Wing Commander Encampment Refusal?

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Has anybody ever had the experience where Applications for encampment were refused? further have you seen a case where they were refused based on them going to a particular encampment with a particular senior member? I have turned in applications (very late, which I take the blame for) to go to a nearby but out of state encampment that I have been told will all be denied because of my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment.

I really don't know what to do, I have cadets that have been planning on going to this for their summer encampment, and most of them can't go to the local one, and I can't get the applications processed! To me, it seems highly irregular that a wing commander should refuse the applications of Cadets based on some (apparently) bad history with me...

Does anybody have any advice for me, I could really use some.

[kwe1009]

Has anybody ever had the experience where Applications for encampment were refused? further have you seen a case where they were refused based on them going to a particular encampment with a particular senior member? I have turned in applications (very late, which I take the blame for) to go to a nearby but out of state encampment that I have been told will all be denied because of my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment.

I really don't know what to do, I have cadets that have been planning on going to this for their summer encampment, and most of them can't go to the local one, and I can't get the applications processed! To me, it seems highly irregular that a wing commander should refuse the applications of Cadets based on some (apparently) bad history with me...

Does anybody have any advice for me, I could really use some.

Was all of these factors communicated to your Wing CC?  I know in my Wing the preference is to attend locally but if you have a compelling reason to go elsewhere it is rarely denied.  The reason you gave for getting denied is not a valid one and is probably IG worthy but before you burn the bridge, try talking with your Wing CC (not email, actually talking) to get this sorted out.

[JeffDG]

Has anybody ever had the experience where Applications for encampment were refused? further have you seen a case where they were refused based on them going to a particular encampment with a particular senior member? I have turned in applications (very late, which I take the blame for) to go to a nearby but out of state encampment that I have been told will all be denied because of my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment.

I really don't know what to do, I have cadets that have been planning on going to this for their summer encampment, and most of them can't go to the local one, and I can't get the applications processed! To me, it seems highly irregular that a wing commander should refuse the applications of Cadets based on some (apparently) bad history with me...

Does anybody have any advice for me, I could really use some.

Was all of these factors communicated to your Wing CC?  I know in my Wing the preference is to attend locally but if you have a compelling reason to go elsewhere it is rarely denied.  The reason you gave for getting denied is not a valid one and is probably IG worthy but before you burn the bridge, try talking with your Wing CC (not email, actually talking) to get this sorted out.

Exercise of discretionary authority by a commander, unless it is because of EO or retaliation (ie. the member has filed a complaint against the commander and the commander is getting back at that member) reasons, are not "IG worthy".  IGs do no substitute their preferences for commanders, they investigate violations of regulations.  Exercise of discretion is not a violation of regulations.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

I am currently trying to route this towards a phone conversation, and he says he will call me this weekend. Fingers crossed. I think it may be worthy on both, should I choose to take it to the IG because:

1. EO - other cadets have been allowed to go to out of state and region encampments this year, one is in my squadron. This is a class action based on me taking the small group of cadets to the encampment  location.

2. Retaliation - his response to me clearly noted that my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment has not gone unnoticed (though I have not been unenthusiastic, I was forbidden from attending because the encampment commander didn't like my timing of having to resign as the Wing DCP) There is a lot of political history here that doesn't even include me, mostly about my squadron and the previous commander. Have plenty of grounds to believe it is retaliatory.

I also don't believe this qualifies for the "Good Cause" concept outlined in the regulation, as these Cadets are all in good standing and are capable of going. They are at least as qualified as another cadet that has already been sent to an out of region encampment. He also has not seen the applications yet, so this is only a refusal because they are not going to the local encampment and because they are going with me.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Certainly a commander can exercise the right to prioritize attendance at the local encampment over a wing one. But IIRC, wasn't there another case from a year or so ago, concerning someone either from ID or the IDWG encampment drama?

[Eclipse]

All out of state activities have to be approved by the Wing CC unless there is a policy in place to the
contrary.  This isn't universally enforced, especially with regards to encampments and NCSAs, etc.,
but the authority is there.

This isn't the first time I've heard of a Wing CC requiring cadets attend encampment locally instead of
in another wing.  Personally I don't think it's a good idea, especially if they enforce a travel ban on their cadets
but allow cadets from other wings to come to their encampment, but with that said, encampments are a
huge undertakings and some have a fair amount of financial baseline cost and loss risk if the numbers are too low, so
it's not unreasonable that a Wing CC is trying to protect his activities.  Once canceled, they can be near impossible to restart.

There's also the issue of wanting cadets to be trained the "xwing way".  Despite the "standardized" curriculum,
encampments are far from standardized, and wanting cadets to learn from and serve their peers, vs having that
effort go out of state is unreasonable, either. That is especially true for their first encampment.

My wing has two encampments, neither of which is all that close to a fair population of cadets in the Southern portion
of the state.  Were there to be an encampment next door, and the other two are viable, it's not unreasonable to
OK those cadets doing a road game, but if the home wing's encampments are struggling due to numbers, well then "Sorry,
no travel teams this year."

It's a tough / unpopular call to have to make, but a respective wing CC is charged with the training and viability of his wing,
not others, and he has to take the steps he feels necessary.

The question on the table, since encampments just don't "pop up", why aren't your cadets participating locally?
The answer to that question would inform not only the conversation here, but also up the chain.  I don't there's a complaint
here as this is well within the authority of a Wing CC.

[Eclipse]

1. EO - other cadets have been allowed to go to out of state and region encampments this year, one is in my squadron. This is a class action based on me taking the small group of cadets to the encampment  location.

This is not an EO situation unless you can prove they are being denied base on a protected class.  "That unit that wants to drive out of state." Isn't a protected class
in regards to Equal Opportunity.  Also, those cadets are not being denied the encampment experience, only attendance at a particular encampment.  That's not the same thing.

2. Retaliation - his response to me clearly noted that my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment has not gone unnoticed (though I have not been unenthusiastic, I was forbidden from attending because the encampment commander didn't like my timing of having to resign as the Wing DCP) There is a lot of political history here that doesn't even include me, mostly about my squadron and the previous commander. Have plenty of grounds to believe it is retaliatory.

Maybe, but as you say, there's a lot of unrelated history.

I also don't believe this qualifies for the "Good Cause" concept outlined in the regulation, as these Cadets are all in good standing and are capable of going. They are at least as qualified as another cadet that has already been sent to an out of region encampment. He also has not seen the applications yet, so this is only a refusal because they are not going to the local encampment and because they are going with me.

Then have them get there on their own or go with someone else. If you're the issue, separate yourself from them and leave them out of it.

So you have some issues with the wing's encampment, fair enough, you don't participate.  Why didn't your cadets?

[calebtornado12]

Eclipes, I am one of these cadets participating in this out of state encampment. My reason for not attending our wing's is because I have a family activity that same week. Some other cadet's in my squadron have also attended this encampment before, so i choose to go to that one instead. I've already payed for this encampment, and done everything we can do to be ready. I personally feel that as a cadet, that my decision to go to this encampment was smart, and I feel that them being denied solely to the fact that we arent doing our wing's is very very lame. I am a C/SMSgt, i cant't/ don't want to wait 8 months to promote to a C/2nd Lt because i couldnt go to an encampment. It's one thing to deny a specific person for reasons, but a whole group? That makes me very very angry, and I hope that my Senior Leadership will be able to take care of this to the best of their abilities. 

[Eclipse]

Fair enough for you, you can't fight the calendar.

As to the cadets who have been to this one before, why aren't they staffing the local one instead of going out of state?

These are some of the factors to consider.

If we want to get nit picky I could ask how / why you paid for this activity before your participation was approved.  Regardless,
you obviously should get a refund if you can't attend.

[calebtornado12]

Well one of them just started BCT at the Air Force Academy yesterday... So she can't. The other isnt attending this year because of family activities as well throughout the summer.

[calebtornado12]

And as for why i signed up, it was because the application date for this specific encampment was WAY earlier than normal ones i've been told.

[Eclipse]

Well one of them just started BCT at the Air Force Academy yesterday... So she can't. The other isn't attending this year because of family activities as well throughout the summer.

It sounds like several of you have legit reasons, outside any politics Meerkat might be mired in.  Perhaps it's time to have mom or dad make some phone calls
on an individual basis.

[calebtornado12]

Not a bad idea, but since he is the one taking us, I feel that i should probably wait until he has talked to other people and I get more info.

[NIN]

I am currently trying to route this towards a phone conversation, and he says he will call me this weekend. Fingers crossed. I think it may be worthy on both, should I choose to take it to the IG because:

1. EO - other cadets have been allowed to go to out of state and region encampments this year, one is in my squadron. This is a class action based on me taking the small group of cadets to the encampment  location.

Thats really not EO unless it was done because a cadet was female or a particular race or other "protected class."

it may seem "arbitrary" but thats not the true definition of "EO"

2. Retaliation - his response to me clearly noted that my lack of enthusiasm for the local encampment has not gone unnoticed (though I have not been unenthusiastic, I was forbidden from attending because the encampment commander didn't like my timing of having to resign as the Wing DCP) There is a lot of political history here that doesn't even include me, mostly about my squadron and the previous commander. Have plenty of grounds to believe it is retaliatory.

Thats something you have to sort out between you and the wing commander. Sounds like you've gotten yourself into a political squabble and there's a "backsplash" effect on people standing nearby you.

Not saying its right or wrong, but sometimes we color our associates with our own actions, thru no fault of their own.

I also don't believe this qualifies for the "Good Cause" concept outlined in the regulation, as these Cadets are all in good standing and are capable of going. They are at least as qualified as another cadet that has already been sent to an out of region encampment. He also has not seen the applications yet, so this is only a refusal because they are not going to the local encampment and because they are going with me.

Yeah, you better be having a face-to-face (not over email) convo with the wing commander. "Sir, Cadet Timmy has a conflict with Scout Camp, Cadet Jimmy can only get that other wing's week off for summer school, and Cadet Sally is going cuz she's got a thing for Cadet Timmy..."

Otherwise, they're going to be painted with a "They're just going cuz they're from his squadron" brush.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

I don't pretend to know what their reasons are for needing to go out of state, only that they do. Whether it is because they have family trips next month or that they simply wanted to go out of state, why should they be denied without good cause? Good cause to me doesn't constitute "You turned in the applications, so I'm summarily rejecting them".  If other cadets have been allowed to go out of state, and these cadets asked one senior member to route their applications, then it also stands to reason that this is action taken against a class of Cadets because they are working with that particular disliked senior member. They all ARE being denied the encampment experience if they are not able to attend the local one, that is a de facto deprivation of opportunity, especially this late in the game. These are cadets from two different units that are not a part of the political backstabbing game that has been going on between seniors in my wing, they don't deserve to be the pawns in the game. It's disgusting and morally reprehensible. This is not the way to influence young leaders, by saying that when you have the power of position you can do anything to anyone you like without having to consider consequences.

What you're saying Sir, is that a Wing Commander telling cadets to only go to the local encampment, regardless of their schedule or plans, and only because of their perceived affiliation with a subject he doesn't like is an acceptable practice, Am I correct? There is no protection for these Cadets that want to go to encampment but can't (or maybe even won't) go to the local one?

I would gladly stop from taking them down there if that would help, but the refusal came before any of those options could be tabled. There is a lot of unrelated history, but for some reason, it has now become related because of them talking to the wrong senior members.

[Eclipse]

These cadets aren't a "class" - you should stop using that term because it doesn't apply in this context.

Don't confuse "acceptable" with "best".  It is frequently pointed out by IGs that exercise of command authority, even
if the subordinates don't like it, and things don't seem "fair", isn't necessarily grounds for a complaint. 

I would agree this seems arbitrary and capricious, and certainly would appear to negate the far-reaching
imperative of the cadet program, as discussed in TLC, to always do what is in the best interests of the cadets.

Since it appears you are the flash point of the issue, disengage and let the cadets address it directly with the Wing CC or
the next echelon.  Since this involves multiple wings, the other wing CC is bound to have an opinion as well, and certainly
it's fair game to make the Region CC aware of what they feel is unfair treatment.

[stillamarine]

For a while FLWG did not allow anyone to go out of state for PD or encampments. Which really sucked when you were in Group 1. We had to fight to finally be allowed to go to ALWG for PD classes and I believe some cadets went to the joint AL/MS Encampment. Bottom line is it's up to the Wing King. Get some solid reasoning behind your wanting to go out of Wing for that training. If it's a logistics reason, show it to them.

[stillamarine]

Also isn't there a requirement to request permission from wing to attend something out of Wing? So this shouldn't be a surprise to the cadets "late in the game". The request should have been done months ago.

[NIN]

This is one of those circumstances where Colin Powell's Rule #3 applies.

"Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it."

You need to quickly and decisively separate whatever issue you may have with the wing commander (and, apparently, he with you) from your cadets.

This is not about you going to encampment anymore.

This is about them going to encampment.

This is not about you "not having a chance to put that on the table first."

This is about fixing whatever is keeping the wing commander from not approving these cadets to go to encampment, and getting them to encampment.

You're a CP leader, I assume. You know that this is about the good of the troops, first.  Whats good for Kevin is way, way, way down on the list from that.

And if something you're doing, have done, are about to do, refuse to do, or people think you might do is contributing to this in a negative way, you need to get clear. With the swiftness.

Look out for your troops first.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Also isn't there a requirement to request permission from wing to attend something out of Wing? So this shouldn't be a surprise to the cadets "late in the game". The request should have been done months ago.

I wish it could have been, I already said that. Unfortunately this is all their first time doing this rodeo, so it was rather difficult to get some of them lined up.

These cadets aren't a "class" - you should stop using that term because it doesn't apply in this context.

Don't confuse "acceptable" with "best".  It is frequently pointed out by IGs that exercise of command authority, even
if the subordinates don't like it, and things don't seem "fair", isn't necessarily grounds for a complaint. 

I would agree this seems arbitrary and capricious, and certainly would appear to negate the far-reaching
imperative of the cadet program, as discussed in TLC, to always do what is in the best interests of the cadets.

Since it appears you are the flash point of the issue, disengage and let the cadets address it directly with the Wing CC or
the next echelon.  Since this involves multiple wings, the other wing CC is bound to have an opinion as well, and certainly
it's fair game to make the Region CC aware of what they feel is unfair treatment.

Regardless of the titles I'm using for it, the argument is still the same and using Cadets for political pawns is asinine. I have done everything I can to stay out of these garbage political games for the best interests of the Cadets, and I'm still getting flack for it. I do appreciate those last suggestions, I will probably use those soon if he is unwilling to work with me. If it's possible for me to stay out of this, then I'll get out of the game completely, but given his predisposition I'm not sure that will matter anymore... I have another driver for them and will gladly step back so they can go, but I fear that won't fix it. If I can put that option before him and he will accept it, then that is what I will do. Me turning in applications is all it took for him to blanket disapprove people, so I'm not sure he'll be willing to lose face even if I have the parents call individually... I'm going to try though.

NIN, I haven't even been given the chance to do any of this yet, that's the problem... Please assume that I care about them going to the encampment more than I do myself. I have already started working up alternatives for myself if that's the way he wants this.