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Seniors Who Make Lt Col

Started by JAFO78, January 30, 2016, 02:55:05 AM

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kwe1009

Quote from: lordmonar on February 17, 2016, 05:05:44 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 04:37:17 AM
How, exactly, do military promotions work?
If one is an Air Force or Reserve Captain and, concurrently, a CAP member of the same grade ...
When they get promoted to MAJ, does CAP extend the same promotion to MAJ?
Anyone know?
Yes they do.

35-5
Quote3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces.
Regular, Reserve and National Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.  Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5.  Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

So....CAP/USAF Capt gets promoted to Major in the USAF....he just brings a copy of his promotion orders, or his new ID card and fills out a CAPF 2 and send it off to NHQ and it is done.

Not quite.  The member still goes through the promotion board process.  Like it says in the reg that you quoted, the promotion is not automatic or mandatory.

Chappie

Quote from: SarDragon on February 17, 2016, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 17, 2016, 09:32:31 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 02, 2016, 05:04:13 PM
In my former squadron we had a retired Navy Commander (helicopter flight instructor, had flown most of the Navy's rotary-wing aircraft).

A nice fellow, I got on with him quite well.

He got Lt Col straight out of the box.  I don't think I have ever seen that before in all my prior years in CAP.

A real go-getter, wanted to do a lot for the unit.

He came to a few meetings after that...never saw him again; I asked the CC once what happened to him, answer was "I don't know.  Maybe I should call him."

Really?  I could name probably 10 people I know who got CAP Lt Col upon joining based on military rank.

I have three in my own squadron, and have seen several others in other units.

Just saw it occur in the Chaplain Corps.  Retired USAF Lt Col joins as a Chaplain....initial rank in May of 2014 at appointment was Capt.    Mid-January became Lt Col.  Know of two other retired officers in the Chaplain Corps that this has happened with in the last 5-6 years.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

BuckeyeDEJ

Under what circumstances would the temporary period be extended for more than a year?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Eclipse

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 18, 2016, 01:10:15 AM
Under what circumstances would the temporary period be extended for more than a year?

Failure to perform at the level of a Lt Col in the eyes of the approver.

Deciding to resign from a wing or other staff job, return to a squadron and never show up again,
major mishaps or disciplinary infractions, poor inspection in a section he's responsible for, inappropriate
military intensity with cadets, negligently bend an aircraft, lose or damage property, to name a few as possibilities.

"That Others May Zoom"

BuckeyeDEJ

#44
Interesting.

Regulation shows no criteria by which a temporary promotion must be left temporary. Is it possible we have people walking around as light colonels with 10 years on temporary status? And if so, why?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

PHall

Regulation says the first year is temporary and then the Wing Commander decides to make it permanent or not.
There is no provision to extend the temporary period. It's just an up or down decision by the Wing Commander.
And I can not recall ever seeing anybody not getting permanent award of Lieutenant Colonel.
Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. And I've been in CAP for 39 years...

Eclipse

Region CC approves of Lt Colonel for Regions and subordinate units, and must approve permanency.

The regulation regarding action for permanency is only in effect for those promoted since Oct 2009, so at most you could have
temporary Lt Cols being held up for the last 7 years. As PHall says, I've never seen it either other then a few months
due more to in attention then overtly being held back.  I can't imagine anyone sitting temporary for more the a second year without
some sort of complaint, either official or unofficial, not to mention that would cross CC's after 3-4 years by design, so likely to get
punched then.

CAPR 35-5 Page 5:
"d. Lieutenant Colonel. The region commander is the promoting authority for
promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters
and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. All lieutenant
colonel promotions are temporary for 1 year. Individuals promoted to the grade of lieutenant
colonel after 1 October 2009 will require specific action by the approving authority to authorize
the permanent grade of lieutenant colonel. One year after the initial promotion to lieutenant
colonel, the individual member's name will appear in the approving authority's Commander's
Corner application. Commanders may confirm the individual's permanent promotion to the
grade of lieutenant colonel, extend the temporary grade of lieutenant colonel for an additional
year or have the individual revert to the previous grade held prior to promotion to lieutenant
colonel."

"That Others May Zoom"

MSG Mac

The  temporary year as Lt Col was in the regs well prior to 2009, but CAP didn't have a formal process for identifying or tracking LT Cols in that status prior to 2009.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

BuckeyeDEJ

I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

PHall

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: PHall on August 19, 2016, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

If a commander can make a decision without the guidance of regulation (and there is no prescribed rationale in CAPR 35-5), does there need to be documentation?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

PHall

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 24, 2016, 01:03:33 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 19, 2016, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 19, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
I know of one who's gone more than four years as temporary, without any justification. It's baffling.

That's just begging for for an IG Complaint. Hope all of the Wing Commanders involved documented everything.

If a commander can make a decision without the guidance of regulation (and there is no prescribed rationale in CAPR 35-5), does there need to be documentation?
It helps when they get interviewed in the course of resolving the IG Complaint.

Hoodsie

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2016, 03:54:42 AM
Region CC approves of Lt Colonel for Regions and subordinate units, and must approve permanency.

The regulation regarding action for permanency is only in effect for those promoted since Oct 2009, so at most you could have
temporary Lt Cols being held up for the last 7 years. As PHall says, I've never seen it either other then a few months
due more to in attention then overtly being held back.  I can't imagine anyone sitting temporary for more the a second year without
some sort of complaint, either official or unofficial, not to mention that would cross CC's after 3-4 years by design, so likely to get
punched then.

CAPR 35-5 Page 5:
"d. Lieutenant Colonel. The region commander is the promoting authority for
promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters
and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. All lieutenant
colonel promotions are temporary for 1 year. Individuals promoted to the grade of lieutenant
colonel after 1 October 2009 will require specific action by the approving authority to authorize
the permanent grade of lieutenant colonel. One year after the initial promotion to lieutenant
colonel, the individual member's name will appear in the approving authority's Commander's
Corner application. Commanders may confirm the individual's permanent promotion to the
grade of lieutenant colonel, extend the temporary grade of lieutenant colonel for an additional
year or have the individual revert to the previous grade held prior to promotion to lieutenant
colonel."


So I have mainly been a lurker on this site for years with very few posts but this caught my attention and I would open to any advice you can provide on this topic.  Here's the summary.
I have a member in my unit who is currently a CAP Major and a retired 06 in the Air Force.  He has been a CAP member (both as a cadet and senior for 40+ years) although He has not been active in CAP all these 40 years due to his military commitment. Since coming into my squadron, he's been somewhat active but his commercial flying has kept him busy. He had a long distinguished military career in the AF and even served directly under our previous Chief of Staff, Gen. Welsh! He's flown multiple combat aircraft and is working on getting his CAP pilot rating back.  He is extremely personable and a huge asset to the squadron and the wing in terms of his leadership and mentoring skills.  When he is able to come to meetings or exercises, he is very involved.  He received his CAP promotion to Major back when he was a Major in the Air Force.  This was a long time ago and he was not part of my squadron when this occurred. 

Shortly after transferring to my squadron, I submitted his promotion paperwork to Wing.  I felt that his longevity in CAP and his distinguished career in the AF warranted his promotion to Lt. Col. in the CAP and I cited the above regulation.  It was denied on the basis that the this form of promotion could only be used once and he already received a promotion to Major this way.

I fought it because I could not find anything in the regulations stating this could only be done once!  It was denied again by the Wing Commander.  This time he stated that this member was not doing enough in the Squadron or the Wing to warrant that promotion. 

My argument to this is that the language for promotions to Lt. Col. specifically states "The region commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated."  I interpret this as while the Wing Commander may not approve of the Promotion to Lt. Col., doesn't he at least have to forward along the request (with any comments he might have) to the Region Commander.  The Wing Commander stopped it at his level and I'm of the impression that he does not have the authority to do that.

Thoughts or advice? 

RogueLeader

Yes, you are correct that the Region Commander is the Promoting Authority for Lt Col, and that there is no limits as to how many times a member may be promoted under military grade equivalency. 

However, it further states that it is neither automatic or mandatory.  It is further required that a member pass through each echelon's promotion review board.  Thus, it can stop at Group or Wing, and never see the Region Commander's desk.  The Wing Commander is well within his/her purview to say that the participation level is not up to the level that warrants Lt Col.  You and I may well disagree with that determination, and I would agree with your assessment, but the Wing Commander has the Birds and the responsibilities that go along with them, to include getting a hand slapped if the Region CC finds out about it, and disagrees.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Eclipse

#54
Quote from: Hoodsie on August 24, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
My argument to this is that the language for promotions to Lt. Col. specifically states "The region commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel for all members assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated."  I interpret this as while the Wing Commander may not approve of the Promotion to Lt. Col., doesn't he at least have to forward along the request (with any comments he might have) to the Region Commander. 

You interpret it incorrectly.  The Region CC is the final authority, however under normal circumstances the entire chain
must approve the promotion. 

Quote from: Hoodsie on August 24, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
The Wing Commander stopped it at his level and I'm of the impression that he does not have the authority to do that.

He not only has the authority, he has the duty.

Hopping the chain for a promotion circumvents the authority and responsibility of every commander whose opinion is
ignored.  The Region CC could certainly initiate his own promotion action if he felt it warranted, but there is really no
justification for that in the case you cited.

Your situation is no different then a unit member who isn't being promoted to Captain hopping up until he gets
an answer he likes.  How would that effect good order and discipline? When a promotion is denied, regardless of
level, that's where it ends, and the next higher HQ is never even aware of it.

To address the specifics of this case...

He's assigned to a unit, has sporadic participation, and was already granted one promotion for military equivalence.
Unless he's assigned as a liaison to the USAF, the fact that he worked with Gen Walsh, or flew exciting airplanes,
is really irrelevant to CAP service, especially for a pilot who isn't currently flying for CAP.

"Longevity" in and of itself is not justification for a promotion to that level.


"That Others May Zoom"

Hoodsie

Okay.  Thanks for setting me straight.  As in most cases, it's how you interpret the regulations.  I appreciate the quick feedback.

Robert Hartigan

The temporary or probationary period for promotion to Lt. Col. is 100%, USDA grade A choice, bovine excrement, in my opinion.  It was ill conceived in 2009 and is poorly administered today. It is all subjective. It does more harm than good and conflates several issues into one. First and frankly, I believe any region commander who doesn't make the promotion permanent is weak of character unless they provide the member a road map to success. Second, there is no other promotion that is second guessed a year later! What do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job. What if he was in a motorcycle accident and took 6 months to recover? "Congratulations on the new job, welcome to town and by the way you're not a LtCol anymore Major, I'm pretty sure this setback won't impact what your new squadron mates think of you. Thank you for volunteering. Keep up the good work."

If promotion to LtCol was so magical and special then there would be provisions for Wing Commanders that never achieved the rank to serve as LtCols for at least a year much like if the National Commander gets the job as a Colonel and has to serve a year as a one star.

As for it being poorly administers there are several problems with it. If there is an extension there is no way of knowing you have been given more probation time. There is no way for a squadron commander to know this information either. It is a built in adverse membership action that has no recourse. If one region commander promotes the guy to LtCol and there are no adverse reports because he is doing his job and a new region commander comes along, the new region commander gets to second guess the original promoting authority. Seems like an corporate integrity issue when one region commander second guesses another?

Shoot take case of the National Commander who was convicted of domestic violence; that happened back when he was a Major being promoted to LtCol. He kept his silver oak leafs. Using that example, you would have to do something very heinous to revert back to Major, like posting and reading opinions and conjecture on CAPTalk.
<><><>#996
GRW   #2717

dwb

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but...

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 24, 2016, 10:16:07 PMWhat do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job.

That is exactly what happened to me, actually. Promoted to Lt Col in 2011, relocated by my employer to a different Region in 2012, and Lt Col wasn't made permanent until 2013. It was done by my new Region Commander.

I didn't actually know the probation had been extended. I assumed it was permanent. I only knew in 2013 because I got an auto-generated email from eServices telling me I was permanent.

------

The language about Lt Col being probationary for a year has been in the regulations longer than 2009. What happened in 2009 is that they made an eServices module for it.

And oh BTW, Colonel is also probationary for a year. If you are relieved as Wing CC before one year, you're gonna be a Lt Col again (or whatever you were before).

Eclipse

#58
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 24, 2016, 10:16:07 PMWhat do you do about a Lt.Col.(Brevet) that transfers because of work and it takes him or her awhile to get settled in? Extend the probation because he neglected his volunteer job.

Brevet really isn't an appropriate term, as those promotions, while temporary, were generally based on meritorious service.

A member assigned to a squadron isn't serving at the level of Lt Col to start with, so whether he qualifies at all
is questionable, the fact that CAP unevenly applies this expectation not withstanding.  As is repeated often,
promotions aren't supposed to be rewards for work done, they are supposed to be expectations of increased responsibility.

It's rough because CAP doesn't stress this enough, if at all, at the unit level, but by the time you're looking at FGO
grade you should know and understand that, if you don't, frankly, it's questionable >if< you are ready for it. If no one has
been training you properly and holding the expectations properly, then it feels like the rules changed, when in fact they
weren't being applied right early on.

Also, by the time you get to that level, if you don't understand that personality conflicts and "making the boss happy" are part of the package, then again, you probably don't understand enough about the system to be an effective officer
(whether or not this is an effective and proper way to deal with volunteers is a separate and different conversation, irrelevant to the reality of the way things are today).

Promotions are different then PD levels, specialty tracks, and even ES quals, where those have objective expectations
with no subjective variable at the end.  If you did it, you get it, but even then the "did it" has to be to someone's satisfaction who has the pen or the click.


Quote from: dwb on August 24, 2016, 11:39:47 PM
...Colonel is also probationary for a year. If you are relieved as Wing CC before one year, you're gonna be a Lt Col again (or whatever you were before).

It is no longer a defined "year", as there is no longer a probationary year for Wing Commanders.
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R020_001_73F1BA70FD9EB.pdf

CAPR 35-5 Page 12:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf
"b. Wing Commander. Promotion to the temporary grade of colonel is concurrent with
appointment as wing commander. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the
satisfactory completion of assignment, recommendation of the region commander and approval
of the National Commander."

"That Others May Zoom"

Robert Hartigan

All Wing Commanders serving a probationary period were all released according to an ICL dated 15 Nov 2015. If the guy is a screw up and fails to complete the assignment he loses his birds. It is funny that a Colonel only needs to satisfactorily complete his assignment to keep his promotion, but the rest of us have to perform in an exemplary manner to get or keep a promotion. If a wing commander doesn't complete 4 years or fails to meet the level of satisfactory performance then I think he should be terminated because it is too critical of a job. If he can't do the job as a wing commander what makes you think he is going to be a stellar LtCol afterwards?
<><><>#996
GRW   #2717