Air Crew Emergency Training (ACET)

[Eclipse]

How many MOs don't get some stick time anyway?

It's supposed to be zero.

[Live2Learn]

How many MOs don't get some stick time anyway?

It's supposed to be zero.

Where do the regs say that? 

[Eclipse]

^ Where do they say anything about the MO being a co-pilot, safety pilot, or student pilot?

Why would an MO be getting stick time, they have a very specific job that does not involve driving.

[Live2Learn]

^ Where do they say anything about the MO being a co-pilot, safety pilot, or student pilot?

Why would an MO be getting stick time, they have a very specific job that does not involve driving.

Maybe on a SAR/DR mission in grid or enroute to/from grid, but droning along to relo?  What's the problem there?  If the regs don't prohibit it, it can be done safely, there's no compromise to mission objectives, what's the rationale for diminishing our overall crew readiness??  Ya lost me with your rationale for rejecting the idea. 

Getting back to the original discussion...  there are several instances in the NTSB db where pilots have become incapacitated.  Even under the best of circumstances it's an emergency.  If the MO can control the aircraft that's a BIG asset.  While the pilot is healthy the PIC is still PIC regardless of who's pinkys are touching the yoke.  FWIW, a few years ago I had a right seater experience a heart attack while in flight.  It could very easily have been the left seater on that flight (How many times have we heard "NOT ME" from our fellows when it comes to SPDI (Sudden Pilot Death or Incapacitation).  It's interesting how many people deny or minimize health issues - until they keel over or get ear blocks.  Of course, CAP has no overweight, out of shape, elderly pilots flying CAP missions.  And CAP pilots NEVER, EVER fly just a teeny bit ill.  Nah.  Could never happen    We're all hale, hearty, trim, fit, organic, and low fat triathlon champs.   My wife's cousin was an athletic guy, never was ill, was the picture of health until he dropped dead at 45.  I bet most of us knew (note past tense) at least a couple guys who 'felt fine' right up to the face plant, or who (best case here!) flew a teensy bit ill and learned a lesson about "IMSAFE" the hard way.  The MO really needs some stick time, "just in case".

[Eclipse]

^ Where do they say anything about the MO being a co-pilot, safety pilot, or student pilot?

Why would an MO be getting stick time, they have a very specific job that does not involve driving.

Maybe on a SAR/DR mission in grid or enroute to/from grid, but droning along to relo?  What's the problem there?  If the regs don't prohibit it, it can be done safely, there's no compromise to mission objectives, what's the rationale for diminishing our overall crew readiness??  Ya lost me with your rationale for rejecting the idea. 

The MO isn't a pilot, the PIC isn't a CFI, and flight training senior members isn't allowed, and certainly not during a number assigned mission.

What else do you need?

(No reason to go to the "what if when they ares" on the above, the safety pilot / co-pilot nonsense during missions when the right seat is supposed to
be the MO has caused more issues during missions and training then I care to delineate, ranging from inability / unwillingness to use the CAP radios to using the
Becker to listen to local radio stations, to no one actually doing mission work because everyone is touching God's face).

[Eclipse]

Getting back to the original discussion...  there are several instances in the NTSB db where pilots have become incapacitated.  Even under the best of circumstances it's an emergency.  If the MO can control the aircraft that's a BIG asset.  While the pilot is healthy the PIC is still PIC regardless of who's pinkys are touching the yoke.  FWIW, a few years ago I had a right seater experience a heart attack while in flight.  It could very easily have been the left seater on that flight (How many times have we heard "NOT ME" from our fellows when it comes to SPDI (Sudden Pilot Death or Incapacitation).  It's interesting how many people deny or minimize health issues - until they keel over or get ear blocks.  Of course, CAP has no overweight, out of shape, elderly pilots flying CAP missions.  And CAP pilots NEVER, EVER fly just a teeny bit ill.  Nah.  Could never happen    We're all hale, hearty, trim, fit, organic, and low fat triathlon champs.   My wife's cousin was an athletic guy, never was ill, was the picture of health until he dropped dead at 45.  I bet most of us knew (note past tense) at least a couple guys who 'felt fine' right up to the face plant, or who (best case here!) flew a teensy bit ill and learned a lesson about "IMSAFE" the hard way.  The MO really needs some stick time, "just in case".

You're making a valid theoretical argument that does not bear out in the statistics, unless you're aware of a significant demonstrable number of situations in which this has occurred
in a CAP context.

In fact, from a statistical point of view, it is far more likely that the PIC will leave the tow bar attached, fly too close to other aircraft or cause a runway incursion,
not to mention have an engine failure, fail to properly check tire pressure, or have a bird strike, yet those are causing crashes either, and members aren't wearing
helmets or required to have Nomex.

[Live2Learn]

You're making a valid theoretical argument that does not bear out in the statistics, unless you're aware of a significant demonstrable number of situations in which this has occurred
in a CAP context.

In fact, from a statistical point of view, it is far more likely that the PIC will leave the tow bar attached, fly too close to other aircraft or cause a runway incursion,
not to mention have an engine failure, fail to properly check tire pressure, or have a bird strike, yet those are causing crashes either, and members aren't wearing
helmets or required to have Nomex.

No argument about the likelihood of tow bar prop strikes and hangar rash.  However, I've yet to hear of ANYONE being killed by hangar rash.  I suppose the risk of death or injury might be higher from a tow bar prop strike, though again, I've never read of an FSI from a flying tow bar.  They just cost a relatively small amount of money per incident, and are very easy to track.  From a "statistical point of view" we don't need medicals, should do BFR's rather than annual CAPF 5s,  and maybe don't really need biannual CAPF 91's.  Lots of money could be saved with little risk by doing  annuals rather than 100 hours.  Just looking at the number of accidents caused by mechanic error makes me very tentative about the first 10-20 hours after every visit to the shop.  But CAP accepts these costs and goes well beyond what is 'statistically necessary' since (in some cases) it shaves a few points off our accident rate.  All of those low statistical probability risks have an FSI (FATAL/SERIOUS INJURY) component which seems to get a lot of attention. I think the stuff that reduces FSI accidents are a good thing.  Too bad they're all expensive.  Safety (i.e. accident prevention) may not  be "cost effective" if we look only at the piddling stuff.  However, the NTSB doesn't appear to be swayed, nor is the USAF with its insistence on training, PPE, maintenance, annual check rides, and etc..  Still, CAP is way out there in terms of flight ops risk.  Every Federal agency aviation department I know of prohibits SE piston FW IFR, Night, and overwater ops beyond gliding distance of land.

[JeffDG]

Your logic is broken.

It's not my logic. How many has your wing done? Is it being done at NESA?

Just because something hasn't happened, doesn't mean that it won't or can't happen. This is one of those things that may happen.
We have the ability to train up to mitigate the eventuality.

Agreed.  CAP has the ability to do many things.  And only so many hours and dollars in a month.

Scroll up. Answered already. Is it something that NEEDS to be done at NESA or is it something that can and maybe should be completed during locally funded training missions? I understand the budgetary and time constraints, but that's an excuse. Find things that add value to the program and drop the nonsense. Plan and execute an open training mission so people aren't being shoehorned into a rushed weekend or slammed by weather. Like Ramos said, when it happens, the 2 or 3 people in the plane will be glad that there was some training provided.

It can be done locally.  However, IIRC, it CANNOT be done on funded missions.

I seem to recall the AF being asked about this and them saying "No, you cannot use your appropriated funds for this."  I believe they even disallowed using "B" missions for it.

It was in the minutes of one of the NB or NEC meetings where it was first proposed.

[Eclipse]

I seem to recall the AF being asked about this and them saying "No, you cannot use your appropriated funds for this."  I believe they even disallowed using "B" missions for it.

Now that you mention it, that's what I recall as well.