Deposits for uniforms

[Pedfltmed22]

I was just wondering if any squadrons charge a deposit for uniforms? I seem to loose a lot of uniforms due to cadets leaving the program and not returning. BDU's are getting hard to come by anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions for this new commander?

[RogueLeader]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

[C/ID-073]

At my squadron we have an area were we keep all our uniform supplies and normally we just give it out, but I do understand BDU's are hard to come by. Normally, if we don't have something we tell people to order it on vanguard (which is also good for sizes). We also have the same issue with cadets taking uniforms when they leave. We don't give uniforms out until our cadets are finished with the new cadet program, and we ask that people give their uniforms back when they leave. But there is always going to be those cadets who take uniforms...there's nothing you can really do about it unless you have all the cadets buy their uniforms, then they can keep them.
That seems to work pretty well for us, but it also depends how much uniform supplies you have. Hope I could help.
Respectfully,
C/Capt. Kubik

[Pedfltmed22]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I didn't know you could issue uniforms through ORMS. I will look into that. Thank you for the info.

[kwe1009]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I haven't heard of that being done.  Does it help with getting uniforms returned?  Do you actually call the police when a uniform isn't returned?  If anyone is doing this successfully I would love to hear about it as I know this is a big issue across CAP.

[Damron]

ORMS tracks non-expendable CAP property but makes specific (and exceptional) reference to the Cadet Uniform Program, which does not include BDU's.

With regards to uniforms issued via the Cadet Uniform Program, there is a requirement that the commander attempt to recover uniforms if a cadet leaves the program in the first year.  The wording suggests that there is no enforcement mechanism and efforts be limited.   Generally, minors  can't enter into contracts so legal remedies are probably precluded ... and silly.

With regards to BDU's, I would consider them expendable property and exempt from ORMS.  If squadrons were purchasing new uniforms they might be considered non-expendable but I think that's a stretch.   Our squadron attempts to provide cadets with BDU's acquired via private sector surplus retailers and documents these purchases in our financial statements but we never thought they belong in ORMS.   

If your squadron struggles to afford to provide used BDU's to 10, 20, 30 cadets per year, you need to address your fundraising shortcomings. 

Deposits?  This seems like a pain in the butt that isn't worth the time, hassle, and financial accountability.

[RogueLeader]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I haven't heard of that being done.  Does it help with getting uniforms returned?  Do you actually call the police when a uniform isn't returned?  If anyone is doing this successfully I would love to hear about it as I know this is a big issue across CAP.

I've heard anecdotal evidence that it works some of the time.  I guess it depends if a Sheriff or Police Chief wants to take time with it.  Most people that I know of don't like having a LE Official walk up to their door, and say "Do you have property that belongs to CAP?  Because they really need it back."  Of course, if they answer no; then it is up to you to decide if it is worth the effort to pursue  the action further, even with the documentation.  To me, that's as far as I'd take it.  I'm not going through the expense of trying to get $100 worth of used uniforms back.

That being said, most of the BDU's that I've seen issued are almost to out of their service life, so I've never made an issue of it.  When I was a Squadron Commander; it was my policy is that if they made it a year, they could keep what was issued.  If they did not last that year- and I did have a couple- I made them turn in their Blues that they got for free.  I also asked them to donate whatever other uniforms they had to the program.  I had 1 that did donate, and one that decided not to. Which is fine.  They both turned in their Blues.

[Damron]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

[kwe1009]

One thing that we started in my squadron last year was having cadets purchase the uniforms from us initially and then free exchanges for larger sizes, etc for as long as the cadet was in the program.  The prices we charged were at least half of what Vanguard was selling.  For BDUs, we charge about half of what the local surplus stores are charging for used.  This has worked pretty well so far.  For the cadet who leaves the program, we offer to buy back the uniforms at the same price that we sold them. 

This is basically the same as a deposit but this way we don't have to track who paid the deposit and who didn't.

[RogueLeader]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

Their parents did sign a contract when they approved their children's membership that includes agreeing to follow orders and regulations set by the organization.  If a cadet is issued property of CAP, regardless of the cost, it belongs to CAP and the Organization has the right to collect it back. 

That being said, I have never used that, nor would I.  I would simply write the uniforms off, and call it a day.  It is, however, an option that could used.

[Garibaldi]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

Their parents did sign a contract when they approved their children's membership that includes agreeing to follow orders and regulations set by the organization.  If a cadet is issued property of CAP, regardless of the cost, it belongs to CAP and the Organization has the right to collect it back. 

That being said, I have never used that, nor would I.  I would simply write the uniforms off, and call it a day.  It is, however, an option that could used.

To me, it gives the new cadet a sense of accountability in some cases. Like, this is real, they're making me SIGN FOR THE THINGS.

I highly doubt that a LEO would try to intervene. Maybe a lawyer, since the parents signed as Rogue said.

[RogueLeader]

Like I said, I have anecdotal evidence that it has happened.   To me, its just not worth it to go the LE angle.  It's so much easier to bring the core values as a reminder of their obligations, not to mention the Cadet Oath.  If either of those mean anything at all to the cadet, they will return the uniform items.

[Damron]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

Who is "you"?  CAP's legal counsel has never gone after a cadet over a uniform and never will. As far as surplus BDU's go, they should not be entered into ORMS unless that directive comes down from the top - and it won't. 

[Spam]

Uniforms are considered expendable, non tracked items, and shouldn't be entered into ORMS.

Nonexpendable items would be radios, laptops, etc. It is required to issue them to individuals online via ORMS, and I recommend generating a hand receipt Form 37 for the individual to emphasize "this is in your keeping, if you trash or lose it, you should PAY FOR IT".

Expendable items would include uniforms, MREs, and non durable things that we expect to wear out and not to get back (at a USAF level, not a local level).  It would be very appropriate for us to emphasize that these are not giveaways, but that at a local level we need to pull together as a team to ensure that any expendables we aren't using any more should in fairness be turned back in, rather than hoarded or used for non-CAP purposes (e.g. paintball games, hunting).

I recommend tracking uniform and field gear issues via CAP Form 111, http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_093003105504.pdf. Having these printed out in an imposing looking "S4 Logistics Orders Book", and having your LGS require members to actually SIGN for them can create and reinforce the mental sense of "issue/return" responsibility rather than "yeah, free stuff for me to keep".

V/R
Spam

[lordmonar]

I have never herd about anyone asking for a deposit for uniforms.
But the more I sit here and think about it.......it does have some merit.

Pros: 
A) It establishes to the cadet that the uniforms are valuable.
B) It will help in the recovery of said uniforms.
C) If people walk with said uniforms....it is another source of revenue for the unit.

Cons:
A) We are adding more up-front costs to the member.
B) We have to track and account for that deposit.
C) We have to make sure we keep sufficient funds on hand to pay back a mass exodus worst case scenario.

[RogueLeader]

You can actually use ORMS for expendable property, there is the electronic 111 in ORMS if I recall correctly.

I should also note that BDU's gotten from DRMO (or whatever the new name is) are REQUIRED to be returned to DRMO at the end of their serviceable life for disposal.

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

Who is "you"?  CAP's legal counsel has never gone after a cadet over a uniform and never will. As far as surplus BDU's go, they should not be entered into ORMS unless that directive comes down from the top - and it won't. 

"You" is the Commander of an organization.  The few stories I've heard, is that cadets in a unit, didn't return uniform items, and the Commander took the signed CAPF 111 to a Sheriff and asked him to help return the items.  The Sheriff got the items returned.  I do not know names or dates. Yes, this is hearsay.

Would I do it? No.  Could that be done? Sure.  Would it go very far? .001% Chance or smaller.  Would legal back you on old uniforms?  I doubt it.

Depending on the situation, the threat of an action maybe enough to get them to do the right thing.

[RogueLeader]

Cons:
A) We are adding more up-front costs to the member.

Even charging a deposit for uniforms, that is still less than the costs of buying brand new uniforms. Particularly as they have the option of getting uniforms from supply at a rate less than new uniforms- which are always an option.  It also creates more buy-in into the program, by having more skin in the game than just the $28 for membership- or whatever the cost in your wing is.

[Garibaldi]

I have a friend cycling out of the Army on a medical retirement. I asked her, somewhat jokingly, if there were any items she was keeping that I could either talk her out of or buy from her. She told me that the Army takes back EVERYTHING when a Soldier leaves, except for items that make skin contact, such as hats, trousers, t-shirts, socks, blouses, and so on (she has the option of buying some of the equipment at market value). Doesn't matter if it's after 6 days or 6 years. I would think that the same should apply to CAP, since we potentially have more than one cadet using a set of BDUs before the service life is reached. Usually, the policy in the units I've been in is that after a year, whatever uniform you're issued is yours if you've stayed an active member, or if you've outgrown what was given you you can trade it in. This means that cadet A, who's been in since age 12 and hit a growth spurt at age 12.5, would turn in the uniform he was issued for one that fits, and new cadet B, the same size as cadet A, could be issued the same uniform. And so on. In a unit as small as ours, with limited resources and storage space, the probability of a uniform being used by more than 1 cadet is higher than, say, Nellis Composite (just the first one that came to mind).

[SMWOG]

When I was a squadron CC,we usally could get cadets into.uniforms at no cost to the cadet. On one occasion we did not have shoes for a cadet. We provided cadet and parent with info on where to purchase and her response"I should not have to buy these,cant you?"

I have found that members who purchase their own stuff tend to take care of it better.

[stillamarine]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

As an LEO we can't even go after our own Explorers that don't return their uniforms. There's an almost minuscule chance they'd go after someone for a CAP uniform.

[RogueLeader]

When I was a squadron CC,we usally could get cadets into.uniforms at no cost to the cadet. On one occasion we did not have shoes for a cadet. We provided cadet and parent with info on where to purchase and her response"I should not have to buy these,cant you?"

I have found that members who purchase their own stuff tend to take care of it better.

On the first meeting that a cadet attends, they and their parents get the usual what to expect from us, here's what we expect from you deal.  Part of that is uniforms, and that while we try to supply what we can, if we can not, then the expectation is that they are expected to acquire it.  I haven't had anyone tell me that our unit should pay the money for it.  Now, some members do purchase things for the unit, but we tell people that nothing is guaranteed.

[Spaceman3750]

I have never herd about anyone asking for a deposit for uniforms.
But the more I sit here and think about it.......it does have some merit.

Pros: 
A) It establishes to the cadet that the uniforms are valuable.
B) It will help in the recovery of said uniforms.
C) If people walk with said uniforms....it is another source of revenue for the unit.

Cons:
A) We are adding more up-front costs to the member.
B) We have to track and account for that deposit.
C) We have to make sure we keep sufficient funds on hand to pay back a mass exodus worst case scenario.

How would this work with WBP? I can't just call up the wing administrator and ask her to cut a check. I either have to have a receipt for reimbursement, or be arranging a cash advance, for which I will be expected to provide receipts and return unused funds.

[lordmonar]

Making a receipt is fairly easy.

The member returns the uniform, you submit your check request to WBP.

[THRAWN]

Making a receipt is fairly easy.

The member returns the uniform, you submit your check request to WBP.

Can you PLEASE stop making things easier than they have to be?

[Pedfltmed22]

We have a booster club that helps with our funding so that's not the issue. We just seem to be going through uniforms like crazy. Both BDU's and Blues. Coats and Dress Coats(not sure of the proper term). Our booster club president as well as the logistics officer suggested the  deposit as a way to make sure we got back the uniforms. From what I have been reading it does not seem like its a good idea.

[RogueLeader]

I won't say that a deposit system won't work, or that it is necessarily a bad idea.  Particularly if cadets are getting brand new uniform items and not sticking around.  I would definitely keep those deposits noted on your units Finance books.  Or, cut your unit out of it, and let your Booster Club deal with those items and deposits. 
Cadet:  I need a complete Blues Uniform.
Supply Officer:  Please go see Mr. Jones.
Mr Jones: I need a deposit of $45.
Cadet: Here is your deposit.
Mr Jones: Here is your Blues
. . .
Commander: Great looking uniform:
Cadet: Thank you, Sir.
. . . .
Cadet: Mr Jones, Can I get my deposit back?
Mr Jones: Thank you for the Blues back in serviceable condition, here are your $45.

As opposed to the money going into Wing Banker Program, and keeping track of it in your budget, which would change.  Having to get Finance Committee approval anytime a deposit has to go back, then wait for a check to get cut.

[lordmonar]

They should not be used to circumvent WBP operations.

Whether you keep track of the deposits in you budget or your booster club....you still got to keep track of it.
And getting the financial committee's approval should take like 3 seconds.
Wing cuts the check and mails it directly to the ex-member.

[Spam]

Second that wise advice.  You can get yourself in real trouble, quickly, by using booster clubs for normal business operations for the unit.  Keep the streams separated and only use booster clubs for those activities specifically authorized for them per the regs.


CAPR 173-4 16 DECEMBER 2014 (Fund Raising) governs booster clubs, while CAPR 173-1 15 NOVEMBER 2012 governs financial procedures and accounting. 173-4 specifically prohibits transfer of unit funds to booster clubs (citation: Section 16.g) so any such back and forth is expressly against policy.


Lordmonar is on target: finance committee meetings can, if run right, be done quickly and efficiently. I held one last night in the parking lot after opening while observing my A Flight drilling with rifles... we held a quick audit of members to determine a quorum, (3 of my 4 Dept. Heads, plus me, plus my FM), reviewed old action items, discussed outstanding purchase needs (a few hundred for a prototype tent, a few hundred for some go-bag kits for the truck, etc.) then polled for dept. needs, verbally voted on checks to be cut, and my FM went off to type up his notes. 6 minutes or so, total. Plus, check requests for $45 don't require a full Finance Committee authorization any ways, just have the FM put the name and address on the form and pull that trigger, should have a check mailed direct to the member in a week or two.


If you must establish a deposit, then you should accept the necessary burden on the FM of maintaining and tracking a running subaccount balance for reserves in your annual financial plan, should you have a bunch of cadets graduate/move and push a "run on the bank". Don't get in trouble short cutting the wing banker program - booster clubs are for fund raising - ONE WAY TRANSFERS, period.


V/R
Spam

[Pedfltmed22]

So much to learn about being a commander and so little time.....wow

[Hyperion]

I created a supply form to fill out for anyone who requests uniform items. We keep the form, unsigned, and make alterations with a pencil whenever necessary. When the member leaves the unit. and everything has been returned, the officer and person in question sign off at the bottom declaring everything is accounted for.



BDUs are unisex, but ABUs are not, so that's why the Sex category is included (so I don't have to edit it in the future because I'm lazy). You can just ignore it for now.

If anyone would like the original sized PDF then please let me know.

[Mitchell 1969]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

As an LEO we can't even go after our own Explorers that don't return their uniforms. There's an almost minuscule chance they'd go after someone for a CAP uniform.

Less than minuscule.

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive. In short, the whole deal reeks of, at best, failure to return borrowed property, a civil matter. LEO could ask to see issue forms, receipts, letters sent to recover the property etc., but I doubt that any of it would sway a LEO to take a theft report and get detectives involved.  For one thing, there would probably not be any document specifying the loan period, and I doubt that there would be anything resembling a valid contract.  (Even overdue rental cars don't get reported as stolen until a fixed time has elapsed, usually 30 days. Anything prior to that is simply failure to follow contract terms). More likely the squadron commander would receive a suggestion to seek legal counsel.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If I were a LEO, I certainly would consider no response to repeated requests to return some borrowed stuff as "intent to permanently deprive..."

[THRAWN]

If I were a LEO, I certainly would consider no response to repeated requests to return some borrowed stuff as "intent to permanently deprive..."

And you would be partially correct. However, with out the other two elements, there is no crime.

[Damron]

"If a cadet leaves the program during the first year the unit commander should make an effort to retrieve the uniform from the cadet."


Make an effort and you've satisfied the regulation. 

[Al Sayre]

I would hazard a guess that the bad press that could be garnered by trying to get a uniform back though law enforcement involvement is hardly worth the cost,  Can you see the headlines:  "Civil Air Patrol has 14 year old arrested for $20 used uniform."  Not a good idea...

[Garibaldi]

I would hazard a guess that the bad press that could be garnered by trying to get a uniform back though law enforcement involvement is hardly worth the cost,  Can you see the headlines:  "Civil Air Patrol has 14 year old arrested for $20 used uniform."  Not a good idea...

Better than "Two CAP cadets involved in deadly love triangle." And I have heard of a Spaatz cadet on the run in Mexico trying to avoid a grand theft auto rap.

[THRAWN]

I would hazard a guess that the bad press that could be garnered by trying to get a uniform back though law enforcement involvement is hardly worth the cost,  Can you see the headlines:  "Civil Air Patrol has 14 year old arrested for $20 used uniform."  Not a good idea...

Better than "Two CAP cadets involved in deadly love triangle." And I have heard of a Spaatz cadet on the run in Mexico trying to avoid a grand theft auto rap.

Or "Former LA Wing Cadet assassinates President..."

[Garibaldi]

I would hazard a guess that the bad press that could be garnered by trying to get a uniform back though law enforcement involvement is hardly worth the cost,  Can you see the headlines:  "Civil Air Patrol has 14 year old arrested for $20 used uniform."  Not a good idea...

Better than "Two CAP cadets involved in deadly love triangle." And I have heard of a Spaatz cadet on the run in Mexico trying to avoid a grand theft auto rap.

Or "Former LA Wing Cadet assassinates President..."

Yeah...kind of forgot that one. I'd much rather see headlines like "Former CAP cadet and AF Fighter pilot nurses shot-up A-10 back to safety" and "Former CAP cadet flies high in Air Force Thunderbirds". And "Former CAP Cadet and current Air Force Three-star to head up AF Logistics". And "Former CAP cadet and Air Force Colonel returns from ISS, remains active in Texas CAP unit"

All true stories.

[NIN]

I would hazard a guess that the bad press that could be garnered by trying to get a uniform back though law enforcement involvement is hardly worth the cost,  Can you see the headlines:  "Civil Air Patrol has 14 year old arrested for $20 used uniform."  Not a good idea...

I seem to recall a situation in the early 1990s with a deputy sheriff showing up to query a kid about property he was issued....

(My hazy memory says that the young man quit CAP in a huff over something and when asked to return the field gear he was issued, he or his parents said "Screw you, we sold all that crap to the local surplus store and there's not a thing you can do about it!"  The nice deputy standing on their front porch holding a copy of a hand-receipt and a report of stolen property changed quite a few minds. The very next week all the stuff was in a pile at the unit meeting)

Then again:

Uniform Return Agreement

Civil Air Patrol is often able to obtain some uniform components for use by active Cadets. As these become available, the Squadron will provide them to Cadets on an as-needed and as-available basis. Often, these uniform components include the trousers and shirt for the blues and/or BDU (utility) uniforms. Sometimes, other items are available as well. All uniform items provided to Cadets free of charge by Civil Air Patrol must be returned if the Cadet decides to become inactive in the cadet program.

Cadets and their parents must agree to return uniform items to Civil Air Patrol when those items are no longer being used by the Cadet for Civil Air Patrol purposes.

I am applying for membership in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program. I acknowledge that Civil Air Patrol may provide me with uniform items to use during my participation in the Civil Air Patrol program. I agree to return these items to Civil Air Patrol upon request, and, in any case, upon deciding to end my participation in the Civil Air Patrol program.
         
________________________             _________________________________
Cadet's Name (printed)                   Cadet's Signature

I am the parent/guardian of the above-named Civil Air Patrol Cadet applicant. I acknowledge that Civil Air Patrol may provide my son/daughter with uniform items to use during his/her participation in the Civil Air Patrol program. I agree to return these items to Civil Air Patrol upon request, and, in any case, upon my son/daughter deciding to end his/her participation in the Civil Air Patrol program.

_________________________      ________________________________   
Parent/Guardian Name (printed)      Parent/Guardian Signature

It might not be tremendously "enforceable," but it sets an expectation level with the parents.

         

[Luis R. Ramos]

Make an effort as in "I got in my car to recover the stuff but the car did not start?"

[Garibaldi]

Make an effort as in "I got in my car to recover the stuff but the car did not start?"

More like "I called them, left numerous voice mails, sent emails to their last good email address, which they all ignored. Here is documentation supporting my efforts."

[Luis R. Ramos]

In reality, it seems to me that things like this, lending of uniforms, activities done in support of cadet programs, activities done to meet the expectations of aerospace education will work better if there is close work with parents.

Some cadets could be expected to bring back the uniforms, however others will return them if you can make contacts with the parents explaining the issue(s) beforehand.

[THRAWN]

In reality, it seems to me that things like this, lending of uniforms, activities done in support of cadet programs, activities done to meet the expectations of aerospace education will work better if there is close work with parents.

Some cadets could be expected to bring back the uniforms, however others will return them if you can make contacts with the parents explaining the issue(s) beforehand.

Youre an educator. You of all people should know that parents or lack of is usually part of the problem.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I know. I am only reiterating it.

[lordmonar]

If there is money involved there is more likely that you will get them back.   

[baronet68]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

[NIN]

You do realize you just... Oh, my.

But. I. I can't even.

[Mitchell 1969]

If I were a LEO, I certainly would consider no response to repeated requests to return some borrowed stuff as "intent to permanently deprive..."

Would those be documented requests? Would that documentation outweigh a 16 year old saying "Nobody told me i had to give it back?" AND...When would  you establish the forming of that intent? Nine months ago, when the cadet got the items? Last week, when he left?

Trust me, it isn't as easy as you think. And it definitely isn't worth it.

[Mitchell 1969]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

I'm familiar with "theft by conversion." Again, intent must be established and documentation certainly helps.

As to a CAP member suiting up in a LEO uniform and admittedly intimidating people into shortcoming legal process under color of authority, my retired police chief mind is absolutely boggled. The discussion prior to now seems to have settled on whether or not the hassle factor is worth it. You've managed to elevate that into whether or not a career was worth it.

[lordmonar]

Not that I advocate going after ex-members for uniforms.

A call to the local police.  "We gave cadet X the following items on a hand receipt.  He has quit and needs to return the items.   We have contacted him on XYZ and sent a certified letter on Z+10.  We want to report the items as stolen.  Here is a copy of the hand receipt".

At that point.....we have reported them as stolen and the police will follow their protocol on what to do about it.

If they are super busy and don't feel like chasing down a 15 year kid over $40 of stuff....okay that's their call.
If not they will investigate and take appropriate action.

No different then if you call in and say "my neighbor borrowed the lawn mower and won't give it back".

So.....if getting the uniforms back is a big deal.....then the idea of a safety deposit starts looking better all the time.
That's why you do safety deposits in the first place.

The big question is is the effort of managing the safety deposits worth the benefits of getting back the uniforms.

[baronet68]

Laws vary from state to state, but theft generally has these elements:

Taking; carrying away; of the property of another; with intent to permanently deprive.

Were a LEO to be called to a CAP meeting to "investigate" the "theft" of uniforms, s/he would look to see if the elements are met, learning quickly that there was no "taking," as the property wasn't taken, it was loaned. There would also be an absence of intent to permanently deprive... <snip>

You're talking about theft, but when it comes to these uniform items it's not "theft"... it's "theft by conversion".

Theft by conversion occurs when a person lawfully obtains possession of property belonging to another (such as CAP uniforms belonging to CAP and given for the purposes of wearing at CAP activities) and then the person converts the property for their own use (which would include things like selling, using for hunting, making pillows from fabric, etc,) and without the original owner's permission.

As far as law enforcement involvement... I've actually done this before and it works best in a smaller town or county.  In my case, circa 1992, a friendly neighborhood Deputy and I (each wearing our respective uniforms) simply knocked on Cadet Snuffy's door and asked about the CAP property.  Had the door been slammed in our faces, there was nothing that was going to be done about it.  Mom or dad got flustered at the sight of a cop on their doorstep and junior was sent to go get his uniforms/equipment.  Had a couple of people promise to bring it out the the airport the following Wednesday and one of them actually did.

It was intimidation, but it generally worked.  In retrospect, it wasn't really successful because while we got stuff back, it would have been better if we had a program filled with enough activity and excitement where they wouldn't have dropped out in the first place.  We recruited a ton of new members, issued lots of donated surplus uniforms (we were swimming in them at the time), but didn't really have a plan when it came to retention... so a year later we were back to our original levels.

I'm familiar with "theft by conversion." Again, intent must be established and documentation certainly helps.

As to a CAP member suiting up in a LEO uniform and admittedly intimidating people into shortcoming legal process under color of authority, my retired police chief mind is absolutely boggled. The discussion prior to now seems to have settled on whether or not the hassle factor is worth it. You've managed to elevate that into whether or not a career was worth it.

Maybe I didn't make that part clear... I did NOT suit up in a LEO uniform.  The deputy wore his Sheriff's Department uniform and I wore my CAP uniform ("each wearing our respective uniforms"). 

I originally got the idea from my own school district where, near the end of each school year, the "Book Patrol" (the school librarian with a local police officer in tow) would pull kids out of class who had long-standing overdue books.  The officer would ask, "Where's your book, Johnny?" and amazingly, 99% of the library's overdue books were returned the next day.

[Damron]

Is there anybody here that would considering calling law enforcement without discussing the matter with CAP's legal counsel?  Imagine how a cadet's life would be forever impacted by a criminal complaint and aggressive police officer.  Imagine the resulting civil suit.

If CAP felt strongly about this issue they would have said something beyond "an effort".   If CAP thought deposits were a good idea it would be policy.

Before you think about taking deposits think about the administrative requirements of such an effort.   If you can't afford to obtain uniforms, get busy fundraising.

[lordmonar]

So....the effort of fund raising is less then the effort of managing a deposit system?

Also....."we are suing because we would not return the uniforms they loaned us and then called the cops on us".....I don't see that one flying very far.

[Damron]

So....the effort of fund raising is less then the effort of managing a deposit system?

Also....."we are suing because we would not return the uniforms they loaned us and then called the cops on us".....I don't see that one flying very far.

To answer your question, yes, time spent fundraising is much more productive than exhaustive efforts to chase down uniforms.  CAP has a policy, the standard is "make an effort".  If they wanted more aggressive action, they would have described it.

One successful fundraising effort might cover all your uniform needs.   

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

[Pedfltmed22]

Thank you. That was the response I was looking for.

[tkelley004]

I was just wondering if any squadrons charge a deposit for uniforms? I seem to loose a lot of uniforms due to cadets leaving the program and not returning. BDU's are getting hard to come by anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions for this new commander?

I send a letter to folks once the membership expires, asking they return anything the unit provided at no cost and asking if they would donate any items they would no longer need to support future cadets. In most cases I get things back. But they are considered "expendable" and the only thing required to be returned was the issued from the Air Force uniforms (and I guess it applies to uniforms the cadet gets with a curry voucher) if the cadet left in the first year, I find in most cases, the membership just is not renewed (even if they have not been around for a bit) so they were in for a year, hard to force a return, but asking nice can work!

[lordmonar]

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

I don't know....I know a lot of IG folks.....and sometimes you wonder.    I don't know how it anyway it could be problematic.

[Damron]

As I write this, I'm at our region conference.  When I mentioned the subject of deposits the IG folks shook their heads in disbelief, confirming that it likely would be problematic for units taking deposits.

I don't know....I know a lot of IG folks.....and sometimes you wonder.    I don't know how it anyway it could be problematic.

What don't you know? Have you presented this question to any IG staff? 

How could it be problematic?  Use your imagination.  From an accounting standpoint, you would have to carry every deposit as a liability or create an escrow account.   That's how accounting works.

Can you think of any other potential problems?  If not, I'd be happy to continue.

[lordmonar]

I already pointed out that you would have to keep some funds on hand....so it is not problematic.....just an accounting issue.

So what else you got? 

And no I did not take it to any IG types....because it has nothing to do with IG.  I would take it Finance and maybe legal...but not IG.

It is called staying in your lane.

[Damron]

I already pointed out that you would have to keep some funds on hand....so it is not problematic.....just an accounting issue.

So what else you got? 

And no I did not take it to any IG types....because it has nothing to do with IG.  I would take it Finance and maybe legal...but not IG.

It is called staying in your lane.

At least it has been suggested that there should be some guidance on this issue before implementation.

[Al Sayre]

CAPR 173-1 Para 6.l:"l. Units below wing level will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts.
Reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenditures will be made by forwarding approved expenses
and supporting documentation to wing headquarters for payment."