When to self ground, vs when to 'man up' and just DO IT

[Live2Learn]

Ok, oh Wise Ones:

What's your interpretation of FAR 67 and 61.53?  This is a topic I think might be ripe for a safety discussion among pilots.  When should a good, upstanding CAP pilot self ground?  What specific acute illnesses or conditions do you thing it's ok to fly with, and what would illness/condition would self ground?

Does anyone have a war story with names, dates, and places changed to protect the innocent and avoid problems with the 5th Amendment?  For example, I recall a very experienced pilot a few years ago that flew with a toothache...  (I wasn't with him, but learned of it later).  I heard from a mutual friend that he had an abscessed tooth that he 'toughed it out' through about 10 hours spread over two days... before he flew home.  In retrospect, someone in the know maybe should have intervened and suggested he call someone to drive him home (or maybe not??? what's your opinion)?

Do we have any AME's on forum who might offer some genuine 'expert' advice???

[C/SrA Ravlin]

Any time a CAP pilot feels grounding a flight is appropriate is when it should happen. If they don't feel like flying that day (within reason) they should ground themselves because they could miss something since they are not paying attention. And any illness is a reason to ground a flight...

[vento]

IMSAFE checklist and Common Sense ORM should be more than enough to help the AirCrew (not just the pilot) make the responsible Go No-Go decision. "Man up" shouldn't be part of the decision process.

[Storm Chaser]

Nothing we do in CAP is that critical that would justify the potential for a mishap. If you don't feel well, then don't fly that sortie. Trust me, we'll manage.

[docsteve]

This is an issue that the FAA has been addressing for some time, especially with respect to the not so obvious health issues.  PAVE and ADM (PAVE = Personal/Aeronautical/enVironment/External [pressures]; ADM = Aeronautical Decision Making)  are examples of initiatives to increase pilot awareness regarding the risk factors associated with pilots' decreased abilities when -- for example -- illness or stress hinder the in-flight decision-making process. 

Anyone who does not do a full personal assessment -- medical, psychological -- violates multiple FARs, whether or not an accident results.  Fatigue, divorce, a death in the family (including a pet), a cold, an allergy, a hangover, any of these things may make a pilot medically deficient.  This is not comething for an AME to determine: it is something for the pilot him- or her-self to determine.

[Holding Pattern]

PAVE and ADM (PAVE = Personal/Aeronautical/enVironment/External [pressures]; ADM = Aeronautical Decision Making)

Thank you for taking the time to explain what your acronyms meant.

[SMWOG]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

[SarDragon]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

[Live2Learn]

OK.  I see a few specifics.  Useful, thanks.

Next a followup: example:  Here's a quote I heard one time from another crusty FRO/CAP Pilot:  "AAAAAA is a big boy, he can make the decision whether he's well enough to fly..."  Turned out AAAAA flew, but the 'big boy' had a few issues with congestion and ears... A while later his spouse commented to the sqdrn CC how sick he was when he got home...   How often do Bro CAP pilots (and the FRO) bear some responsibility to 'help' another pilot make a 'good' decision?   FWIW, according to the flight release page the FRO is to review "IMSAFE" with the pilot as a prerequisite of approving it...  and my read is also to AGREE with the assessment.  So, waddaya think?  What is 'too sick' to fly?  Where would you draw the red line in the sand (no political innuendo here).

[Eclipse]

How, exactly, does a female pilot "man up"?

[Live2Learn]

How, exactly, does a female pilot "man up"?

It's all in the language. 

[SMWOG]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

Depends. What does viloate mean?

[SarDragon]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

Broadly, yes.

From Membership Code of Conduct (emphasis mine):

The  discussion boards are intended to be an open community where all Civil Air Patrol members can participate freely.  However, keep in mind that a certain level of professionalism must be maintained on the discussion board.  Therefore, we have a code of conduct which all members will adhere to.

Please use proper spelling and grammar, as some homonyms have very different meanings.

PM also sent.

[SMWOG]

Ok

[etodd]

Ok

Ummmm. Yes, I see what you did there. LOL

[Mustang]

Ok, oh Wise Ones:

What's your interpretation of FAR 67 and 61.53?  This is a topic I think might be ripe for a safety discussion among pilots.  When should a good, upstanding CAP pilot self ground?  What specific acute illnesses or conditions do you thing it's ok to fly with, and what would illness/condition would self ground?

The basic guideline is simply this: don't fly if you don't feel well.  The consequences of not being fully alert and functioning can be simply too great to risk flying under the weather.  You're the best judge of whether you feel well enough and alert enough to fly.

Beyond that, AOPA has put together an excellent article on this subject:  Self-Grounding for Medical Deficiency

I'll highlight this section in particular:

Part 67 of the Federal Aviation Regulations specifically mentions 15 medical conditions that are disqualifying by "history or clinical diagnosis." These include:

   
• A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts
• A psychosis
• Bipolar disorder
• Substance dependence (including alcohol)
• Substance abuse
• Epilepsy
• Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Transient loss of nervous system function without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Diabetes requiring oral hypoglycemic medications or insulin
• Myocardial infarction
• Angina pectoris
• Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant
• Cardiac valve replacement
• Permanent cardiac pacemaker
• Heart replacement[/l][/l][/l][/l]

Any one of these conditions requires immediate self-grounding by the airman until cleared by the FAA (typically via a Special Issuance medical certificate).

For any other condition--including ANY new prescription medications--the best course of action is to consult your AME.  Most conditions not part of the "Big 15" listed above generally do not require grounding, though some may still require a Special Issuance for your next medical.

The Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners site is also a great reference.
[/list]

[Mustang]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm not a pilot, but the following just popped into my head: "am I in a state that would be considered OK during a mishap investigation?" I think of safety in general like that sometimes. "Am I doing something that I would feel confident in justifying to a mishap investigator?"

It's kind of a crap way to look at it but it works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

Considering nothing in CAP is that critical, including SAR, because we're never in the golden hour anyway,
I'd say 80% of the answer is that you are asking yourself the question to begin with.

Most incidents are a confluence of factors, and if you find yourself asking, "Hm...is this over the line?", you're probably already close.

The problem isn't necessarily the "thing" you're asking about, it's whether "thing 1" will degrade your abilities "just enough"
that when "thing 2" pops up you are now over your skis.

As is said in the riding community, "...you don't need to wear a helmet the days you are certain you won't crash...".

[PHall]

My one hard and fast rule about if I'm safe to fly, if I can't valsava, I ain't going.

[Live2Learn]

The basic guideline is simply this: don't fly if you don't feel well.  The consequences of not being fully alert and functioning can be simply too great to risk flying under the weather.  You're the best judge of whether you feel well enough and alert enough to fly.
[/size]
Beyond that, AOPA has put together an excellent article on this subject:  Self-Grounding for Medical Deficiency

I'll highlight this section in particular:

Part 67 of the Federal Aviation Regulations specifically mentions 15 medical conditions that are disqualifying by "history or clinical diagnosis." These include:

   
• A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts
• A psychosis
• Bipolar disorder
• Substance dependence (including alcohol)
• Substance abuse
• Epilepsy
• Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Transient loss of nervous system function without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Diabetes requiring oral hypoglycemic medications or insulin
• Myocardial infarction
• Angina pectoris
• Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant
• Cardiac valve replacement
• Permanent cardiac pacemaker
• Heart replacement[/l][/l][/l][/l]

Any one of these conditions requires immediate self-grounding by the airman until cleared by the FAA (typically via a Special Issuance medical certificate).

For any other condition--including ANY new prescription medications--the best course of action is to consult your AME.  Most conditions not part of the "Big 15" listed above generally do not require grounding, though some may still require a Special Issuance for your next medical.

The Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners site is also a great reference.
[/list]

K. "don't fly if you don't feel well" seems like a pretty good rule of thumb.  I've seen it written down elsewhere.  Stuff can go bad pretty quick - and often does in the many accident reports I read for self education and to satisfy my interest in the macabre.  The list of 15 or so really bad medical conditions is right from FAR 67's direction for AME's to "not issue" a medical certificate.  Any one of which is a slam dunk.  BUT, that brings up an interesting point.  How many of us know of at least one pilot who has one these conditions and (suspect?) they're flying minus a medical?  Of course, with CAP that ain't too likely since we have our most recent medical loaded on eServices.  Is the pilot of a CAP aircraft really the final decision maker for whether or not the sortie will launch - "cause of a little sniffle"?  Not from my read of FRO duties.  So, if pilot ICANDOIT runs through IMSAFE and says "yep, I'm really SAFE!" what would we expect from our FRO who can hear the uncharacteristic gravel in ICANDOIT's voicebox?  I think a little coaching and some mentoring might be the 'school' solution.  But, I also think that's a really tough call.  Would most of us FRO types maybe tend to err on the side of "'ICANDOIT' knows how they feel better than I do...?" Dunno. 

[docsteve]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

There used to be an AC with just such a list (not sure if it has been revised or cancelled), but in the afore-mentioned Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners there is a "do not issue medical" list.

However the point being emphasizes now is not what medicine you are on or how do you fell, but what happens when you "feel" fine but are not fit emotionally.  That's the point of PAVE and ADM (and one more, "I'm Safe" [Illness-Medication-Stress-Alcohol-Fatigue-Emotion (or, sometimes, Eating)]): assessing when one is really not fit to fly, with no formal standard in the rules.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Considering nothing in CAP is that critical, including SAR, because we're never in the golden hour anyway,

Eclipse, would you mind clarifying the above? Do you mean that we are never in a situation to save a life?

[Eclipse]

Considering nothing in CAP is that critical, including SAR, because we're never in the golden hour anyway,

Eclipse, would you mind clarifying the above? Do you mean that we are never in a situation to save a life?

No, I said CAP is never within the "golden hour", nor anywhere close to it.

Generally speaking, it requires at least two satellite passes before the NOC will authorize a mission, that's about 8 hours
(at least), added to the time before the first pass that the aircraft may be on the ground.

Add to that the reasonable expectation of 1-2 hours response time for a volunteer who is working or sleeping, and
may not be in direct proximity to the aircraft (few people in my wing live closer then 20-30 minutes from a plane).

My point was that we don't have crews hot-racking, nor do many wings (most?) have teams on standby - just an
alert officer or duty IC who starts calling people >after< a go-decision is made.

So no one finds themselves sliding down a fire pole after a retirement party, or running to a spinning aircraft with the alert sirens
rotating and everyone puling over to the side of the road while your crew van speeds to the flight line.

Therefore there is no reason to be even a "little" marginal in IMSAFE "for the cause".  Just don't answer the phone, and if you're
"the" guy, pass it to the next one on the list and move on.  Things get a lot more sporty if the PIC blows an eardrum mid-flight (or worse),
because of a bad head cold.

During SARExs, which are just practice, there is no excuse or reason whatsoever, as it's just practice. And in DR, there's plenty of advance
notice, at least of the incident itself (other then the rare earthquake, etc.

Yes, during actuals every minute counts - have your gear & uniform ready & use the Starbucks app to order in advance so you don't
have to wait in line, but CAP is not scaled or scoped for "emergency response" in the way the PD or FD understand that term, so
there's no excuse to play games with IMSAFE.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Thank you! Clear and concise as always.

That clarity of writing has been alarmingly lax on other posts in this thread.

No wht im sayn ppl?

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

There used to be an AC with just such a list (not sure if it has been revised or cancelled), but in the afore-mentioned Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners there is a "do not issue medical" list.

However the point being emphasizes now is not what medicine you are on or how do you fell, but what happens when you "feel" fine but are not fit emotionally.  That's the point of PAVE and ADM (and one more, "I'm Safe" [Illness-Medication-Stress-Alcohol-Fatigue-Emotion (or, sometimes, Eating)]): assessing when one is really not fit to fly, with no formal standard in the rules.

I keep seeing AC, do you mean MP (Mission Pilot) or the Mission Observer who is Mission Commander?

Let's use CAP specific terminology please.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

Can we use Aircrew instead of ppl, MP instead of AC?

[etodd]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

Can we use Aircrew instead of ppl, MP instead of AC?

Sometimes, reading these posts, I feel like I'm hearing Robin Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_aiDDU5z18

[docsteve]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

There used to be an AC with just such a list (not sure if it has been revised or cancelled), but in the afore-mentioned Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners there is a "do not issue medical" list.

However the point being emphasizes now is not what medicine you are on or how do you fell, but what happens when you "feel" fine but are not fit emotionally.  That's the point of PAVE and ADM (and one more, "I'm Safe" [Illness-Medication-Stress-Alcohol-Fatigue-Emotion (or, sometimes, Eating)]): assessing when one is really not fit to fly, with no formal standard in the rules.

I keep seeing AC, do you mean MP (Mission Pilot) or the Mission Observer who is Mission Commander?

Let's use CAP specific terminology please.

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

[stillamarine]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

There used to be an AC with just such a list (not sure if it has been revised or cancelled), but in the afore-mentioned Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners there is a "do not issue medical" list.

However the point being emphasizes now is not what medicine you are on or how do you fell, but what happens when you "feel" fine but are not fit emotionally.  That's the point of PAVE and ADM (and one more, "I'm Safe" [Illness-Medication-Stress-Alcohol-Fatigue-Emotion (or, sometimes, Eating)]): assessing when one is really not fit to fly, with no formal standard in the rules.

I keep seeing AC, do you mean MP (Mission Pilot) or the Mission Observer who is Mission Commander?

Let's use CAP specific terminology please.

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Not everyone here is a pilot because I sure didn't know that.

[jeders]

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Depending on your background, pilots also know AC to mean aircraft commander.

[THRAWN]

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Depending on your background, pilots also know AC to mean aircraft commander.

True, but context counts.

[jeders]

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Depending on your background, pilots also know AC to mean aircraft commander.

True, but context counts.

Yes it does, and here is that context.

There used to be an AC with just such a list (not sure if it has been revised or cancelled), but in the afore-mentioned Guide to Aviation Medical Examiners there is a "do not issue medical" list.

Emphasis mine. I've known many pilots who had their own lists for one thing or another. So, when you're used to AC meaning something like aircraft commander, it is reasonable to interpret the above as meaning that their used to be a pilot with such a list. Now that docsteve has clarified that he means advisory circular, I admit that it makes more sense. But you can at least see where that confusion can come from.

[docsteve]

And, the "AC" in question is 91.11-1, and it is listed (so has not been cancelled or revised) on the FAA Advisory Circular page for Part 91 (at https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/ and then scroll down and select "91").  Hard to believe it has not been revised since its first issue, but there it is.

What was FAR 91.11 has been renumbered at least once since the associated AC was issued (everyone knows "FAR"?), but I believe it is now 91.17.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Sorry, pilots know this; AC is Advisory Circular, which is issued by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Depending on your background, pilots also know AC to mean aircraft commander.

True, but context counts.

Yes, I meant t call out the use of AC and MO not your AC 😄