Base Access any updates?

[radioconsult]

With the Total Force transition pretty much complete, has anyone heard anything on the touchy subject of base access for CAP members?  At our 2015  annual Wing banquet CAP/CC touched on several topics and one mentioned was standardizing base access for members. Our Wing headquarters is located on base so those among us on Wing staff (myself included) without a military ID have DBIS cards for access. Regular members have to stop at the visitor center and get a day pass a real PITA.

[TheTravelingAirman]

Ultimately, it's up to the installation commander. There isn't a lot in the Air Force that an installation commander cannot allow or forbid on his base. Having a demonstrable need is a first step. Are the regular members visiting daily? Weekly? Or just monthly or less, attending maybe a quarterly Commander's Call? Because even then, a limited EAL good for the length of the CC Call + 2 hours is doable. Have you spoken to the liaison officer for the wing about this? Last unit, we just had to sign folks on for any on-base events, or drive them on and escort them.

EDIT: Pruned fluff.

[SAREXinNY]

"A real PITA" is a massive understatement based on my experience.  Recruiting civilians or even having a "family night" is terribly difficult when your squadron building is on a base.  I completely understand the need for security, but there has to be a better way to handle issues like this.  I can't even sign in a guest or prospective member, and I'm taking over as CC next month.  In fact, my base access is limited to only Friday nights (our meeting night) and Saturday's (or occasional training day).  They won't issue us "blanket passes" for any day/time.  If I need access to the building any other day of the week (or for an ES mission) I need one of our military members to sign me in.  It simply makes no sense and has been very frustrating at times.

[TheTravelingAirman]

This is a problem we considered when my last unit was contemplating a move to base. Ultimately it didn't happen because enough membership didn't want to add 15 minutes to their drive (understandable when some are already driving 30). We had decided our current location was going to be the Ops location. All ops equipment would be located there, unless training with it. Everything else was digital, so we could pack and move easily.

Ultimately, your military members and you should reach out to your Liaison Officer the wing should have assigned. It's a mandatory position I've  never seen it filled - real world mission takes priority over what is seen as a volunteer event, and with no active squadrons nearby requiring the support that position gave, it fell to the wayside. Get on the meeting schedule with the wing commander by contacting his or her secretary. You may get a slot 2 months from now, but that face time is invaluable; I just completed an encampment on a sister base in Japan, and the host CAP unit had the Vice Commander's ear and support. It was invaluable to execution of the encampment, and that was only the #2 guy.

I don't know what steps you're taking to talk with your host unit but those are good starting points. It also depends a bit on if they're AD, AFR, or ANG. My experience is wholly with Active, but Guard and Reserve bases still have a full-time skeletal structure to keep the lights on. Someone should be able to point you in the right direction. It may even be faster than what we've experienced.

[Eclipse]

Meeting on a military base can be as much a detriment as an advantage.

As to access related to TF, its been stated any number of times that TF, as well as CAP-USAF's move to 1AF will have little
to know impact on the rank and file membership.

[Live2Learn]

"A real PITA" is a massive understatement based on my experience.  Recruiting civilians or even having a "family night" is terribly difficult when your squadron building is on a base.  I completely understand the need for security, but there has to be a better way to handle issues like this.  I can't even sign in a guest or prospective member, and I'm taking over as CC next month.  In fact, my base access is limited to only Friday nights (our meeting night) and Saturday's (or occasional training day).  They won't issue us "blanket passes" for any day/time.  If I need access to the building any other day of the week (or for an ES mission) I need one of our military members to sign me in.  It simply makes no sense and has been very frustrating at times.

Nice summary of why CAP squadrons would likely be more viable if off base.  In my experience the PITA factor is very high for just about every aspect of the CAP mission while the benefit to the squadron is negligible to entirely negative.  Unfortunately, someone up the food chain (who never has to deal with the many problems and shortcomings) must receive brownie points for having a "close relationship" - on paper anyhow - with a base.

[Spaceman3750]

Meeting on a military base can be as much a detriment as an advantage.

AD bases, sure (which I realize is what we're talking about here).

Air Guard bases, on the other hand, can be awesome depending on what kind of relationship you build with them.

[thebeggerpie]

 I went to Lackland Joint Base about two weeks ago and they let me on with just the CAPID, no visitor pass needed.  But I have heard of other CAP members trying that and getting turned away to get a visitor pass, so I don't know what the official policy is there.

[PHall]

Meeting on a military base can be as much a detriment as an advantage.

AD bases, sure (which I realize is what we're talking about here).

Air Guard bases, on the other hand, can be awesome depending on what kind of relationship you build with them.

And they can be harder to got on to then many Active Duty bases. It all depends on the Base Commander and what the State National Guard Headquarters has ordered.

[Spaceman3750]

Meeting on a military base can be as much a detriment as an advantage.

AD bases, sure (which I realize is what we're talking about here).

Air Guard bases, on the other hand, can be awesome depending on what kind of relationship you build with them.

And they can be harder to got on to then many Active Duty bases. It all depends on the Base Commander and what the State National Guard Headquarters has ordered.

True. Here we seem to have decent luck with them, we help them out where we can and they help us, and everyone wins. That said, an ANG friend once told me that is part of the culture in the ANG here, probably not true elsewhere.

[Eclipse]

True. Here we seem to have decent luck with them, we help them out where we can and they help us, and everyone wins. That said, an ANG friend once told me that is part of the culture in the ANG here, probably not true elsewhere.

Hey, It's Illinois, where everybody "knows a guy", plus with the budget issues, they might need to hit us up for some coin!

[PA Guy]

With the Total Force transition pretty much complete, has anyone heard anything on the touchy subject of base access for CAP members?  At our 2015  annual Wing banquet CAP/CC touched on several topics and one mentioned was standardizing base access for members. Our Wing headquarters is located on base so those among us on Wing staff (myself included) without a military ID have DBIS cards for access. Regular members have to stop at the visitor center and get a day pass a real PITA.

When the Total Force thing was announced you would have thought the AF had given CAP the Holy Grail. It means little to nothing to the overwhelming majority of CAP members. It cracked me up watching people running around calling themselves "Airmen" CAP is and always will be the red headed kid at the family reunion. Let's just forget all this Total Force crud and do our job.

[Mitchell 1969]

"A real PITA" is a massive understatement based on my experience.  Recruiting civilians or even having a "family night" is terribly difficult when your squadron building is on a base.  I completely understand the need for security, but there has to be a better way to handle issues like this.  I can't even sign in a guest or prospective member, and I'm taking over as CC next month.  In fact, my base access is limited to only Friday nights (our meeting night) and Saturday's (or occasional training day).  They won't issue us "blanket passes" for any day/time.  If I need access to the building any other day of the week (or for an ES mission) I need one of our military members to sign me in.  It simply makes no sense and has been very frustrating at times.

A "good old days" story, certainly, but...

In 1971-74 or thereabouts, our squadron was on an AFB. In fact, a SAC base (including alert facility with B-52s and KC135s).  We had a great facility - office space, classrooms, parking, supply room. Seniors got base stickers for base access, in the color appropriate to rank. Our corporate vehicles got base stickers and flight line stickers (secure parking for them was on the flight line side of the fence).

CAP officers could get officer's club memberships. Cadet officers over 18 had associate memberships. The golf course was available to us. We worked the celebrity golf tournament with AFA every year. Free power, water and phone. No maintenance responsibilities. It was a nice setup. They loved CAP.

Now, the fact that one of our cadets was the son of the Commander of the local Bomb Wing probably helped. But I think the greater help came from the fact that one of the squadron members happened to be one of the last CWO-4s in the Air Force. Which means, in the long run, that it was a fantasy arrangement, not what every unit could expect.

I've seen other sweet deals like that with USAF, Marines, Army, NG. Trouble is, there is no permanence. It all hinges on personalities and baggage. If an incoming base commander had a bad experience with CAP, or even with some other youth group, that could be the end of the sweet deal for the squadron. 

[Briank]

Meeting on a military base can be as much a detriment as an advantage.

Definitely.  I would have joined CAP a couple years earlier except that the only local unit at that time was on a base, and a royal PITA to get to.  Didn't join until a new off-base unit started up (and if it hadn't, I probably still would not be a member).

[Nick]

I went to Lackland Joint Base about two weeks ago and they let me on with just the CAPID, no visitor pass needed.  But I have heard of other CAP members trying that and getting turned away to get a visitor pass, so I don't know what the official policy is there.

Unfortunately, the real "policy" is the only credential accepted at the gate must be DBIDS-compliant (has a 2-D barcode that can be read by the handheld DBIDS scanners).  This includes CACs, locally issued DBIDS ID cards, and visitor passes.  This is why the policy had been to send everyone to the visitor center for a pass; that way they have paper in hand that can be read by the scanner.

Unfortunately #2, the guards at Lackland are horribly inconsistent about following their operating procedures.  Trust me.

[Гугл переводчик]

The commander of the NG base here allows us to get visitor passes with the same expiration date as our CAP membership.

[Garibaldi]

The takeaway from all this is that most bases have different access restrictions. You would need to work with your wing/group HQ if you need base access in some instances, like ours. We have to email Wing 24 hours in advance to request permission to go to the BX and be put on a list for access. My squadron vehicle is kept on base, and of our 8 rated GTLs, I am the only one who is not retired military and can't get on base to get the vehicle without permission. Even the CC can't get on base at this point. Base commander's discretion.

Each base is different, in other words. There most likely will never be an across-the-board ID we can get or use due to these issues. Not every base commander wants to see "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes". Or whatever.

[NIN]

Not every base commander wants to see "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes". Or whatever.

Show me this. Show me this right now.  This minute. Documentation. Of "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes."

Because otherwise you're just perpetuating Radioman15 crap.

Unless you were one of the "kids [...] trolling for salutes," and have first-hand knowledge, just stop bringing up that old saw. Its as worthless in 2016 as Lee Harvey Oswald.

[DoubleSecret]

Not every base commander wants to see "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes". Or whatever.

Show me this. Show me this right now.  This minute. Documentation. Of "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes."

Because otherwise you're just perpetuating Radioman15 crap.

Unless you were one of the "kids [...] trolling for salutes," and have first-hand knowledge, just stop bringing up that old saw. Its as worthless in 2016 as Lee Harvey Oswald.

To be fair, it was said in quotes and it is a perception that CAP has to contend with when dealing with Big Blue.  Hence the disappearance of hard rank back in the day, hence the current careful distinctions between USAF and the CAP modified uniform, hence the dead-on-arrival CAC-like proposed membership card, etc.

[NIN]

Not every base commander wants to see "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes". Or whatever.

Show me this. Show me this right now.  This minute. Documentation. Of "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes."

Because otherwise you're just perpetuating Radioman15 crap.

Unless you were one of the "kids [...] trolling for salutes," and have first-hand knowledge, just stop bringing up that old saw. Its as worthless in 2016 as Lee Harvey Oswald.

To be fair, it was said in quotes and it is a perception that CAP has to contend with when dealing with Big Blue.  Hence the disappearance of hard rank back in the day, hence the current careful distinctions between USAF and the CAP modified uniform, hence the dead-on-arrival CAC-like proposed membership card, etc.

Quotes or not, its this kind of supposed "Well, my squadron commander told me that back in the day..."  stuff that just gets perpetuated over and over.

30 years ago it was "Cadets can't drive other cadets to activities."

"Why?"

"Because... a, uhhh, a cadet was driving his buddies to an activity and they, uh, they lost control, and then, uhhh, then they hit a bridge abutment. And they ALL DIED! Yeahh, thats the ticket!"

[Damron]

With the Total Force transition pretty much complete, has anyone heard anything on the touchy subject of base access for CAP members? 

What does the Total Force transition have to do with base access?

[THRAWN]

With the Total Force transition pretty much complete, has anyone heard anything on the touchy subject of base access for CAP members? 

What does the Total Force transition have to do with base access?

Some people are under the impression that we're now part of the "Total Force", we should have more access to bases, tech school and free rides in fighters. Truth is, CAP has always been part of the "Total Force" package. That and a fin will get me a coffee and...

[Garibaldi]

Not every base commander wants to see "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes". Or whatever.

Show me this. Show me this right now.  This minute. Documentation. Of "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes."

Because otherwise you're just perpetuating Radioman15 crap.

Unless you were one of the "kids [...] trolling for salutes," and have first-hand knowledge, just stop bringing up that old saw. Its as worthless in 2016 as Lee Harvey Oswald.

I'm not sure what exactly I did to get on your bad side, but I'm done.

[Fubar]

Show me this. Show me this right now.  This minute. Documentation. Of "kids running around in Air Faux uniforms trolling for salutes."

One of our Air Force reservists has a funny story from early in his career where someone in CAP attempted to demand a salute from him. He reported it to his chain of command, but he had no idea if anything came from it. Fortunately it didn't keep him from helping us out in the later years of his career as he heads off towards retirement. You'll never catch him saluting a CAP member though 

So it does happen. I didn't record our conversation, so I don't have documentation, just the word of an Air Force officer.

It certainly doesn't seem to happen enough to warrant any apocryphal stories though.

[NIN]

I'm not sure what exactly I did to get on your bad side, but I'm done.

You're not on my bad side, man. Its just .. jeez. We need to move on from that crap.

The last guy who proudly said to me "We're the best kept sec-" never finished that statement. I went all Darth Vader on him.

Because it doesn't need to be said OVER and OVER and OVER.

Fubar, I don't doubt people have seen this in the last 75 years, sure, but at a certain point, its like Ferris Bueller:  https://youtu.be/Y-SieCU11r4?t=26s

[Eclipse]

You'll never catch him saluting a CAP member though

Of course the next question would be "why not"?  CAP-RAPS garner considerable benefit from CAP, would it kill them to make a Senior member's day
by throwing a salute? 

Most of the ones I've worked with have been great, but every now and again, as in life generally, you get one who doesn't quite "get" the fact that:

A: Everyone else there is a volunteer just like you, and "your Sunday isn't any more or less valuable then mine", and

B: A fair number of RAPS would be out of the Air force, had it not been for CAP offering them a place to back fill the last few points they need
or offering a duty station in "mid-fly over no base around here".

[Fubar]

Fubar, I don't doubt people have seen this in the last 75 years, sure, but at a certain point, its like Ferris Bueller:  https://youtu.be/Y-SieCU11r4?t=26s

Hey, I'm with ya, it's just that your post had the appearance of without pics it's never happened. I figured you're more reasonable than that.

[NIN]

Hey, I'm with ya, it's just that your post had the appearance of without pics it's never happened. I figured you're more reasonable than that.

Oh, no, I get it. I guess I'm just like "give it a rest, for crying out loud."

Radioman went away and we've enjoyed a relative peace from the "all CAP folks want to do when they get on base is troll for salutes" meme...

[DoubleSecret]

You'll never catch him saluting a CAP member though

Of course the next question would be "why not"?  CAP-RAPS garner considerable benefit from CAP, would it kill them to make a Senior member's day
by throwing a salute? 

Most of the ones I've worked with have been great, but every now and again, as in life generally, you get one who doesn't quite "get" the fact that:

A: Everyone else there is a volunteer just like you, and "your Sunday isn't any more or less valuable then mine", and

B: A fair number of RAPS would be out of the Air force, had it not been for CAP offering them a place to back fill the last few points they need
or offering a duty station in "mid-fly over no base around here".

CAP isn't giving them anything.  USAFR is giving them CAP as an unpaid points-only opportunity, with the possibility of an occasional man-day.

If Big Blue wants its personnel to salute CAP members, Big Blue has the option to mandate it.  I personally think it would be ill-advised and would contribute to CAP members getting the idea that CAP rank carries some authority over that saluting military member.  I think it's ill-advised for military members to do it on a one-off basis for the same reason.

[Eclipse]

CAP isn't giving them anything.  USAFR is giving them CAP as an unpaid points-only opportunity, with the possibility of an occasional man-day.

No CAP no RAPs.  CAP makes and provides the opportunities.

If Big Blue wants its personnel to salute CAP members, Big Blue has the option to mandate it.  I personally think it would be ill-advised and would contribute to CAP members getting the idea that CAP rank carries some authority over that saluting military member.  I think it's ill-advised for military members to do it on a one-off basis for the same reason.

You really believe a salute, in this context, denotes authority?

[Fubar]

You really believe a salute, in this context, denotes authority?

Well, it's not a simple sign of respect, otherwise everyone would be saluting everyone. The custom has a hierarchy in it, to salute first you're saying you're lower in the hierarchy than the person you're saluting. I can see a member of the military not agreeing to be lower in a hierarchy based upon the CAP rank someone has.

[AirAux]

So, you see, Edith, you got your basic problem of not having UNIFORMS that differentiate CAP from USAF.  It leads to confusion and unwarranted salutes.  See, if everyone had their own individual UNIFORM, truly making them UNIFORM, you wouldn't have that problem.  But (and the secret is) the members that want to believe they are USAF, won't let everyone have a UNIFORM uniform...  They feel that they would be less if they wore a truly CAP UNIFORM..  But, Edith, I digress....

[Holding Pattern]

Hey, I'm with ya, it's just that your post had the appearance of without pics it's never happened. I figured you're more reasonable than that.

Oh, no, I get it. I guess I'm just like "give it a rest, for crying out loud."

Agreed.

I'm glad captalk is the only place I see this silliness.

[THRAWN]

So, you see, Edith, you got your basic problem of not having UNIFORMS that differentiate CAP from USAF.  It leads to confusion and unwarranted salutes.  See, if everyone had their own individual UNIFORM, truly making them UNIFORM, you wouldn't have that problem.  But (and the secret is) the members that want to believe they are USAF, won't let everyone have a UNIFORM uniform...  They feel that they would be less if they wore a truly CAP UNIFORM..  But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

It brings up another point that has been frequently argued about the style of the uniforms. It is repeated over and over that the cadet program needs the uniforms for the "military" aspect of the program and moving to a CAP only uniform would detract from that.

How?

Seems to me that there are plenty of "recognized" programs that have their own unis that are distinct and have no ties to any DoD component. It's a CAP uniform. Not an Air Force/Army/Marine Corps/Navy/Coast Guard/SDF/LMNOP uniform. It could be distinct and still be a uniform.

[LSThiker]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

[THRAWN]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

[grunt82abn]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

4 of us

[arajca]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

4 of us

But how many more will not admit to getting the reference?

[JeffDG]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

4 of us

But how many more will not admit to getting the reference?

Ahhhhh...Jeez.

[SarDragon]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

4 of us

Aaaaand... 5.

[Alaric]

But, Edith, I digress....

Meathead, I'm left wondering how many even get the reference.

All in the Family sitcom

Well that's 3 of us...

4 of us

Aaaaand... 5.

Stifle, people stifle

[DoubleSecret]

CAP isn't giving them anything.  USAFR is giving them CAP as an unpaid points-only opportunity, with the possibility of an occasional man-day.

No CAP no RAPs.  CAP makes and provides the opportunities.

If Big Blue wants its personnel to salute CAP members, Big Blue has the option to mandate it.  I personally think it would be ill-advised and would contribute to CAP members getting the idea that CAP rank carries some authority over that saluting military member.  I think it's ill-advised for military members to do it on a one-off basis for the same reason.

You really believe a salute, in this context, denotes authority?

You will note that I didn't say that.  I said it would contribute to CAP members getting that idea. 

[Eclipse]

I said it would contribute to CAP members getting that idea.

OK, great.  Let me help.

It doesn't.