Deposits for uniforms

[Garibaldi]

Make an effort as in "I got in my car to recover the stuff but the car did not start?"

More like "I called them, left numerous voice mails, sent emails to their last good email address, which they all ignored. Here is documentation supporting my efforts."

[Luis R. Ramos]

In reality, it seems to me that things like this, lending of uniforms, activities done in support of cadet programs, activities done to meet the expectations of aerospace education will work better if there is close work with parents.

Some cadets could be expected to bring back the uniforms, however others will return them if you can make contacts with the parents explaining the issue(s) beforehand.

[THRAWN]

In reality, it seems to me that things like this, lending of uniforms, activities done in support of cadet programs, activities done to meet the expectations of aerospace education will work better if there is close work with parents.

Some cadets could be expected to bring back the uniforms, however others will return them if you can make contacts with the parents explaining the issue(s) beforehand.

Youre an educator. You of all people should know that parents or lack of is usually part of the problem.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I know. I am only reiterating it.

[lordmonar]

If there is money involved there is more likely that you will get them back.   

[baronet68]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

[NIN]

You do realize you just... Oh, my.

But. I. I can't even.

[Mitchell 1969]

If I were a LEO, I certainly would consider no response to repeated requests to return some borrowed stuff as "intent to permanently deprive..."

Would those be documented requests? Would that documentation outweigh a 16 year old saying "Nobody told me i had to give it back?" AND...When would  you establish the forming of that intent? Nine months ago, when the cadet got the items? Last week, when he left?

Trust me, it isn't as easy as you think. And it definitely isn't worth it.

[Mitchell 1969]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

I'm familiar with "theft by conversion." Again, intent must be established and documentation certainly helps.

As to a CAP member suiting up in a LEO uniform and admittedly intimidating people into shortcoming legal process under color of authority, my retired police chief mind is absolutely boggled. The discussion prior to now seems to have settled on whether or not the hassle factor is worth it. You've managed to elevate that into whether or not a career was worth it.

[lordmonar]

Not that I advocate going after ex-members for uniforms.

A call to the local police.  "We gave cadet X the following items on a hand receipt.  He has quit and needs to return the items.   We have contacted him on XYZ and sent a certified letter on Z+10.  We want to report the items as stolen.  Here is a copy of the hand receipt".

At that point.....we have reported them as stolen and the police will follow their protocol on what to do about it.

If they are super busy and don't feel like chasing down a 15 year kid over $40 of stuff....okay that's their call.
If not they will investigate and take appropriate action.

No different then if you call in and say "my neighbor borrowed the lawn mower and won't give it back".

So.....if getting the uniforms back is a big deal.....then the idea of a safety deposit starts looking better all the time.
That's why you do safety deposits in the first place.

The big question is is the effort of managing the safety deposits worth the benefits of getting back the uniforms.

[baronet68]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

I'm familiar with "theft by conversion." Again, intent must be established and documentation certainly helps.

As to a CAP member suiting up in a LEO uniform and admittedly intimidating people into shortcoming legal process under color of authority, my retired police chief mind is absolutely boggled. The discussion prior to now seems to have settled on whether or not the hassle factor is worth it. You've managed to elevate that into whether or not a career was worth it.

Maybe I didn't make that part clear... I did NOT suit up in a LEO uniform.  The deputy wore his Sheriff's Department uniform and I wore my CAP uniform ("each wearing our respective uniforms"). 

I originally got the idea from my own school district where, near the end of each school year, the "Book Patrol" (the school librarian with a local police officer in tow) would pull kids out of class who had long-standing overdue books.  The officer would ask, "Where's your book, Johnny?" and amazingly, 99% of the library's overdue books were returned the next day.

[Damron]

Is there anybody here that would considering calling law enforcement without discussing the matter with CAP's legal counsel?  Imagine how a cadet's life would be forever impacted by a criminal complaint and aggressive police officer.  Imagine the resulting civil suit.

If CAP felt strongly about this issue they would have said something beyond "an effort".   If CAP thought deposits were a good idea it would be policy.

Before you think about taking deposits think about the administrative requirements of such an effort.   If you can't afford to obtain uniforms, get busy fundraising.

[lordmonar]

So....the effort of fund raising is less then the effort of managing a deposit system?

Also....."we are suing because we would not return the uniforms they loaned us and then called the cops on us".....I don't see that one flying very far.

[Damron]

So....the effort of fund raising is less then the effort of managing a deposit system?

Also....."we are suing because we would not return the uniforms they loaned us and then called the cops on us".....I don't see that one flying very far.

To answer your question, yes, time spent fundraising is much more productive than exhaustive efforts to chase down uniforms.  CAP has a policy, the standard is "make an effort".  If they wanted more aggressive action, they would have described it.

One successful fundraising effort might cover all your uniform needs.   

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

[Pedfltmed22]

Thank you. That was the response I was looking for.

[tkelley004]

I was just wondering if any squadrons charge a deposit for uniforms? I seem to loose a lot of uniforms due to cadets leaving the program and not returning. BDU's are getting hard to come by anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions for this new commander?

I send a letter to folks once the membership expires, asking they return anything the unit provided at no cost and asking if they would donate any items they would no longer need to support future cadets. In most cases I get things back. But they are considered "expendable" and the only thing required to be returned was the issued from the Air Force uniforms (and I guess it applies to uniforms the cadet gets with a curry voucher) if the cadet left in the first year, I find in most cases, the membership just is not renewed (even if they have not been around for a bit) so they were in for a year, hard to force a return, but asking nice can work!

[lordmonar]

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

I don't know....I know a lot of IG folks.....and sometimes you wonder.    I don't know how it anyway it could be problematic.

[Damron]

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

I don't know....I know a lot of IG folks.....and sometimes you wonder.    I don't know how it anyway it could be problematic.

What don't you know? Have you presented this question to any IG staff? 

How could it be problematic?  Use your imagination.  From an accounting standpoint, you would have to carry every deposit as a liability or create an escrow account.   That's how accounting works.

Can you think of any other potential problems?  If not, I'd be happy to continue.

[lordmonar]

I already pointed out that you would have to keep some funds on hand....so it is not problematic.....just an accounting issue.

So what else you got? 

And no I did not take it to any IG types....because it has nothing to do with IG.  I would take it Finance and maybe legal...but not IG.

It is called staying in your lane.

[Damron]

I already pointed out that you would have to keep some funds on hand....so it is not problematic.....just an accounting issue.

So what else you got? 

And no I did not take it to any IG types....because it has nothing to do with IG.  I would take it Finance and maybe legal...but not IG.

It is called staying in your lane.

At least it has been suggested that there should be some guidance on this issue before implementation.