Should CAP Solo Wings be Only for Cadets?

[DNall]

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, sir.

I mean there's no badge, or need of one, cause it's merely a stepping stone. If an adult solos as a stepping stone to MP, then it equally doesn't need recognition (badge). If a cadet does so as part of our mission to educate youth toward aerospace-mindedness & aviation careers possibly including military aviation... then it's more worthy. That & the bar for a cadet award is lower. We give them regular promotions, badges, ribbons fortiny accomplishments cause their young minds are motivated by such things. Adults are more mature then that. They may want a badge to hold over the heads of others & prove how much better they are than you, but they aren't easily motivated by the badge itself or the act of recognition. That's why the rules should be different, cause the mission & objectives are different.

[RiverAux]

3-2. b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft

To me that does not say that the solo had to have been done in a CAP aircraft especially since you see the same wording for the CAP Pilot rating:

CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft

Now, does that mean that to be a CAP pilot you had to have gotten your private pilot certificate in a CAP aircraft?  I think not.

[DNall]

good catch... the reg section seems to be giving standards by which an individual would be able to operate a CAP aircraft to solo, not for award of a badge.

[Major Lord]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

The reg states "in CAP aircraft", but I don't understand why it should matter what aircraft is utilized (CAP flight activity or otherwise).  CAP isn't going to allow a 16 year old with solo wings to take up, on his or her own, a CAP airplane afterwards to build hours, so why should what aircraft or what CFI the student utilizes?

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, sir.   If someone wears wings (or rank or badges) not signed off on by CAP, then yes, they aren't legit.   

I can tell I'm getting older by my continual use of the phrase, "did you document that?"

My last sentence about a pledge pin on your uniform? Or that there is no controlling legal authority? My point is that it is not licit for a cadet to wear wings he did not earn under the control of CAP, but that  you seem to be happy to just ignore the regs and put on the wings, substituting your judgement of what is fair and equitable, for what is "legal". That can lead to all sorts of bad things (you know, having people take your AFI tests for you and such)

Let me say it clearly: If you did not get the wings under CAP control, they are not legitimate.  Any more than my NRA Distinguished Expert medal qualifies me to wear a military marksmanship badge. It may not be fair, it may make Jr cry, but thats the way it is.

Of course, the 60-1 could be changed, and it could be made permissable to earn yor wings ( if solo wings really count as wings) by other means. Perhaps we could have a microsoft flight sim version for those kids who can't pass an FAA physical? Its just so unfair that a kid who is visually challenged and quadraplegeic can't get wings too!

Capt. Lord

[lordmonar]

Let me say it clearly: If you did not get the wings under CAP control, they are not legitimate.  Any more than my NRA Distinguished Expert medal qualifies me to wear a military marksmanship badge. It may not be fair, it may make Jr cry, but thats the way it is.

b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.

Got to say...that you are 100% wrong Capt Lord.

The only mention of CAP control is specifically for glider students. 

The phase "To be qualified in CAP aircraft" is an after the fact....that is....once they have earned the CAP Solo rating they are now qualified to fly CAP aircraft solo....but it DOES NOT mean you have to DO THE SOLO IN A CAP aircraft.  Just as the requirements for CAP pilot read

c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:

By your read no pilot could get his wings unless he completed his training under CAP control....oh...that's right....CAP is specifically forbidden to give initial pilot training to senior members.

Do you see how you interpretation of the regulations breaks down.  ANYONE who completes their solo in any aircraft is eligible for CAP Solo Wings.

[DNall]

okay so now we've determined it's a badly written reg that needs to be fixed & no one has a fundamentaql problem with cadets getting solo wings for outside flight training, everyone stipulates on that I believe. If you disagree on the interpretation then ask Susie Parker & be done with it.

Now the question goes back to the orgiginal post... should adults be eligible for solo wings as well? If so then what about pre-solo, or model rocketry, or O-flights, or able to choose to fo thru the cadet program rather than adult side despite being 42yo, can they choose to stay a cadet & test for spaatz at 25.... you understand there are dif obkectives for cadets & adults, and that solo is not meaningful in the range of adult objectives. That is why I think it shouldn't be authorized.

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

[lordmonar]

Now the question goes back to the original post... should adults be eligible for solo wings as well?

Yes.

If so then what about pre-solo, or model rocketry, or O-flights, or able to choose to fo thru the cadet program rather than adult side despite being 42yo, can they choose to stay a cadet & test for spaatz at 25.... you understand there are dif obkectives for cadets & adults, and that solo is not meaningful in the range of adult objectives. That is why I think it shouldn't be authorized.

I disagree that Solo is not  meaningful in a range of adult objectives.  I know that I am going to be [darn] proud of when I do my first solo.  Will I go out and buy my solo wings and Leather namepatch....no....but I expect to have my Observer wings by then...but if I were wingless I would.

Also the argument that some things for cadets are not for seniors...ergo all things for cadets should not be for seniors does not wash....or there will be a lot of Comm guys and GT members who need to take off their badges. 

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

I would say that there should be a CAP Training Wings....you get the basic when you finish ground school and pass your written, get the star when you solo and then you get the wreath when you Privet Pilot.  That whole pre-solo stuff just does not sit well with me....but ground school is a marked, objective and clear step on your way to getting your ticket.

[DNall]

I disagree that Solo is not  meaningful in a range of adult objectives.  I know that I am going to be [darn] proud of when I do my first solo.  Will I go out and buy my solo wings and Leather namepatch....no....but I expect to have my Observer wings by then...but if I were wingless I would.

And well YOU should be proud, for dang sure you should. That's you though, it has nothing to do with the objectives of CAP. I've been proud of a lot of things I've done in life, as I'm sure you have too, but very few of those things need or deserve a badge on your uniform.

My personal position is that the AE objectives for kids are very different from those for adults. I think that's been clearly addressed throughout our history & in our programs. With that in mind, I don't believe flight training for adults meets any AE objective, while I do belive it meets goals on the cadet side of AE.

Also the argument that some things for cadets are not for seniors...ergo all things for cadets should not be for seniors does not wash....or there will be a lot of Comm guys and GT members who need to take off their badges. 

Actually that'd be the other way around. ES is not part of the cadet program or for cadets. It is something they are allowed to participate in to a limited degree after they've taken care of their primary duties in the cadet program. So if anything cadets would have to take those off, but that's not the case. They are operationally useful designators. You see though that cadets can't pass into aircrew/GTL till they pass 18, they can't get tech ratings or be assigned to staff postions as primary... there are lots of things that are for aduls and not cadets, and vice versa. There are a few things that are shared when necessary & appropriate. I don't think solo wings comes into that category of necessary.

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system.

I would say that there should be a CAP Training Wings....you get the basic when you finish ground school and pass your written, get the star when you solo and then you get the wreath when you Privet Pilot.  That whole pre-solo stuff just does not sit well with me....but ground school is a marked, objective and clear step on your way to getting your ticket.

I don't feel very strongly on this whole subject ot be honest. I do thing adults w/ solo wings look pretty goofy. I also think this three wing level for ground, solo, & private pilot is a worthy way to do it. I still tend to think those should be cadet focused, but I don't really care that much. I may think you look silly wearing them, but it's probably not that big a deal.

[LTC_Gadget]

OK, it's evidently another instance where the regs have changed over time.  I earned mine back in the mid-70s before there was even a gleam of an idea for a national-level activity.  I'll trust your take, as I haven't read that portion "recently."  And as I said previously, it's an academic discussion for me now, anyway.  I earned mine at a *wing-level* flight encampment, so mine were still earned in "CAP aircraft." But, by your research, it would appear that "that was then, this is now."  It's kinda like the recruiter ribbon.  You can earn it as a cadet with very few recruits, but "now" to retain it as a senior, you (now) have to bring several more.  I love it (not) when they tighten/change the requirements "behind" you..

V/R,

[LTC_Gadget]

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

That conjecture is opinion, of course, and each member here is entitled to politely express his own.  So, I'll insert mine as well. 

Pre-solo is "pre"  the demonstration of any kind of flight skills, so pre-solo wings seem wrong, hopeful, falsely boastful to me.  You haven't actually *done* any independent flying yet. Sort of like you get a piece of paper that says "learner's permit" when you drive, but it doesn't say driver's license.  That reference is an imperfect analogy, of course, and could work to be a red herring, so let's please not digress on that here.  Getting private pilot is post-solo, so you'd be wearing pilot wings, and has nothing to do with the solo accomplishment, i.e, it's past it.

But, as I said, it's just an opinion. And we all know what opinions are like, eh?

One thing that no one else has mentioned up to now, and its somewhat non-sequitur as it's relatively 'ancient' history, is that their used to be a program just for female cadets in the sixties.  It was a stewardess encampment.   Yes, it said stewardess before it was considered non-PC to use that word.  At the conclusion of that program, they got a 'wing.'  It had the center CAP disk and one wing.. But, poking polite fun at Mr. Nall (or who?), does that mean that, looking at her one wing from across the plane, that she could be have been asked to 'help' fly the plane, just not done it herself.. 

V/R,

[BillB]

There were four Stewardess Schools operated by major airlines for CAP female cadets. The largest was in Miami sponsored by Eastern Airlines. The cadets learned the basics of flight safety inside the passenger areas, and even went through a water course on how to exit a ditched aircraft. Cadets that completed the school got the stewardess wings, but could NOT wear them after they turned senior (even though many did)The stewardess wings were the half wing in silver, modled after the enamel half wing for WW II Observers.

[DNall]

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

That conjecture is opinion, of course, and each member here is entitled to politely express his own.  So, I'll insert mine as well. 

Pre-solo is "pre"  the demonstration of any kind of flight skills, so pre-solo wings seem wrong, hopeful, falsely boastful to me.  You haven't actually *done* any independent flying yet. Sort of like you get a piece of paper that says "learner's permit" when you drive, but it doesn't say driver's license.  That reference is an imperfect analogy, of course, and could work to be a red herring, so let's please not digress on that here.  Getting private pilot is post-solo, so you'd be wearing pilot wings, and has nothing to do with the solo accomplishment, i.e, it's past it.

But, as I said, it's just an opinion. And we all know what opinions are like, eh?

One thing that no one else has mentioned up to now, and its somewhat non-sequitur as it's relatively 'ancient' history, is that their used to be a program just for female cadets in the sixties.  It was a stewardess encampment.   Yes, it said stewardess before it was considered non-PC to use that word.  At the conclusion of that program, they got a 'wing.'  It had the center CAP disk and one wing.. But, poking polite fun at Mr. Nall (or who?), does that mean that, looking at her one wing from across the plane, that she could be have been asked to 'help' fly the plane, just not done it herself.. 

Pilot wings are an operational designator that cames at the min150hr mark for TMP & are shared with the MP level.

I don't really like the pre-solo rating at all, but it's here & it looks almost indistinguishable from solo, which degrades that accomplishment. So, my suggestion would be the star at solo, and star/wreath at private pilot... which is still a training level to CAP pilot.

I'm kind of tired of hearing about the old stewardess program. It was shevenistic then & now. There was a time when females couldn't be fighter pilots & astronauts then retire to a cushy airline gig when they got done serving their country, a time when the best they could do in aviation was sling some drinks & shake it a little till a successful busniess man retired them to the kitchen (I'm going to get killed by a flight attendant now), but that hasn't been the case for a long long time. Just like slavery is in the past, can we not talk about one wing badges & stewardess programs, please. [/end overly dramatic moment] 

[FARRIER]

I'm kind of tired of hearing about the old stewardess program. It was shevenistic then & now. There was a time when females couldn't be fighter pilots & astronauts then retire to a cushy airline gig when they got done serving their country, a time when the best they could do in aviation was sling some drinks & shake it a little till a successful busniess man retired them to the kitchen (I'm going to get killed by a flight attendant now), but that hasn't been the case for a long long time. Just like slavery is in the past, can we not talk about one wing badges & stewardess programs, please. [/end overly dramatic moment] 

The Fight Attendant position is a safety position, not a "sling some drinks & shake it a little" position. They are there for the passengers' safety (see FAR 121.417 Crewmember Emergency Training and 121.421 Flight Attendants: Initial and  Transition Ground Training.)

To bring it back, for all cadets, it may not be a bad idea. It would provide some skills that they could build upon for future employment.

Dennis, your post currently degenerates the position. Why, You leave you disclaimer buried.

If anyone on this board gets a chance to view the Crew Resource Management tapes of the United Airlines Flight 232, Sioux City Crash, do so. This would show what Flight Attendants truly do.

[DNall]

Told ya I'd get jumped for that one. I understand what flight attendants do & I know all about their unappreciated skill & training... I think it's a great job, but I don't think it's what you take a kid & put in their head as a dream. You tell kids they can be president someday, that they can be astronauts & fighter pilots, that they can go to the Air Force Academy, and on to the moon. You don't tell them they can settle for a mundane job, important though it may be, you don't tell them they can aspire to be a role player, and you certainly don't incentivise that thinking by giving them a badge for it.

You do on the other hand want to push them toward being a pilot, which leads down the road to academy, fighter pilot, test pilot, astronaut... and probably in reality settles for some less than exciting in or out of aviation but as a lifelong proponent of aviation & airpower. That's what AE is about. It doesn't work the same way with adults that are past the dream of what they'll do when they grow up stage, or should be anyway.

[O-Rex]

Kudos to all the intrepid young men and women in our cadet program who have achieved the milestone of solo flight: they certainly deserve something for it, and may they wear them with pride.

By the time they get to the land of Seniors, they should be thinking about moving on, operationally.

Solo Wings on a Senior (particularly the more "mature" ones) says to me "Haven't been air-operational in a dog's-age, but I was hot-dookey back in the day......  Besides, I don't want my GT badge to get lonely, and all the other Senior Members at the B.S. session Squadron meeting have one."

Get operational, upgrade the bling, and put the solo wings in the scrapbook with all the other cadet momentos.

Next thing, someone will gripe about not being able to wear their model rocketry badge as a Senior ("Hey, I EARNED it!!!!!!!!! )

There's nothing like entitlement issues.

Flight attendants? I'm all for them: it'll break the monotony during ELT missions.......

How about a wing-like badge for those who can recite the lines to TOP GUN by heart?

[FARRIER]

Told ya I'd get jumped for that one. I understand what flight attendants do & I know all about their unappreciated skill & training... I think it's a great job, but I don't think it's what you take a kid & put in their head as a dream. You tell kids they can be president someday, that they can be astronauts & fighter pilots, that they can go to the Air Force Academy, and on to the moon. You don't tell them they can settle for a mundane job, important though it may be, you don't tell them they can aspire to be a role player, and you certainly don't incentivise that thinking by giving them a badge for it.

You do on the other hand want to push them toward being a pilot, which leads down the road to academy, fighter pilot, test pilot, astronaut... and probably in reality settles for some less than exciting in or out of aviation but as a lifelong proponent of aviation & airpower. That's what AE is about. It doesn't work the same way with adults that are past the dream of what they'll do when they grow up stage, or should be anyway.

Your not getting it Dennis. It is providing them with options. Yes, we want to give them an opportunity to become a pilot. But by saying we don't provide the other option because, in your mind, its mundane. How do you know that. Have you spent time time in the airline industry.

We are supposed to be providing options, all options. If by chance, that cadet, when he/she becomes an adult, fails the flight physical, they have another option if they want it.

And, it is not insensitive to provide such a badge, being a flight attendant is a safety position. How can providing a badge for getting even a portion of that training be insensitive?

Here is a perfect scenario. If there is a small fire in the cabin, and it requires manual input, who attends to it? Not the stick driver (pilot).

There are many people who spend 20 plus years in such a career and enjoy it. These days you have to have to have at least two years of college and speak at least another language to even work the job.

[BillB]

Stewardess School was not presented as a career path concept. It was an activity for female cadets that were locked out of most all cadet special activities during the period. The training was intense during a two week session.  And it delt with the airline industry, air safetyFAA flight centers and so on. Stewardess School was nere a coffee, tea or something stronger type activity. It was a CAP activity limited to female cadets, not a recruiting tool for airline stewardess's.

[DNall]

No you don't give them options. you don't put a menu of 350 things in front of them & let them pick. What they'll ultimately do is choose something that sounds a little exciting, but safe; something they aren't scared of failing at.

If you have it ingrained in their head that nothing short of the stars is acceptable then eventually most will settle for less, but that tiny few that can make it will. If you give them safe outs & allow them to take the lazy way without even trying, then the best & the brightest aren't what show up to the big game.

Our cadets tend to be among the best & the brightest & we don't need to give them an opportunity for anything but greatness. If they stumble along the way or make another choice then that's on them, but we need to be driving them hard so that doesn't happen. Just like holding the bike from behind when they're learning to ride & eventually you let go, and then they figure out they can do it w/o you pushing them.

Just to clarify, my dad is retired from Contenintal, flown all over the world a few times, dated a flight attendant for a long time, know tons of people who work in the industry, and most flight attendants I know are EMT-Is as well.

Far as it being a safety position... so is that kid that pulls the lever on the roller coaster & so is the 16yo lifeguard at the city pool, so is flight line on the 101... none of that needs a badge, and none of it is a thing to aspire to or recognize or incentivize. It is not where you push people to go.

[FARRIER]

Far as it being a safety position... so is that kid that pulls the lever on the roller coaster...

Equating a Flight Attendant to a Carny.....I've sat in on some Flight Attendant training, having worked at an Airline Flight Training Center. Very big difference.

[FARRIER]

Stewardess School was not presented as a career path concept. It was an activity for female cadets that were locked out of most all cadet special activities during the period. The training was intense during a two week session.  And it delt with the airline industry, air safetyFAA flight centers and so on. Stewardess School was nere a coffee, tea or something stronger type activity. It was a CAP activity limited to female cadets, not a recruiting tool for airline stewardess's.

:)It would be a great idea to revisit/modernize the idea.