Col Mary Feik Scholarship only for females?

[THRAWN]

Seems as though we had this conversation not too long ago...had to do with a survey, if my formerly nicotine stained brain recalls correctly...

And this is now a valid question. How to we as an organization fairly slot, and award scholarships like this in cases like this? Just how is the CAP CP prepared to deal with it?

[Garibaldi]

I'm not sure we can discuss that rationally without having the ban hammer dropped.

[CAPDCCMOM]

We are not prepared to deal with this.  And that is going to be a real problem.

I am more conservative than Atilla the Hun, and even I can see that things are changing quickly. We no longer live in a time where people stay in the shadows. People are "out" as it were. We have to be ready. We have a Core Value at stake here, Respect for the Individual.

[THRAWN]

I'm not sure we can discuss that rationally without having the ban hammer dropped.

Why? How many leaders and commanders are on this board? How many decision makers read and comment? It's an important enough issue that it's on the news just about every day. If it can't be discussed in an open forum, where will it be discussed? Leaving politics and religion out of it, CAP needs to have a clear policy on this. All kidding aside, MOM brings up a great point that really needs some attention.

[Spam]

I just want to point out that my position has been consistent on this from day one:

CAP should be neutral on, and should stay out of the business of promoting, encouraging, favoring or discriminating between sexes and sexual preferences, period, and should base all selections for duty assignments, awards, memberships, and scholarships, among other benefits - on performance.

Its my belief that that is consistent with the official policy as referenced.

Still waiting on an argument better than jeders' Main Chance. (from Oxford, "Look or be looking for an opportunity to take advantage of a situation for personal gain, typically a financial one:  'a developer with an eye on the main chance').

V/R
Spam

Updated/corrected:
to add "performance".
to add "Main Chance" definition.

[THRAWN]

I just want to point out that my position has been consistent on this from day one:

CAP should be neutral on, and should stay out of the business of promoting, encouraging, favoring or discriminating between sexes and sexual preferences, period, and should base all selections for duty assignments, awards, memberships, and scholarships, among other benefits.

Its my belief that that is consistent with the official policy as referenced.

Still waiting on an argument better than jeders' Main Chance.

V/R
Spam

I agree and there needs to be a way to do that. Is there no way that applications can be designed to eliminate the PII? No names, no gender, just the record of the applicant?

[THRAWN]

We are not prepared to deal with this.  And that is going to be a real problem.

I am more conservative than Atilla the Hun, and even I can see that things are changing quickly. We no longer live in a time where people stay in the shadows. People are "out" as it were. We have to be ready. We have a Core Value at stake here, Respect for the Individual.

You're right. CAP is in no way prepared for this. We've collectively buried our heads about social issues like this until it smacks us in the face. There needs to be a proactive approach on how to deal with these issues before somebody gets into a situation that they will have a hard time getting out of.

[Ned]

Leaving politics and religion out of it, CAP needs to have a clear policy on this.

C'mon guys, give us a little credit here.

It should be no surprise to anyone that no shortage of CAP committees and senior leadership have already met, discussed it, and produced reports and recommendations.  The national commander appointed a high level committee (I can't remember the exact title) composed of senior CAP leaders, cadets, parents, chaplains, and others to help us arrive at a fair and reasonable policy.  And we continue to study the issue.  We are sending senior corporate staff and volunteer leaders to a conference next month to see how we can continue to make our terrific CP as inclusive as possible while preserving the essential military nature, and in a way that is respectful of parents and stakeholders.

But as I've said each time this comes up, it really deserves its own thread and discussion rather than coming up tangentially in a scholarship thread.

[Garibaldi]

I'm not sure we can discuss that rationally without having the ban hammer dropped.

Why? It's an important enough issue that it's on the news just about every day. If it can't be discussed in an open forum, where will it be discussed? Leaving politics and religion out of it, CAP needs to have a clear policy on this. All kidding aside, MOM brings up a great point that really needs some attention.

Who at NHQ is going to be the arbiter of what constitutes a male or female member? What criteria do we use? Can they use the bathroom of the gender they "identify" with, regardless of their plumbing? How do we react when Cadet Bubba and Cadet Red Neckerson take the cadet in question out back for some "frontier justice" because they are morally offended? What will stop some genius male cadet from identifying as a female so s/he can shower with, dress around, and be around female cadets?

It's not our fight. It's going to go much higher than CAP-USAF. I believe DoD has policies in place, or will soon, regarding the treatment of transgendered service members, but as we are not beholden to DoD for the most part as civilian members of a voluntary organization, it's going to take a lot of red tape and civil suits that CAP won't want to deal with.

Personally, I hope CAP finds a way to work around it, but I don't think it'll happen. Obviously, we cannot discriminate (that word again!) against people due to gender, sexual orientation, religion, color, creed, or whatever, but this issue really isn't CAP's domain.

You're right, though, we eventually have to face it, because unlike even 10 years ago, this is a thing. Like it or not, it's going to be an issue.

[FW]

"Due To the generosity of our CAP membership, CAP is able to offer flight scholarships to help cadets attain a private pilot's license." (emphasis mine)

More than one donor... More than one scholarship?  CAP member donors giving CAP money to fund a CAP Scholarship (vetted and administered) for young women?  OK, I get it, or is the media blurb incorrect? 

If correct, how many other CAP "owned" scholarships are restricted? 

I am glad CAP is trying to recruit more women to become pilots.  I'm just wondering why CAP thinks this is the best way vs. going thru another outlet (like the Foundation)?

[Garibaldi]

"Due To the generosity of our CAP membership, CAP is able to offer flight scholarships to help cadets attain a private pilot's license." (emphasis mine)

More than one donor... More than one scholarship?  CAP member donors giving CAP money to fund a CAP Scholarship (vetted and administered) for young women?  OK, I get it, or is the media blurb incorrect? 

If correct, how many other CAP "owned" scholarships are restricted? 

I am glad CAP is trying to recruit more women to become pilots.  I'm just wondering why CAP thinks this is the best way vs. going thru another outlet (like the Foundation)?

Thanks for bringing this back on topic.  :clap:

[Ned]

More than one donor... More than one scholarship?

Yes (technically), Yes.

CAP member donors giving CAP money to fund a CAP Scholarship (vetted and administered) for young women?

Exactly.

As a matter of policy, since the Foundation is a separate corporation, we can't run anything "through them."  The Foundation raises money for CAP and donates it to us.  CAP distributes the Foundation's donations as academic and flight scholarships.  Similarly, the generous donors for the Feik Scholarships donated the money to CAP for us to distribute as flight scholarships with the restrictions we have discussed.  The Feik Scholarship donor(s) happen to be members, but the procedure is the same either way.

It's been a while since I have seen the briefing, but there are several wings and regions that distribute fairly substantial grants / scholarships that are restricted by gender, residency, etc.  But AFAIK, the Feik Scholarships are the only NHQ-administered grants / scholarships that are not gender-neutral.  (Many are limited by age, and achievement level in the program, academic level, etc.)

Perhaps a recipient or two will respond and tell us about them.

[lordmonar]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

if he/she has government ID that says female......then yes for CAP's purposes she is female.   

[Nuke52]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

Unicorns don't exist, ergo your attempt at using that simile are fallacious and seditious. 

Her use of non-existent unicorns is clearly a metaphor because she does not use "like" or "as," ergo your attempt at using "simile" is fallaciouser and seditiouser.   

[Nuke52]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

if he/she has government ID that says female......then yes for CAP's purposes she is female.

And what if -he- also had a government ID that says male??

[Nuke52]

I'm not sure we can discuss that rationally without having the ban hammer dropped.

Why? It's an important enough issue that it's on the news just about every day. If it can't be discussed in an open forum, where will it be discussed? Leaving politics and religion out of it, CAP needs to have a clear policy on this. All kidding aside, MOM brings up a great point that really needs some attention.

Who at NHQ is going to be the arbiter of what constitutes a male or female member? What criteria do we use? Can they use the bathroom of the gender they "identify" with, regardless of their plumbing? How do we react when Cadet Bubba and Cadet Red Neckerson take the cadet in question out back for some "frontier justice" because they are morally offended? What will stop some genius male cadet from identifying as a female so s/he can shower with, dress around, and be around female cadets?

[Mods, if you think CAPTALK is better served with this tangential topic split off into its own thread, please do so...]

Clearly the "justice" you mention--violently placing one's hand on another--is absolutely unacceptable under any circumstance in CAP, and our reaction is just as clear:  membership termination and fully cooperating with the police to attain the attacker's prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.  But going back to a more reasonable scenario...

What do we do when some clever, "formerly" male cadet takes the necessary, legal steps to gain CAP's official sanction to shower with the ladies?  "What right do you have to decide whether I really identify as female or am just doing it for the, erm, 'perks'?" is, of course, a smart and legally represented cadet's answer.

Yes, how to deal with transgender cadets is a serious issue, but it's also an issue that will eventually penetrate the senior realm if it hasn't already.  What do you do with that new senior guy/self-identifying gal who just gives you a vibe that she might not really be all the woman she claims to be?  Do you bed her down with the female seniors at encampment?  How about when we switch positions on the topic and have a lady who identifies as a man?  At the last encampment I attended, the male showers were communal/open bay.  How many men really want the "self-identifying" woman in there showering with them?  I guess that really depends...

You're right, though, we eventually have to face it, because unlike even 10 years ago, this is a thing. Like it or not, it's going to be an issue.

I agree, it's certainly something we need to wrap our arms around before the organization takes it right in the face.

[Holding Pattern]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

if he/she has government ID that says female......then yes for CAP's purposes she is female.

And what if -he- also had a government ID that says male??

Use a primary ID with the latest issue date. If someone tries to "game" this with multiple IDs, notify the appropriate authorities. This isn't difficult.

[lordmonar]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

if he/she has government ID that says female......then yes for CAP's purposes she is female.

And what if -he- also had a government ID that says male??

Then (If I were his commander) tell him to pick one and enter that gender into E-Services and go from there.

My point was.......last year when I had to deal with this issue at my squadron.......CAP's policy then was if they had a government issued ID that said XXXXX then that person could declare themselves in E-Services as XXXXXX.   But then that was their gender and all rules (uniform, lodging, and I guess scholorship eligibility) would apply.   

So....no switching back and forth to game the system.

[Nuke52]

So, in the interest of Unicorns and PC compliance. We would never want to have anyone left out. (Please note hint of sarcasm). If I hvae a male Cadet that identifies as a female, then he is allowed to apply for the Feik Scholarship and the "male" scholarships. 

if he/she has government ID that says female......then yes for CAP's purposes she is female.

And what if -he- also had a government ID that says male??

Then (If I were his commander) tell him to pick one and enter that gender into E-Services and go from there.

My point was.......last year when I had to deal with this issue at my squadron.......CAP's policy then was if they had a government issued ID that said XXXXX then that person could declare themselves in E-Services as XXXXXX.   But then that was their gender and all rules (uniform, lodging, and I guess scholorship eligibility) would apply.   

So....no switching back and forth to game the system.

I have to agree that that is a very reasonable policy, but who are you (were you his commander) to tell him to pick one?  If the State of Nevada sees fit to issue him/her two legally valid IDs (in IL you could possess both a DL and a state ID) or if NV says he's male and CA says he's female, it's none of your consarn business telling someone who isn't your child/ward they can only have one legal identity...

Let's extrapolate a bit.  A very possible outcome of this whole thing is as follows... 

Our cadet was born as and identified as male when he joined at 12, but later identified as female at 14.  Turns out, 14 is a very confusing age for a youth (especially with today's moral landscape), and she thought maybe she'd like to play football on the HS team.  Unfortunately, her school district is in a horrible (i.e., conservative) town and only allows males on the boys' team, so she decided that because she liked football so much, she was probably really a he afterall and subsequently identified as male.  After a season or two it becomes obvious that a football scholarship is not in her--I mean, his--future, but he can really crush it in baseball (especially against a bunch of girls playing softball).  So, our cadet re-re-identifies as a female (and the star of the softball team) and scores a full-ride--bonus!--to a nice liberal arts college out Left West.  (The after-practice showers with his--darn it, I did it again--HER team mates is a pretty nice fringe benefit, too.)  Finally, as those topsy-turvy college years come to an end, she realizes once "and for all" that she's grown into a fine, educated young man.

A bit of a fanciful scenario, sure, but you cannot deny that this whole gender bending thing is a slippery slope, with possibilities (perhaps less stark than this one) up and down that spectrum.  And, as any good trans apologist will tell you (scream at you?), "Who are you to judge how someone else gender-identifies today?!?" (or any other day, or if they identify back and forth, or, or, or...).

While you and I might "know" someone is gaming the system, are you willing to stand your ground in a lawsuit alleging YOUR anti-trans intolerance and discrimination?

[lordmonar]

I have to agree that that is a very reasonable policy, but who are you (were you his commander) to tell him to pick one?  If the State of Nevada sees fit to issue him/her two legally valid IDs (in IL you could possess both a DL and a state ID) or if NV says he's male and CA says he's female, it's none of your consarn business telling someone who isn't your child/ward they can only have one legal identity...

Well....actually Nevada would not do something like that.  Once they issue a new one (with a new gender) then the old one is supposed to be destroyed.   Ergo using two ID cards to game the system is a violation of CAP core values if not state law.

Again...I'm all for gender identity and equality.  But I'm not for abusing the system.

And for "who are you to tell him to pick one"....if I'm his commander in CAP I am the first line of official representative of the organization.
I'm the one who is supposed to interpret and enforce the regulations.  And it the case of a transgender individual.....it does not help me get my job done of running the programs entrusted to me.....and to make sure that we are being as inclusive and open to all individuals...if they are gaming the system.  It does not help CAP, it does not help me.....and IMHO it hurts their cause of trying to get LGBT accepted by the mainstream.

Let's extrapolate a bit.  A very possible outcome of this whole thing is as follows... 

Our cadet was born as and identified as male when he joined at 12, but later identified as female at 14.  Turns out, 14 is a very confusing age for a youth (especially with today's moral landscape), and she thought maybe she'd like to play football on the HS team.  Unfortunately, her school district is in a horrible (i.e., conservative) town and only allows males on the boys' team, so she decided that because she liked football so much, she was probably really a he afterall and subsequently identified as male.  After a season or two it becomes obvious that a football scholarship is not in her--I mean, his--future, but he can really crush it in baseball (especially against a bunch of girls playing softball).  So, our cadet re-re-identifies as a female (and the star of the softball team) and scores a full-ride--bonus!--to a nice liberal arts college out Left West.  (The after-practice showers with his--darn it, I did it again--HER team mates is a pretty nice fringe benefit, too.)  Finally, as those topsy-turvy college years come to an end, she realizes once "and for all" that she's grown into a fine, educated young man.

A bit of a fanciful scenario, sure, but you cannot deny that this whole gender bending thing is a slippery slope, with possibilities (perhaps less stark than this one) up and down that spectrum.  And, as any good trans apologist will tell you (scream at you?), "Who are you to judge how someone else gender-identifies today?!?" (or any other day, or if they identify back and forth, or, or, or...).

While you and I might "know" someone is gaming the system, are you willing to stand your ground in a lawsuit alleging YOUR anti-trans intolerance and discrimination?

Well...I can't help that.  But if 12 year cadet "Jean" decides at 14 she wants to "john" and provides state ID with "John" on it.....he is now john.  If John wants to apply for the Feik Scholarship and tries to be Jean again for the purpose of gaming the system.....I won't let him do it.   I will make him go through the whole process again and legally change back to Jean.

I won't stop him from doing it....I'm just not gonna let him game the system.  It violate the core value of integrity.