2B OR NOT 2B

[CAPDCCMOM]

A somewhat joking title for no laughing matter. When you have a member that has made the same mistake twice, has been given the Second Chance and blew it again, what do you do? The offenses are certainly in the 2B criteria, but there is also the human element and wanting to save a lost soul. At the same time there is the Integrity of the program. 

[LSThiker]

A somewhat joking title for no laughing matter. When you have a member that has made the same mistake twice, has been given the Second Chance and blew it again, what do you do? The offenses are certainly in the 2B criteria, but there is also the human element and wanting to save a lost soul. At the same time there is the Integrity of the program. 

Would need a lot more information, IMO.  Is this a cadet or senior?  How old?  What are the circumstances surrounding the incident?  What were the circumstances surrounding the previous incident?  What were the correct actions taken for the previous incident?

[arajca]

Without know the details (and posting them here would be inappropriate, IMO), it's hard to determine. Something to consider, is there documentation regarding the initial mistake and does it say something to the effect of "If you blow it again, you're out"? Also, how close is the member to renewing? Perhaps a discussion about them not renewing would be less painful.

I'd suggest getting a legal officer, wing or unit, involved in the discussion.

[Flying Pig]

You use the word mistake.  Which implies it is unintentional.  Just tell us the story already !!

[CAPDCCMOM]

I realize that I have not supplied any real details. I am sorry for that. I will happily PM anyone that may wish to give advise. This form could be a wake up call to a Cadet, or a nail in the coffin.

[FW]

PM me if you want, however I would suggest a "progressive" approach before taking the final solution to your problem.  We need to teach our cadets the values we inculcate, and expect them to adhere. Cadets are, by definition, learning.  Show them how it's done, and follow thru.  Counseling, reprimands, suspensions, etc; are part of the process.  So, unless the cadet did something well outside the norm, take another route.

[kwe1009]

This is a discussion that should take place within the chain of command.  I'm assuming by your screen name that you are a DCC.  You need to talk to your squadron commander and also your Group/Wing Cadet Programs people to get direction here.  Be very careful about sharing details outside of the chain of command.  Depending on the issue, you could be getting yourself into trouble as well.

[ALORD]

The 2B process is the mechanism of last resort. I was involved with initiating the process one time, and it took almost two years to resolve, with I.G. Investigations, counter-claims, and every witness treated as a suspect. This involved a Senior Member who was deranged and had made death threats, etc. The process was expedited when several squadron members retained an attorney to began the filing of a restraining order, and the group legal officer ( May he live forever in the halls of Valhalla) jumped in hard and fast.  If you are familiar with the old phrase " This is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you" you may find it is particularly applicable, or potentially applicable, to the 2B process. ( An adversarial as opposed to an administrative 2B) Please try every remedy first ( And this most emphatically does not mean discussing the details here!) Senior Members and Cadets may find that they have a happier home in a new squadron, assignment, or in the case of a cadet, a short break from CAP to get their life (School, etc.) in order, or even trying to work through a mediator ( Chaplain, Legal officer, custodian, etc) The 2B process, or initiating an I.G. investigation ( very often linked circumstances) is like a 911 call; it's very difficult to un-ring that bell once the alarm is pulled. Of course, if immediate threat to life and safety are involved, take whatever immediate steps are required to protect your people, but otherwise, kick it up the chain of command, and be prepared for an unpleasant experience.

[arajca]

To all, given the information provided via PM, this is not your typical misbehavior. As the cadet was already given a chance to turn around, but failed to do so, therefore, given the seriousness of the infraction, a 2B may very well be warranted. Unfortunately, letting the clock run out is also not a realistic option. Hence my advice to contact a legal officer for more appropriate advice.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Thank you to all for the help and encouragement today. I thank every one that PM'd for the advice and and support. I know that I could have put my head on the chopping block, and I accept that fact. I will always try to err on the side of Mercy, when I can. I will be in touch with those that I need to be in touch with, and have already started said process. Thank you again for discretion, diplomacy and support. For those that pray among us, please keep a poor soul in our prayers even if I can not give a name. And if you don't pray, please send positive and healing energy. It will find where it needs to go.

[lordmonar]

To all, given the information provided via PM, this is not your typical misbehavior. As the cadet was already given a chance to turn around, but failed to do so, therefore, given the seriousness of the infraction, a 2B may very well be warranted. Unfortunately, letting the clock run out is also not a realistic option. Hence my advice to contact a legal officer for more appropriate advice.

It is good that you tell here to seek advice.....but Legal is not the who you need to go to.
You need to seek advice from the next in the chain of command as this is a command decision not a legal one.
I've seen legal at all levels get too wrapped up over "legal" details that they forget the big picture sometimes.
If legals does come into it (which I can't imagine why for a membership unless we are going to sue, are getting sued, or there is some contract) let wing seek their advice.  keeps the chain of command nice and clean......if the process goes south later.

YMMV.

[NC Hokie]

Unfortunately, letting the clock run out is also not a realistic option.

IMHO, letting the clock run out (assuming this to mean that the offender's membership expires) never works for disciplinary issues, because there is no way to deny renewal.

[JeffDG]

To all, given the information provided via PM, this is not your typical misbehavior. As the cadet was already given a chance to turn around, but failed to do so, therefore, given the seriousness of the infraction, a 2B may very well be warranted. Unfortunately, letting the clock run out is also not a realistic option. Hence my advice to contact a legal officer for more appropriate advice.

It is good that you tell here to seek advice.....but Legal is not the who you need to go to.
You need to seek advice from the next in the chain of command as this is a command decision not a legal one.
I've seen legal at all levels get too wrapped up over "legal" details that they forget the big picture sometimes.
If legals does come into it (which I can't imagine why for a membership unless we are going to sue, are getting sued, or there is some contract) let wing seek their advice.  keeps the chain of command nice and clean......if the process goes south later.

YMMV.

I would suggest involving JA when there is a command decision that something is likely to turn into a 2B.  And the reason is to ensure that appropriate process is followed to finalize that decision, not as any kind of arbiter of whether the decision is a wise one.  Wisdom of the decision is the prerogative of the commander.  Legal should advise the commander on the process to make the decision.

A member who is proposed to be terminated has rights under CAP regulations.  It is not a simple process, it is one that must be carefully managed.  The reason being that any failure to follow the process may give the member the right to have the termination overturned.  And don't forget, due process is meant to give the member the right to challenge charges against them BEFORE a final decision is made.

[lordmonar]

Final is a very strong word.

The regs are clear what is and is not grounds for termination.  JA does not come in to at all.

Like I said.....Legal guys look at things differently.   And yes a commander should seek advice if they need it.   But not a squadron level.   Seek advice from channels is all I'm saying.

Talk to your wing commander (group if you have them) and if they want to seek legal advice....or any other type of advice....good on them.   A squadron commander should be consulting the with the regulations and their personnel officer and with higher head quarters....not going VFR to wing legal.

[MSG Mac]

There used to be a Form 2C, which when submitted let National know to not allow a renewal. Now I believe a letter, through Wing, would accomplish the same results. Benefit is that unlike a 2b, which involves lawyers and reviews at all levels, the non-renewal enforces the fact that membership is a "privilege" and not a right.

[lordmonar]

There used to be a Form 2C, which when submitted let National know to not allow a renewal. Now I believe a letter, through Wing, would accomplish the same results. Benefit is that unlike a 2b, which involves lawyers and reviews at all levels, the non-renewal enforces the fact that membership is a "privilege" and not a right.

It's a good thing that went away.

If the member is too bad to let renew.......he/she is too bad to keep now.

Now I understand the allure of just letting the problem go away.....but we really should do our jobs as leaders and do the right thing and take appropriate administrative action with our problem children.

YMMV.

[ALORD]

I would have to go back and check, but isn't the Squadron ( Or echelon commander of the Member in question) the only party, or at least, the lowest party,  that actually has the authority to file a 2B? a Deputy Commander only acts with the "lent" authority of the Unit Commander, and the actual 2B filing could not be filed by a Deputy ( I suppose if your commander was in a coma or something, a Deputy might be considered de facto, and de Jure, the acting Commander, but that would be exceptional. A Deputy could certainly recommend a 2B, but I don't think he has the actual authority to submit it.

[lordmonar]

Any commander at any level can initiate a 2b.
It is recommended to keep that at the lowest level as possible...it makes the appeal process easier.

And no a deputy command does not normally have the authority to initiate a 2b action on his own. 
Of course in special circumstances he/she could do it.....as in the prolonged absence of the actual commander.  Or the deputy can always forward it up to the next echelon.  An out of pocket commander would be justification to up channel it.

[ALORD]

Any commander at any level can initiate a 2b.
It is recommended to keep that at the lowest level as possible...it makes the appeal process easier.

And no a deputy command does not normally have the authority to initiate a 2b action on his own. 
Of course in special circumstances he/she could do it.....as in the prolonged absence of the actual commander.  Or the deputy can always forward it up to the next echelon.  An out of pocket commander would be justification to up channel it.

I would agree with you for the most part, although I would not consider a Deputy Commander (Again, whose authority devolves from his Commander)  to be a valid initiating authority, nor would I expect that a 2B would be initiated by a Commander outside the Chain of the miscreant's command. In other words, I would not expect the Commander of Bugtustle Alabama to attempt to initiate a 2B against a Senior Member in CAWG: The Alabama commander would logically have to recommend a 2B personnel action against the S/M or Cadet if he found the member's conduct so egregious that he had no other recourse, but that would be ridiculous. If a Commander outside the chain of direct command of the evil-doer his duty is to report it to the appropriate command echelon, not to attempt to attempt to directly remove the member from CAP. In the case under discussion here, it sounds as if the CD-C has decided on his authority that a member has to go, and no other option should be considered. I submit that except in the most exceptional circumstances, the facts should be presented to the Command Authority over the complainant and "defendant" ( For lack of a better word) and furthermore, putting the question out in a public forum ( Anyone with the Internet, so maybe a few New Guinea tribesman have access) shows a bias and a lack of understanding of the process. Unload the guns, and put away the pitchforks, and write it up!

[lordmonar]

I don't think I ever suggest someone outside of the direct chain of command could initiate a 2b....if I did...I apologies.

As for a deputy commander initiating one......I was thinking more along the lines that the actual commander was out of town or taking a long leave of absence....not that the deputy could do it as an end around the commander.   Of course in those situations the deputy can always just take it up the chain and let group or wing start it.     

If I (if I were a commander) wanted to do a 2b against someone outside of my chain of command (another squadron/group/wing/region)....then I would notify that member's squadron commander and provide them with the appropriate information and then let them do it.....if they thought it was appropriate.

If I were the commander of some wing/region/national event and a member crossed the line....I may go VFR direct to the appropriate commander above the member's squadron commander.  Say I saw a member at a NCSA screw up royally and I were the NCSA director...I would go directly to the National Commander with my concerns. 

And yes...as to the OP.....not nearly enough info to give any real advice except: to take it up the chain of command and let them handle it.