldn't ever wear our ribbons?

This is a ponderable, so don't everyone else jump in first.

To be fair, he did not say that ribbons should not be worn on the G/W.  Rather, that he does not wear them on the uniform. 

I also do not wear my ribbons on the G/W simply because I do not like it.  However, I won't complain about others wearing ribbons on the G/W, nor will I restrict them.

[SarDragon]

Guys, thanks for the support, but I wanted a response from N6RVT first. Now we've already got a bit of a dog pile, and he hasn't even had the opportunity to defend his position. Not well played at all. 

[Garibaldi]

Guys, thanks for the support, but I wanted a response from N6RVT first. Now we've already got a bit of a dog pile, and he hasn't even had the opportunity to defend his position. Not well played at all. 

Dave, your exact wording was "directed specifically at N6RVT" and you did not specify that you were waiting expressly for him to respond. However I can see that an interpretation of your post would indicate you were waiting on HIM to reply, but that this was something to think about. Whether by him or the rest of us, it is worth thinking of. The potential of alienating a great number of members who wear the Greys with this ribbon business was what prompted me to answer heatedly and first.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled post, already in progress.

[DakRadz]

Almost. if you have Aviation Wings you have to wear those on the Aviator shirt.  Same as with short sleeve Blues they are the only required badge.  In my case I also wear my ground team badge on the white shirt and my Army parachute Wings on the blue.  I wear no ribbons on either one because it's tradition for Air Force officers to leave those off.

Directed specifically at N6RVT:

So you're telling all of us that wear our G/W uniforms that, because of some AF "tradition", we shouldn't ever wear our ribbons?

This is a ponderable, so don't everyone else jump in first.

Well the font is bigger than I intended, but emphasis mine.

[etodd]

This is why contributors should be able to lock a thread once their question has been answered. I just wanted to know what hat I could wear. It was answered on page one.

[Garibaldi]

This is why contributors should be able to lock a thread once their question has been answered. I just wanted to know what hat I could wear. It was answered on page one.

You should know better by now! 

We can't let go of things, like a dog with a new chew toy.