Should CAP Solo Wings be Only for Cadets?

[Major Carrales]

My reading of the regs is that that Cadets earn solo wings by going to an NCSA, to wit, National Flight Academy. You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC. Not many Seniors have soloed in CAP AC, and for darn sure, no Seniors have have soloed at Flight Encampment! I suppose a cadet who transitioned to Senior could keep his solo wings, if it was the highest award he earned....But since we don't send C/A1C's to NCSA's that seems unlikely.

Capt. Lord

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

[DNall]

NCSA patches off adults? Yeah that sounds fine too. And people can't snicker if you don't wear them in public.

Ohhh....don't say that, you may get run down by a bunch of HAWK Rangers. 

I think as soon as CAP lets its Senior Members take flight lessons in CAP planes from CAP Pilots then we can wear our solo wings.  I have no good reasoning for that, except I want to see this happen.  They have no intention to allow it, and they suck for that!

Whatever, I get to go to real ranger school & then display it no where at all on my CAP uniform.

Far as flight training, that's being talked about on the NEC thread, but historically CAP isabout taking outside pre-existing talents & using them to do missions for the AF... NOT about training those skils inside, be that pilot or something like EMT or even adequate officership for that matter. Now SHOULD we be offering some of that stuff or at least assistance to get it elsewhere? Absolutely!

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply.

Well that's not WHY they don't wear them. You can indicate EMT on a uniform, but not your status as a firefighter or police officer. That's cause one has something to do with the mission & the other doesn't.

And, I don't know about the AF, but in the Army you absolutely do get FAA certifications for commercial, and later IP/CFI. The civilian certifications are used as benchmarks & conducted as a benefit to the pilots.

For the umpteenth time, CAP and the USAF are vastly different organizations.   A private pilot's  license may carry little weight in the USAF, but it is the life breath of CAP.

That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

I don't know what anyone EARNS on IACE by the way, it's a diplomatic vacation. I say again trinkets for baby-steps are for cadets, not adults that should be doing things for their own sake & worried about display of only the really meaningful stuff in the most professional way.

Oh, and from what I've heard, CAC is has been working for some time on clarifying these are only for cadets, but I don't know.

[Major Carrales]

[That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

(sarcatic) Yeah...that is exactally why CAP aviators wear them.  And to think they've all been carrying those CAPF 101 cards...WOW...my pilots have been meshuggeners the whole time.  All they needed was to wear their wings.   

Enough joking...Dennis, you well know that the case you mention above is unrealistic.  Going to someone because they are "wearing wings" is not a good sign of "I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here," that comes from knowing the people you fly with or from collected wisdom at briefings.

Plus, would not some one with solo wings also be saying "look, I'm bettering myself as an aviator to assist CAP...please help/support me?"

I'm sorry Dennis, the BOVINEFECALOMETER was going critical on that one paragraph.

[lordmonar]

I know when I become a senior, I won't wear mine.

Why is there such an attitude of....."I don't want to wear them for such and such reason and so no one should be able to wear them"?

You don't want to wear them...fine....but don't mandate the non-wearing of them to those people who want to/like to wear them.

Air Force officers don't have wings which denote a private pilot's license, so why should CAP officers?  The only wings in the Air Force (for officers) are the ones for pilots, navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.

Not to repeat the obvious...but..we are NOT the real USAF.
   

Go troll somewhere else.

Now sir, if Lt Col Horning can post in a topic I've authored without calling me a troll, so can you.  Deal? 

Besides, please show me how this thread is disrupting the operation of this online community, and any posts which are deliberately inflammatory.   

Because you sir are NOT....I SAY AGAIN...NOT a member of CAP....and yet you troll (yes troll) around two different forums offering your opinions on CAP, the operation, uniform and politics there of.

It is kind of one of those put up or shut up things.....scape up the money, find a unit and then join...any you buy yourself a bit of creditability and a "right" to actually have an opinion on any CAP related subject you feel like posting about.  Right now you just sound like a disgruntled employee bad mouthing and second guessing everything your former company does.  AND THAT IS DISRUPTIVE AND DELIBERATELY INFLAMMATORY.

[Eagle400]

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

We are.  It's just that some people are taking this way too seriously and thinking it's something it's not.  So far I've been accused of forcing my opinion on others, and acting like a disgruntled former member.  What's next? 

[Eagle400]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

[lordmonar]

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

We are.  It's just that some people are taking this way too seriously and thinking it's something it's not.  So far I've been accused of forcing my opinion on others, and acting like a disgruntled former member.  What's next? 

Smitty,

You need to take a chill pill.  You troll onto the forums....ask an "innocent" question and then YOU are the one who gets a his underwear into a bunch when we tell you that it does not matter or is just a stupid question.  As far as my position on you in all thing having to do with CAP.  The only two intelligent questions/comments I would like to hear from you is...."how does one join CAP" and/or "Where is a good squadron withing 20 miles of my current location".

Other than that...you opinion and your wish to satisfy your curiosity with inane questions....you can just take those away with you.

Bottom line.....you don't rate an opinion on whether senior members should be allowed to wear solo wings or not.  Join up and then you can speak your peace.

NOTE

This is not a blanket policy for any and all non-CAP members.....Smitty is a special case.

[FARRIER]

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply

That is correct. Not a direct quote from the regulations but from talking with Air Transport Pilots and Flight Engineers, who were former military aviators, they just have test out/take the practical. 

I'll back what I said. Here is the link to the regulation, FAR 61.73:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/0/c178bbb641ee695f86256959004bcb1c?OpenDocument

[lordmonar]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

[Eagle400]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

Biased against me by his own admission.  Nice. 

Capt Harris, If you've got something against me, why not just take it to a PM and save everyone else's eyes? 

[DNall]

[That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

(sarcatic) Yeah...that is exactally why CAP aviators wear them.  And to think they've all been carrying those CAPF 101 cards

I don't care why people want to wear them, and you can't read a 101 card from 20 feet away, especially from inside a wallet. There's a reason things are auth on the uniform & that has to stay the central focus in wear policy. Immature pride as an incentive to membership should not be encouraged in our regulations.

You can think what you want, but the act of solo or flight training in general is meaningful on a cadet as it advances our AE mission, but not meaningful on an adult as it has no operational usefulness, and is not valuable for adult AE. The purpose of cadet AE is to lead them down the road to being leaders in aviation. The purpose of AE with adults (both internal & external) is to advance aviation & airpower agendas in the public & political forum - not learn to fly.

I'll back what I said. Here is the link to the regulation, FAR 61.73

I understand that... In the Army (and this has not always been the case), you are required to take the civilian exams as part of your training progression & are flight tested according to FAA standards... you have no choice but to also hold the FAA ratings. All the IPs are rated CFIs & CFIIs. They make a point of ensuring everything is directly transferable. I know not all the services are that way, and frankly I'm not sure how good an idea it is on the Army's part as it probably doesn't encourage retention after the initial service obligation. Either way it's symantics since a simple test & check-ride gets you certified.

[RiverAux]

You can think what you want, but the act of solo or flight training in general is meaningful on a cadet as it advances our AE mission, but not meaningful on an adult as it has no operational usefulness, and is not valuable for adult AE.

Thats not terribly rational as our AE mission is for both youths and adults and I think we should be just as happy if one of our senior members takes the step towards becoming a pilot as we would be if it was a cadet.  It is also doesn't make sense given your own argument -- it does apply towards our operations since you can't become a mission pilot without soloing -- it is a necessary first step. 

[jimmydeanno]

You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC.

Why can't you?  I don't see anything that says you have to have soloed in a CAP Aircraft...

Most cadets I know that have solo wings have earned them through private instruction rather than CAP instruction.

[MIKE]

3-2. b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.

Emphasis added.

1-6. a. CAP Aircraft. Any aircraft (either member owned/furnished or CAP corporate) used in a CAP flight activity.

[lordmonar]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

Biased against me by his own admission.  Nice. 

Capt Harris, If you've got something against me, why not just take it to a PM and save everyone else's eyes? 

All you got to do...is join CAP.

[DNall]

No it's pretty clear that the purpose of AE with youth (both cadets & external ) is different than with adults (both officers & external). We inspire youth to aviation mindedness & promote an aviation/airpower agenda through adults to public opinion/congress. There's a reason adults can't earn a model rocketry badge, and that the yeager program is a familiarization couse designed to create a fondation from which to teach kids. The AE you're supposed to do as an adult is to follow Billy Mitchell.

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

[Psicorp]

You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC.

Why can't you?  I don't see anything that says you have to have soloed in a CAP Aircraft...

Most cadets I know that have solo wings have earned them through private instruction rather than CAP instruction.

That's because CAP wings are specific to CAP.   In order to be awarded solo wings, you need to provide documentation that you've soloed.  It doesn't matter if you soloed with a CAP CFI in a CAP aircraft or with a CAP CFI in a non-CAP aircraft or with a non-CAP CFI in a non-CAP aircraft.   What matters is that you've passed the FAA Ground School exam and your instructor has felt confident enough in you to let you go up on your own.  That's it.  It's CAP that awards the wings.

The same goes with CAP pilot wings.  You can be a commercial, multi-engine, CFI but you can't wear CAP pilot wings without first meeting the CAP requirements and have them awarded by CAP.

[Major Lord]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

[Psicorp]

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, sir.

In order to be a Mission Observer, the SQTR says that you must first be a Mission Scanner.    For Mission Pilot, the "stepping stones" are Mission Scanner and Mission Transport Pilot.  100 hours of PIC and 50 hours of Cross Country for Transport Pilot and 200 hours of PIC are all that's needed for Mission Pilot.   

It's not hard to see how CAP could turn out our own Mission Pilots from scratch in relatively short order, if the National Board decides to allow it.

[Psicorp]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

The reg states "in CAP aircraft", but I don't understand why it should matter what aircraft is utilized (CAP flight activity or otherwise).  CAP isn't going to allow a 16 year old with solo wings to take up, on his or her own, a CAP airplane afterwards to build hours, so why should what aircraft or what CFI the student utilizes?

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, sir.   If someone wears wings (or rank or badges) not signed off on by CAP, then yes, they aren't legit.   

I can tell I'm getting older by my continual use of the phrase, "did you document that?"