ABU Boots?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Why do I get the feeling that in this thread...

That every time SAR, Eclipse, and ABD make a parry with his their swords they draw blood, while others hit his their shields or just beat air?

[abdsp51]

1. To distinguish us from USAF
2. The green suede boots cost from $80-over 100 dollars. Since dislike the AF they are not issued to CAP, it eliminates a big cost for all.

So do the black boots.  If you are trying to get a decent pair of boots its going to be the same price.  Its not like they are more expensive just because of the color.

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I have found hi quality black leather boots for well under $80 where as the sage suede was twice as much..

[Eclipse]

Tactical-style black boots with a flat finish can be found at Walmart for under $50, more then appropriate for growing cadets
and / or the average CAP member who wears them a couple times a month and never sees mud.

And even with the "shiny" ones, the level of "shiny" required takes about the same as cleaning tactical style boots.

If you want to waste an afternoon putting a mirror on them, so be it, but that's not required by a long shot and
should not be a factor in deciding what boots are chosen for the uniform.

The suede choice will force members to spend way more money then necessary.

[SarDragon]

Why do I get the feeling that in this thread...

That every time SAR makes a parry with his sword he draws blood, while others hit his shield or just beats the air?

"Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill."

[Storm Chaser]

Tactical-style black boots with a flat finish can be found at Walmart for under $50, more then appropriate for growing cadets
and / or the average CAP member who wears them a couple times a month and never sees mud.

And even with the "shiny" ones, the level of "shiny" required takes about the same as cleaning tactical style boots.

If you want to waste an afternoon putting a mirror on them, so be it, but that's not required by a long shot and
should not be a factor in deciding what boots are chosen for the uniform.

The suede choice will force members to spend way more money then necessary.

If cost was a major concern, then perhaps we should've picked a different uniform. ABUs are not only more expensive, but their sizing offers less wiggle room for growing cadets and senior members' waists. This may result in additional expense to the member or uniforms that don't fit correctly. A lose-lose situation for many.

[stillamarine]

1. To distinguish us from USAF
2. The green suede boots cost from $80-over 100 dollars. Since dislike the AF they are not issued to CAP, it eliminates a big cost for all.

So do the black boots.  If you are trying to get a decent pair of boots its going to be the same price.  Its not like they are more expensive just because of the color.

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You are wearing them once a week. You don't need fancy boots. I have a pair of 30 dollar jungle boots from Academy. Hold a good shine, just needed inserts. Work great and will probably last me over a year. My work boots cost well over a $100 but I wear those over 40 hours a week.

And another thing, if you don't need "fancy" ones why do need a actual fancy pair of dress shoes for class A's B's or what ever dress uniform you wear?

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Well I wear a police utility uniform every day. As far as why I need "fancy"? Because they are on my feet usually at the very least 50 hours a week. Much more than your once in a blue moon SAREX or maybe one Saturday a month. Plus the fact my work boots are not authorized for CAP or I would wear them, why have two pairs really. I have worn my $30 pair of jungle boots to a SAREX and other events. Like I said get a good pair of inserts and you are good to go.

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military. When I went to the police academy I had to teach another Marine vet how to shine his boots. It takes no time at all. I've been shining boots for over almost 30 years. My 13 year old son who is now a CAP cadet shines his own boots. Never a complaint.

[HGjunkie]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

[kwe1009]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

It does show, and teach, attention to detail.  A very good shine can be done in about 10-15 minutes.  Ironing the uniform about 10 minutes so in less time that it takes to watch a 30-minute show anyone can have a sharp looking uniform. 

I'm not sure what the current geopolitical environment has to do with shining boots. 

I don't see where shoe shining or uniform ironing are taking away from a mission ready force.  The military did both since the beginning of this country and I think we have done a pretty good job of being mission ready over the last 200 years.  In regards to CAP, can anyone produce any data that shows shining shoes/boots degrades our mission readiness?

[NIN]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

Yeah, I somehow suspect that the time originally spent "shoe and boot shining" has been replaced by other things that are important.

I once had a 1SG who insisted on inspecting people's uniforms _AFTER_LUNCH_.  So the aircraft maintenance guys, who have been working on aircraft all morning and might have grease on their uniforms, or heaven forbid, a scuffed boot from going up and down the side of the aircraft, and getting told they're all slackers cuz, you know, they look like they've been working all morning. 

The maintenance guys trudged to the hangar every day with their "better set of boots" and dutifully changed into just before lunch was over so they could be looked at, and then changed back into their "work pair." Talk about effort that could be used elsewhere.

In the maintenance hangar latrine one day, on the butcher paper hung on the stall walls to allow the graffiti artists their expression without permanent damage, appeared the scrawl : "Scuffed boots are a sign of actual work. Just look at Top's."

[Storm Chaser]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

Agree 100%. I've been shinning boots and shoes for almost 29 years and I'm pretty good at it. That said, it hasn't made me a better Airman or Officer. It hasn't provided any necessary skills to perform my Air Force or CAP jobs. It hasn't contributed to the mission in any shape or form. I don't mind doing it, but would prefer to use that time (even though it's not much) doing other more productive things.

[Spaceman3750]

In regards to CAP, can anyone produce any data that shows shining shoes/boots degrades our mission readiness?

For cadets, I could buy into the idea of doing a 15-minute shoe shine under the guise of "building character" or whatever - they are, after all, there to learn life skills. I'd rather see them using that 15 minutes to study, but a protective coat of polish isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Seniors, on the other hand, are usually not in CAP to learn about how to live - if they need someone to teach them that, they are in the wrong organization. If a senior has 15-20 minutes to spend on CAP, I would rather see them spending it on something that contributes to the squadron, vs. having the shiniest boots. Again, polishing for protection does apply, but that's certainly not a weekly thing.

As it happens, the RealMilitary has been using suede for years now, and so far they haven't failed to accomplish their mission due to lack of boot shining.

[goblin]

Maybe they kept the black boots to keep Cap members polishing them. I keep hearing from Senior NCO's in all branches that the downfall of discipline started when boot shinning went out the window. Not that I agree or disagree with this point, but it is an interesting point none the less.

No, you don't keep hearing that.

[kwe1009]

In regards to CAP, can anyone produce any data that shows shining shoes/boots degrades our mission readiness?

For cadets, I could buy into the idea of doing a 15-minute shoe shine under the guise of "building character" or whatever - they are, after all, there to learn life skills. I'd rather see them using that 15 minutes to study, but a protective coat of polish isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Seniors, on the other hand, are usually not in CAP to learn about how to live - if they need someone to teach them that, they are in the wrong organization. If a senior has 15-20 minutes to spend on CAP, I would rather see them spending it on something that contributes to the squadron, vs. having the shiniest boots. Again, polishing for protection does apply, but that's certainly not a weekly thing.

As it happens, the RealMilitary has been using suede for years now, and so far they haven't failed to accomplish their mission due to lack of boot shining.

I don't recall saying that boot shining was critical to mission success.  I simply said that it was a way to learn and show attention to detail.  I have been in the Real Military for nearly 30 years myself.  Have standards dropped during that time?  In many areas, it has but you can't blame lack of boot shining on it either. 

As a Senior Member who works with cadets I am keenly aware that how my uniform looks creates an impression on those around me (good or bad depending on how the uniform looks).  Honestly if a person is too busy to spend 10 minutes every week or so on polishing boots (I never said make them a mirror finish) then they are probably too busy for CAP in general.  This is a conversation I have with parents all of the time who say their child is involved in a ton of other activities and can maybe attend meetings once every 4-6 weeks.  Simply put, if you are that busy then there is no need to add more to your plate.  As an adult, especially one that is around cadets often, if you don't have the time to put your uniform together properly (less than 20 minutes or so per week) then maybe you are stretching yourself too thin and should consider giving up something.

We aren't talking about spending 15 minutes per day shining boots.  Once you have a good base shine you can probably go a few weeks without spending more than 5 minutes to keep them looking good.  There is over 10,000 minutes in a week.  If a person can't find that amount of time to shine boots then they have way too much on their plate and that is not a healthy way to be.

Maybe they kept the black boots to keep Cap members polishing them. I keep hearing from Senior NCO's in all branches that the downfall of discipline started when boot shinning went out the window. Not that I agree or disagree with this point, but it is an interesting point none the less.

I have heard that too but don't agree with it.  The downfall of discipline (in the Air Force at least) started when we were still wearing BDUs and shining boots.  The downfall came with SNCOs became more concerned with their own careers instead of caring for the troops under them.

[baronet68]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

As Murphy states... No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever passed combat

Also, just for fun, everyone should read about the "Sukhomlinov Effect" which basically states that, in any given conflict, the loser is most likely to be the side whose generals wear the prettiest uniforms.

[stillamarine]

The laziness nowadays is astounding. Even in the military.

Knowledge of shoe shining, does not a mission ready force make - especially in the current geopolitical environment.

As Murphy states... No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever passed combat

Also, just for fun, everyone should read about the "Sukhomlinov Effect" which basically states that, in any given conflict, the loser is most likely to be the side whose generals wear the prettiest uniforms.

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. And from experience. During all of my combat deployments my units never had a problem being clean and inspection ready in our field gear. We kept our gear clean, our uniforms as clean as possible and our boots buffed and clean (until they started falling apart). If I can keep my boots buffed and cleaned in those environments than so can a cadet wearing them once a week. I don't ask that my cadets have spit shined boots and neither does the regs. Put some polish on them and buff them out. That's all you really need.

[HGjunkie]

I'm not saying that having shined boots doesn't make a unit combat effective. What I am saying is, the military has too many problems to deal with right now to make shoe shining a priority in anything but formal environments, and a lack of knowledge on how to shine your shoes does not indicate the current state of the military, in regards to your comment on laziness. If a maintenance airman is putting in 16 hour workdays, there's no reason for him to spend any amount of time worrying about the state of his footwear past whether or not they're falling apart. It's simply the last measure of merit you should use to judge someone's work ethic and effectiveness.

[NIN]

Here's a mind  blower : they don't issue leather shoes in basic anymore. Patent Leather/ Corfram all the way


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[Agent_ND]

Here's a mind  blower : they don't issue leather shoes in basic anymore. Patent Leather/ Corfram all the way


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Are you talking about Boots or Dress Shoes?

[Luis R. Ramos]

...they don't issue leather shoes in basic anymore.

Unless he made a typo, this part points to shoes not to boots...

[SarDragon]

Here's a mind  blower : they don't issue leather shoes in basic anymore. Patent Leather/ Corfram all the way


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They aren't patent leather. The current name (since Dupont vacated the IP on Corfam) is poromeric. I'll call them plastic, since I don't feel like typing poromeric any more.

I found out a while back, when pricing a new pair of oxfords (dress shoes), that the leather ones are now significantly more expensive than the plastic shoes. Pay now, or pay later. Life on the plastic is noticeably shorter than the plastic ones, so you'll be replacing them more often. The best I ever got out of the plastic ones was about 18 months, and wore out the soles before the uppers. Spent 6-7n hours a day walking in them on industrial carpet (short pile), and it ate the soles. Other times, I managed to GR up the uppers to the point where they weren't wearable. My current leather ones are about 5 years old, although I only wear then 5-10 times a month.