Should CAP Solo Wings be Only for Cadets?

[Eagle400]

Currently, both CAP cadets and officers can wear the solo wings.

They are based on the cadet solo wings for both AFROTC and USAFA.

Because of this, should the CAP solo wings be authorized only for cadets?

[O-Rex]

They are based on the cadet solo wings for both AFROTC and USAFA.

And on that premise, you don't see Commissioned USAF officers wearing them. . . . .

[Eagle400]

And on that premise, you don't see Commissioned USAF officers wearing them. . . . .

Right.  That's why I believe CAP officers shouldn't be wearing the CAP solo wings. 

[SarDragon]

And on that premise, you don't see Commissioned USAF officers wearing them. . . . .

Right.  That's why I believe CAP officers shouldn't be wearing the CAP solo wings. 

And whyzat? An SM works just as hard to get his as a cadet does. If cadets can be CAP pilots, then SMs should be able to show the equivalent levels of achievement as cadets.

Go troll somewhere else.

[DNall]

I tend to agree actually that they should not be for adults, just as the cadet program is not for adults, and hopefully adults don't need a shiney or colorful new trinket every other month to motivate them to get things done. Hopefully their brains have developed a bit over the years & they can take the long view that they are getting their pilot's license for the right reasons & not for something to wear on a uniform. Gosh that'd be really expensive decoration.

[O-Rex]

Solo wings are awarded only to Cadets.

By the time the cadet transitions to Senior, he/she should move-on (operationally) to OBS or MTP/MO

A CAP Major with solo wings is cheesy, and mil folks snicker when the see it.

[shorning]

So do we take away the NCSA patches for senior too?  To we prohibit cadets from wearing specialty track badges is it is a program designed for seniors?  Using the AFROTC/USAFA argument, do we take pilot wings away from cadets since those organizations don't allow cadets to wear them?

Where do you draw the line?

[Major Carrales]

I tend to think that, as a non-pilot, if a non-pilot comes to CAP and takes instruction (of course outside of CAP) that, as a motivation of Aerospace Education, they might be deserving of a set of solo wings when that stage is reached.

The reason is that I consider it a personal milestone go through instruction and become a pilot.  I would even go as far to to say we should encourage and support (morally and acedemically) CAP Officers in their aviation growth.


Once a CAP Officer finishes and becomes an MP or MO they will no longer need or wear solo wings.  I guess it my be a sort of transitional thing learning pilots.

Since I likely will not become a pilot anytime soon, due to finances and other diversions in CAP, this will not effect me one way or the other.

[shorning]

A CAP Major with solo wings is cheesy, and mil folks snicker when the see it.

I've got solo wings.  I've never had a military "folk" snicker at me.  Of course, I don't wear them often.  Should I feel like wearing wings, I'll wear my real ones, not CAP's.

[SarDragon]

Solo wings are awarded only to Cadets.

By the time the cadet transitions to Senior, he/she should move-on (operationally) to OBS or MTP/MO

A CAP Major with solo wings is cheesy, and mil folks snicker when the see it.

Emphasis mine.

According to CAPR 35-6:

b. CAP Solo Pilot Rating: Be qualified in accordance with CAPR 60-1.

According to CAPR 60-1:

b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.

Nowhere does it say cadets only.

[DNall]

NCSA patches off adults? Yeah that sounds fine too. And people can't snicker if you don't wear them in public.

[mikeylikey]

NCSA patches off adults? Yeah that sounds fine too. And people can't snicker if you don't wear them in public.

Ohhh....don't say that, you may get run down by a bunch of HAWK Rangers. 

I think as soon as CAP lets its Senior Members take flight lessons in CAP planes from CAP Pilots then we can wear our solo wings.  I have no good reasoning for that, except I want to see this happen.  They have no intention to allow it, and they suck for that!

[Eagle400]

And on that premise, you don't see Commissioned USAF officers wearing them. . . . .

Right.  That's why I believe CAP officers shouldn't be wearing the CAP solo wings. 

And whyzat? An SM works just as hard to get his as a cadet does. If cadets can be CAP pilots, then SMs should be able to show the equivalent levels of achievement as cadets.

I understand where you're coming from, sir.  But the CAP solo wings are designed after the cadet solo wings of AFROTC and USAFA.  That's why I believe they should only be worn by cadets.  I know when I become a senior, I won't wear mine.

Air Force officers don't have wings which denote a private pilot's license, so why should CAP officers?  The only wings in the Air Force (for officers) are the ones for pilots, navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.   

Go troll somewhere else.

Now sir, if Lt Col Horning can post in a topic I've authored without calling me a troll, so can you.  Deal? 

Besides, please show me how this thread is disrupting the operation of this online community, and any posts which are deliberately inflammatory.   

[BillB]

122, Hate to tell you this, but CAP had the solo wings before AFROTC or USAFA. Solo wings first appeared in the very early 1950's for CAP, They appeared for AFROTC in the late 50's (possibly early 60's., don't have the exact date). In the 1980's USAF published a brochure with the history of the various authorized wings of the 20th Century. And the information stated the AFROTC solo wings were designed from the CAP solo wings. Cost was a factor since the design and dies already existed and could be modified with little expense.

[LTC_Gadget]

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply.

As for solo wings, I earned  mine as a cadet.  And until such time as I earned observer wings, you can bet your six that I wore them.  As I said I earned them.  Not 'half-wings' for trying, not a button for thinkin' about it, but a legitimate, authorized badge for doing it.  Had I not ever advanced to any other aeronautical rating, no matter what the reason, I'd still have earned them; which is still something that not everyone in the org does. Snicker if you want to, but it'll still be sour grapes.

I earned my IACE ribbon as a cadet.  So, since IACE is designed as a cadet special activity, by your "logic," I shouldn't wear that either..

You're just not thinkin' this through...

V/R,

[Major Carrales]

Air Force officers don't have wings which denote a private pilot's license, so why should CAP officers?  The only wings in the Air Force (for officers) are the ones for pilots, navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.   

For the umpteenth time, CAP and the USAF are vastly different organizations.   A private pilot's  license may carry little weight in the USAF, but it is the life breath of CAP.  

Should 1st Lt Juan Tufly, a CADET PROGRAMs GURU...descides to become a Private Pilot at his expense, why not note his achievement with solo wing when that stage is reached?  Once he gets his certificate...most likely he will eventually become a Mission Pilot, in time.

Thus, solo wings on a CAP Officer would say..."Look, I'm becoming a pilot" not, look "I've got useless BLING over my ribbons!" 

Plus, your agruement on the USAF is fundamentally flawed.  By your reasoning it seems that you would call for CAP specific navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.   Is that your intent?

[FARRIER]

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply

That is correct. Not a direct quote from the regulations but from talking with Air Transport Pilots and Flight Engineers, who were former military aviators, they just have test out/take the practical. 

[Eagle400]

For the umpteenth time, CAP and the USAF are vastly different organizations.   A private pilot's  license may carry little weight in the USAF, but it is the life breath of CAP.

I wouldn't say a private pilot's license is the life breath of CAP... volunteerism is more like the life breath of CAP.    

Should 1st Lt Juan Tufly, a CADET PROGRAMs GURU...descides to become a Private Pilot at his expense, why not note his achievement with solo wing when that stage is reached?  Once he gets his certificate...most likely he will eventually become a Mission Pilot, in time.

Thus, solo wings on a CAP Officer would say..."Look, I'm becoming a pilot" not, look "I've got useless BLING over my ribbons!"

I understand.  I didn't mean to imply that solo wings are "useless bling."

Plus, your agruement on the USAF is fundamentally flawed.  By your reasoning it seems that you would call for CAP specific navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.   Is that your intent?

No, that is not my intent sir.  My intent is to argue for CAP solo wings only for cadets because that's the way it is with solo wings in the Air Force.   

[Major Carrales]

I wouldn't say a private pilot's license is the life breath of CAP... volunteerism is more like the life breath of CAP.   

Normally I would agree, but if it were not for ALL ELEMENTS of CAP, including the Pilots, Cadets and Ground elements.  We could not be viable.  Part of the WHOLE CAP APPROACH is that all elements are of equal value.  There would be no CIVIL AIR PATROL, without private pilots.  Thus, I see no harm in giving "solo wings" to a CAP Officer who has soloed.  It would be a positive sign that one of our number is taking to the air. 

I understand.  I didn't mean to imply that solo wings are "useless bling."

I understand...however, the tenor of your writing seems to suggest that a CAP Officer's SOLO WING would somehow be lesser than that of a CAP CADET.   I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you.

That having been expressed, you will have to choose your words carefully if you are to avoid that situation. 

No, that is not my intent sir.  My intent is to argue for CAP solo wings only for cadets because that's the way it is with solo wings in the Air Force.   

Respectfully, I go back to my main point.  CAP and the USAF are fundamentally different.  There are processes and traditions that are just as different.  That is not to say we should not try to emulate them; but rather, that there are going to be differences and "distinctive" elements to both.

I would submit that the wear of solo wings by CAP Officers enrolled in flight training who have soloed would/could be one such place for a distinction.

[Major Lord]

My reading of the regs is that that Cadets earn solo wings by going to an NCSA, to wit, National Flight Academy. You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC. Not many Seniors have soloed in CAP AC, and for darn sure, no Seniors have have soloed at Flight Encampment! I suppose a cadet who transitioned to Senior could keep his solo wings, if it was the highest award he earned....But since we don't send C/A1C's to NCSA's that seems unlikely.

Capt. Lord

[Major Carrales]

My reading of the regs is that that Cadets earn solo wings by going to an NCSA, to wit, National Flight Academy. You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC. Not many Seniors have soloed in CAP AC, and for darn sure, no Seniors have have soloed at Flight Encampment! I suppose a cadet who transitioned to Senior could keep his solo wings, if it was the highest award he earned....But since we don't send C/A1C's to NCSA's that seems unlikely.

Capt. Lord

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

[DNall]

NCSA patches off adults? Yeah that sounds fine too. And people can't snicker if you don't wear them in public.

Ohhh....don't say that, you may get run down by a bunch of HAWK Rangers. 

I think as soon as CAP lets its Senior Members take flight lessons in CAP planes from CAP Pilots then we can wear our solo wings.  I have no good reasoning for that, except I want to see this happen.  They have no intention to allow it, and they suck for that!

Whatever, I get to go to real ranger school & then display it no where at all on my CAP uniform.

Far as flight training, that's being talked about on the NEC thread, but historically CAP isabout taking outside pre-existing talents & using them to do missions for the AF... NOT about training those skils inside, be that pilot or something like EMT or even adequate officership for that matter. Now SHOULD we be offering some of that stuff or at least assistance to get it elsewhere? Absolutely!

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply.

Well that's not WHY they don't wear them. You can indicate EMT on a uniform, but not your status as a firefighter or police officer. That's cause one has something to do with the mission & the other doesn't.

And, I don't know about the AF, but in the Army you absolutely do get FAA certifications for commercial, and later IP/CFI. The civilian certifications are used as benchmarks & conducted as a benefit to the pilots.

For the umpteenth time, CAP and the USAF are vastly different organizations.   A private pilot's  license may carry little weight in the USAF, but it is the life breath of CAP.

That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

I don't know what anyone EARNS on IACE by the way, it's a diplomatic vacation. I say again trinkets for baby-steps are for cadets, not adults that should be doing things for their own sake & worried about display of only the really meaningful stuff in the most professional way.

Oh, and from what I've heard, CAC is has been working for some time on clarifying these are only for cadets, but I don't know.

[Major Carrales]

[That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

(sarcatic) Yeah...that is exactally why CAP aviators wear them.  And to think they've all been carrying those CAPF 101 cards...WOW...my pilots have been meshuggeners the whole time.  All they needed was to wear their wings.   

Enough joking...Dennis, you well know that the case you mention above is unrealistic.  Going to someone because they are "wearing wings" is not a good sign of "I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here," that comes from knowing the people you fly with or from collected wisdom at briefings.

Plus, would not some one with solo wings also be saying "look, I'm bettering myself as an aviator to assist CAP...please help/support me?"

I'm sorry Dennis, the BOVINEFECALOMETER was going critical on that one paragraph.

[lordmonar]

I know when I become a senior, I won't wear mine.

Why is there such an attitude of....."I don't want to wear them for such and such reason and so no one should be able to wear them"?

You don't want to wear them...fine....but don't mandate the non-wearing of them to those people who want to/like to wear them.

Air Force officers don't have wings which denote a private pilot's license, so why should CAP officers?  The only wings in the Air Force (for officers) are the ones for pilots, navigators, air battle managers, astronauts, flight surgeons, flight nurses, and aircrew members.

Not to repeat the obvious...but..we are NOT the real USAF.
   

Go troll somewhere else.

Now sir, if Lt Col Horning can post in a topic I've authored without calling me a troll, so can you.  Deal? 

Besides, please show me how this thread is disrupting the operation of this online community, and any posts which are deliberately inflammatory.   

Because you sir are NOT....I SAY AGAIN...NOT a member of CAP....and yet you troll (yes troll) around two different forums offering your opinions on CAP, the operation, uniform and politics there of.

It is kind of one of those put up or shut up things.....scape up the money, find a unit and then join...any you buy yourself a bit of creditability and a "right" to actually have an opinion on any CAP related subject you feel like posting about.  Right now you just sound like a disgruntled employee bad mouthing and second guessing everything your former company does.  AND THAT IS DISRUPTIVE AND DELIBERATELY INFLAMMATORY.

[Eagle400]

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

We are.  It's just that some people are taking this way too seriously and thinking it's something it's not.  So far I've been accused of forcing my opinion on others, and acting like a disgruntled former member.  What's next? 

[Eagle400]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

[lordmonar]

Hold on...I thought we were discussing "theoreticals" this occasion.

We are.  It's just that some people are taking this way too seriously and thinking it's something it's not.  So far I've been accused of forcing my opinion on others, and acting like a disgruntled former member.  What's next? 

Smitty,

You need to take a chill pill.  You troll onto the forums....ask an "innocent" question and then YOU are the one who gets a his underwear into a bunch when we tell you that it does not matter or is just a stupid question.  As far as my position on you in all thing having to do with CAP.  The only two intelligent questions/comments I would like to hear from you is...."how does one join CAP" and/or "Where is a good squadron withing 20 miles of my current location".

Other than that...you opinion and your wish to satisfy your curiosity with inane questions....you can just take those away with you.

Bottom line.....you don't rate an opinion on whether senior members should be allowed to wear solo wings or not.  Join up and then you can speak your peace.

NOTE

This is not a blanket policy for any and all non-CAP members.....Smitty is a special case.

[FARRIER]

USAF pilots don't earn private pilot  certificates automagically.  It's a separate process.  That's  why they don't wear them.  If they want private pilot certification, I think they still have to apply

That is correct. Not a direct quote from the regulations but from talking with Air Transport Pilots and Flight Engineers, who were former military aviators, they just have test out/take the practical. 

I'll back what I said. Here is the link to the regulation, FAR 61.73:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/0/c178bbb641ee695f86256959004bcb1c?OpenDocument

[lordmonar]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

[Eagle400]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

Biased against me by his own admission.  Nice. 

Capt Harris, If you've got something against me, why not just take it to a PM and save everyone else's eyes? 

[DNall]

[That's just not true. The purpose of wings on a uniform is to display operational qualification (I need a pilot, there's one), or past experience (I need advice on how this weather patern is going to effect the search area, hey you come here). A basic private pilot rating is not helpful in that process, and certainly solo is not (especially since it can also indicate glider or baloon).

(sarcatic) Yeah...that is exactally why CAP aviators wear them.  And to think they've all been carrying those CAPF 101 cards

I don't care why people want to wear them, and you can't read a 101 card from 20 feet away, especially from inside a wallet. There's a reason things are auth on the uniform & that has to stay the central focus in wear policy. Immature pride as an incentive to membership should not be encouraged in our regulations.

You can think what you want, but the act of solo or flight training in general is meaningful on a cadet as it advances our AE mission, but not meaningful on an adult as it has no operational usefulness, and is not valuable for adult AE. The purpose of cadet AE is to lead them down the road to being leaders in aviation. The purpose of AE with adults (both internal & external) is to advance aviation & airpower agendas in the public & political forum - not learn to fly.

I'll back what I said. Here is the link to the regulation, FAR 61.73

I understand that... In the Army (and this has not always been the case), you are required to take the civilian exams as part of your training progression & are flight tested according to FAA standards... you have no choice but to also hold the FAA ratings. All the IPs are rated CFIs & CFIIs. They make a point of ensuring everything is directly transferable. I know not all the services are that way, and frankly I'm not sure how good an idea it is on the Army's part as it probably doesn't encourage retention after the initial service obligation. Either way it's symantics since a simple test & check-ride gets you certified.

[RiverAux]

You can think what you want, but the act of solo or flight training in general is meaningful on a cadet as it advances our AE mission, but not meaningful on an adult as it has no operational usefulness, and is not valuable for adult AE.

Thats not terribly rational as our AE mission is for both youths and adults and I think we should be just as happy if one of our senior members takes the step towards becoming a pilot as we would be if it was a cadet.  It is also doesn't make sense given your own argument -- it does apply towards our operations since you can't become a mission pilot without soloing -- it is a necessary first step. 

[jimmydeanno]

You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC.

Why can't you?  I don't see anything that says you have to have soloed in a CAP Aircraft...

Most cadets I know that have solo wings have earned them through private instruction rather than CAP instruction.

[MIKE]

3-2. b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.

Emphasis added.

1-6. a. CAP Aircraft. Any aircraft (either member owned/furnished or CAP corporate) used in a CAP flight activity.

[lordmonar]

I should point out, as a friend, that you lack some gravitas on this board and, while you and I have never been anything but respectful, there are those that have a biased view...biased in the negative slant, towards you [12211985].

You got that right, sir. 

Becaus Smitty can't take a hint.

Biased against me by his own admission.  Nice. 

Capt Harris, If you've got something against me, why not just take it to a PM and save everyone else's eyes? 

All you got to do...is join CAP.

[DNall]

No it's pretty clear that the purpose of AE with youth (both cadets & external ) is different than with adults (both officers & external). We inspire youth to aviation mindedness & promote an aviation/airpower agenda through adults to public opinion/congress. There's a reason adults can't earn a model rocketry badge, and that the yeager program is a familiarization couse designed to create a fondation from which to teach kids. The AE you're supposed to do as an adult is to follow Billy Mitchell.

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

[Psicorp]

You can't earn solo wings from your FBO, it has to be a CAP AC.

Why can't you?  I don't see anything that says you have to have soloed in a CAP Aircraft...

Most cadets I know that have solo wings have earned them through private instruction rather than CAP instruction.

That's because CAP wings are specific to CAP.   In order to be awarded solo wings, you need to provide documentation that you've soloed.  It doesn't matter if you soloed with a CAP CFI in a CAP aircraft or with a CAP CFI in a non-CAP aircraft or with a non-CAP CFI in a non-CAP aircraft.   What matters is that you've passed the FAA Ground School exam and your instructor has felt confident enough in you to let you go up on your own.  That's it.  It's CAP that awards the wings.

The same goes with CAP pilot wings.  You can be a commercial, multi-engine, CFI but you can't wear CAP pilot wings without first meeting the CAP requirements and have them awarded by CAP.

[Major Lord]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

[Psicorp]

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, sir.

In order to be a Mission Observer, the SQTR says that you must first be a Mission Scanner.    For Mission Pilot, the "stepping stones" are Mission Scanner and Mission Transport Pilot.  100 hours of PIC and 50 hours of Cross Country for Transport Pilot and 200 hours of PIC are all that's needed for Mission Pilot.   

It's not hard to see how CAP could turn out our own Mission Pilots from scratch in relatively short order, if the National Board decides to allow it.

[Psicorp]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

The reg states "in CAP aircraft", but I don't understand why it should matter what aircraft is utilized (CAP flight activity or otherwise).  CAP isn't going to allow a 16 year old with solo wings to take up, on his or her own, a CAP airplane afterwards to build hours, so why should what aircraft or what CFI the student utilizes?

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, sir.   If someone wears wings (or rank or badges) not signed off on by CAP, then yes, they aren't legit.   

I can tell I'm getting older by my continual use of the phrase, "did you document that?"

[DNall]

We don't recognize scanner as a stepping stone to observer, and we don't recognize solo or private pilot, insterment, CFI, etc in any capacity including as a stepping stone to MP.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, sir.

I mean there's no badge, or need of one, cause it's merely a stepping stone. If an adult solos as a stepping stone to MP, then it equally doesn't need recognition (badge). If a cadet does so as part of our mission to educate youth toward aerospace-mindedness & aviation careers possibly including military aviation... then it's more worthy. That & the bar for a cadet award is lower. We give them regular promotions, badges, ribbons fortiny accomplishments cause their young minds are motivated by such things. Adults are more mature then that. They may want a badge to hold over the heads of others & prove how much better they are than you, but they aren't easily motivated by the badge itself or the act of recognition. That's why the rules should be different, cause the mission & objectives are different.

[RiverAux]

3-2. b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft

To me that does not say that the solo had to have been done in a CAP aircraft especially since you see the same wording for the CAP Pilot rating:

CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft

Now, does that mean that to be a CAP pilot you had to have gotten your private pilot certificate in a CAP aircraft?  I think not.

[DNall]

good catch... the reg section seems to be giving standards by which an individual would be able to operate a CAP aircraft to solo, not for award of a badge.

[Major Lord]

Respectfully LT, that would make perfect sense: Its just not what the regulation concering the matter says. As Mr. Al Gore, the noted meteorolgist and great thinker once said "theres no controlling legal authority"
In the context of CAP, this means we are not going to make a little laddie cry after he has spent a ton of his parents money to get his solo wings by telling him his solo wings are not legit.

Is that a pledge pin on your UNIFORM?

Capt. Lord

The reg states "in CAP aircraft", but I don't understand why it should matter what aircraft is utilized (CAP flight activity or otherwise).  CAP isn't going to allow a 16 year old with solo wings to take up, on his or her own, a CAP airplane afterwards to build hours, so why should what aircraft or what CFI the student utilizes?

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, sir.   If someone wears wings (or rank or badges) not signed off on by CAP, then yes, they aren't legit.   

I can tell I'm getting older by my continual use of the phrase, "did you document that?"

My last sentence about a pledge pin on your uniform? Or that there is no controlling legal authority? My point is that it is not licit for a cadet to wear wings he did not earn under the control of CAP, but that  you seem to be happy to just ignore the regs and put on the wings, substituting your judgement of what is fair and equitable, for what is "legal". That can lead to all sorts of bad things (you know, having people take your AFI tests for you and such)

Let me say it clearly: If you did not get the wings under CAP control, they are not legitimate.  Any more than my NRA Distinguished Expert medal qualifies me to wear a military marksmanship badge. It may not be fair, it may make Jr cry, but thats the way it is.

Of course, the 60-1 could be changed, and it could be made permissable to earn yor wings ( if solo wings really count as wings) by other means. Perhaps we could have a microsoft flight sim version for those kids who can't pass an FAA physical? Its just so unfair that a kid who is visually challenged and quadraplegeic can't get wings too!

Capt. Lord

[lordmonar]

Let me say it clearly: If you did not get the wings under CAP control, they are not legitimate.  Any more than my NRA Distinguished Expert medal qualifies me to wear a military marksmanship badge. It may not be fair, it may make Jr cry, but thats the way it is.

b. CAP Solo Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP solo pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Possess a valid FAA student pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a valid, current medical certificate (not required for gliders or balloons).
(4) Have received the required instruction from an FAA authorized flight instructor (CFI/CFIG), have a written record documenting instruction, for the appropriate aircraft, in accordance with FAR 61.87, and possess a current solo endorsement IAW FARs from a CAP instructor pilot.
(5) CAP glider student pilots will have a minimum of thirty (30) dual instruction training flights and a properly documented logbook/training record ensuring all required areas of FAR 61.87, Solo Requirements for Student Pilots, are met prior to initial solo. First time, wing level or higher, glider encampment/academy students are restricted to CAP cadet pre-solo pilot qualification only.

Got to say...that you are 100% wrong Capt Lord.

The only mention of CAP control is specifically for glider students. 

The phase "To be qualified in CAP aircraft" is an after the fact....that is....once they have earned the CAP Solo rating they are now qualified to fly CAP aircraft solo....but it DOES NOT mean you have to DO THE SOLO IN A CAP aircraft.  Just as the requirements for CAP pilot read

c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:

By your read no pilot could get his wings unless he completed his training under CAP control....oh...that's right....CAP is specifically forbidden to give initial pilot training to senior members.

Do you see how you interpretation of the regulations breaks down.  ANYONE who completes their solo in any aircraft is eligible for CAP Solo Wings.

[DNall]

okay so now we've determined it's a badly written reg that needs to be fixed & no one has a fundamentaql problem with cadets getting solo wings for outside flight training, everyone stipulates on that I believe. If you disagree on the interpretation then ask Susie Parker & be done with it.

Now the question goes back to the orgiginal post... should adults be eligible for solo wings as well? If so then what about pre-solo, or model rocketry, or O-flights, or able to choose to fo thru the cadet program rather than adult side despite being 42yo, can they choose to stay a cadet & test for spaatz at 25.... you understand there are dif obkectives for cadets & adults, and that solo is not meaningful in the range of adult objectives. That is why I think it shouldn't be authorized.

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

[lordmonar]

Now the question goes back to the original post... should adults be eligible for solo wings as well?

Yes.

If so then what about pre-solo, or model rocketry, or O-flights, or able to choose to fo thru the cadet program rather than adult side despite being 42yo, can they choose to stay a cadet & test for spaatz at 25.... you understand there are dif obkectives for cadets & adults, and that solo is not meaningful in the range of adult objectives. That is why I think it shouldn't be authorized.

I disagree that Solo is not  meaningful in a range of adult objectives.  I know that I am going to be [darn] proud of when I do my first solo.  Will I go out and buy my solo wings and Leather namepatch....no....but I expect to have my Observer wings by then...but if I were wingless I would.

Also the argument that some things for cadets are not for seniors...ergo all things for cadets should not be for seniors does not wash....or there will be a lot of Comm guys and GT members who need to take off their badges. 

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

I would say that there should be a CAP Training Wings....you get the basic when you finish ground school and pass your written, get the star when you solo and then you get the wreath when you Privet Pilot.  That whole pre-solo stuff just does not sit well with me....but ground school is a marked, objective and clear step on your way to getting your ticket.

[DNall]

I disagree that Solo is not  meaningful in a range of adult objectives.  I know that I am going to be [darn] proud of when I do my first solo.  Will I go out and buy my solo wings and Leather namepatch....no....but I expect to have my Observer wings by then...but if I were wingless I would.

And well YOU should be proud, for dang sure you should. That's you though, it has nothing to do with the objectives of CAP. I've been proud of a lot of things I've done in life, as I'm sure you have too, but very few of those things need or deserve a badge on your uniform.

My personal position is that the AE objectives for kids are very different from those for adults. I think that's been clearly addressed throughout our history & in our programs. With that in mind, I don't believe flight training for adults meets any AE objective, while I do belive it meets goals on the cadet side of AE.

Also the argument that some things for cadets are not for seniors...ergo all things for cadets should not be for seniors does not wash....or there will be a lot of Comm guys and GT members who need to take off their badges. 

Actually that'd be the other way around. ES is not part of the cadet program or for cadets. It is something they are allowed to participate in to a limited degree after they've taken care of their primary duties in the cadet program. So if anything cadets would have to take those off, but that's not the case. They are operationally useful designators. You see though that cadets can't pass into aircrew/GTL till they pass 18, they can't get tech ratings or be assigned to staff postions as primary... there are lots of things that are for aduls and not cadets, and vice versa. There are a few things that are shared when necessary & appropriate. I don't think solo wings comes into that category of necessary.

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system.

I would say that there should be a CAP Training Wings....you get the basic when you finish ground school and pass your written, get the star when you solo and then you get the wreath when you Privet Pilot.  That whole pre-solo stuff just does not sit well with me....but ground school is a marked, objective and clear step on your way to getting your ticket.

I don't feel very strongly on this whole subject ot be honest. I do thing adults w/ solo wings look pretty goofy. I also think this three wing level for ground, solo, & private pilot is a worthy way to do it. I still tend to think those should be cadet focused, but I don't really care that much. I may think you look silly wearing them, but it's probably not that big a deal.

[LTC_Gadget]

OK, it's evidently another instance where the regs have changed over time.  I earned mine back in the mid-70s before there was even a gleam of an idea for a national-level activity.  I'll trust your take, as I haven't read that portion "recently."  And as I said previously, it's an academic discussion for me now, anyway.  I earned mine at a *wing-level* flight encampment, so mine were still earned in "CAP aircraft." But, by your research, it would appear that "that was then, this is now."  It's kinda like the recruiter ribbon.  You can earn it as a cadet with very few recruits, but "now" to retain it as a senior, you (now) have to bring several more.  I love it (not) when they tighten/change the requirements "behind" you..

V/R,

[LTC_Gadget]

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

That conjecture is opinion, of course, and each member here is entitled to politely express his own.  So, I'll insert mine as well. 

Pre-solo is "pre"  the demonstration of any kind of flight skills, so pre-solo wings seem wrong, hopeful, falsely boastful to me.  You haven't actually *done* any independent flying yet. Sort of like you get a piece of paper that says "learner's permit" when you drive, but it doesn't say driver's license.  That reference is an imperfect analogy, of course, and could work to be a red herring, so let's please not digress on that here.  Getting private pilot is post-solo, so you'd be wearing pilot wings, and has nothing to do with the solo accomplishment, i.e, it's past it.

But, as I said, it's just an opinion. And we all know what opinions are like, eh?

One thing that no one else has mentioned up to now, and its somewhat non-sequitur as it's relatively 'ancient' history, is that their used to be a program just for female cadets in the sixties.  It was a stewardess encampment.   Yes, it said stewardess before it was considered non-PC to use that word.  At the conclusion of that program, they got a 'wing.'  It had the center CAP disk and one wing.. But, poking polite fun at Mr. Nall (or who?), does that mean that, looking at her one wing from across the plane, that she could be have been asked to 'help' fly the plane, just not done it herself.. 

V/R,

[BillB]

There were four Stewardess Schools operated by major airlines for CAP female cadets. The largest was in Miami sponsored by Eastern Airlines. The cadets learned the basics of flight safety inside the passenger areas, and even went through a water course on how to exit a ditched aircraft. Cadets that completed the school got the stewardess wings, but could NOT wear them after they turned senior (even though many did)The stewardess wings were the half wing in silver, modled after the enamel half wing for WW II Observers.

[DNall]

I do however believe it should be one set of wings with pre-solo being the basic, star on top for solo, and master level for private pilot. That would be a much better system. That or save a buck & just consolidate to use the exact same wings in use by AFROTC/AFJROTC/USAFA.

That conjecture is opinion, of course, and each member here is entitled to politely express his own.  So, I'll insert mine as well. 

Pre-solo is "pre"  the demonstration of any kind of flight skills, so pre-solo wings seem wrong, hopeful, falsely boastful to me.  You haven't actually *done* any independent flying yet. Sort of like you get a piece of paper that says "learner's permit" when you drive, but it doesn't say driver's license.  That reference is an imperfect analogy, of course, and could work to be a red herring, so let's please not digress on that here.  Getting private pilot is post-solo, so you'd be wearing pilot wings, and has nothing to do with the solo accomplishment, i.e, it's past it.

But, as I said, it's just an opinion. And we all know what opinions are like, eh?

One thing that no one else has mentioned up to now, and its somewhat non-sequitur as it's relatively 'ancient' history, is that their used to be a program just for female cadets in the sixties.  It was a stewardess encampment.   Yes, it said stewardess before it was considered non-PC to use that word.  At the conclusion of that program, they got a 'wing.'  It had the center CAP disk and one wing.. But, poking polite fun at Mr. Nall (or who?), does that mean that, looking at her one wing from across the plane, that she could be have been asked to 'help' fly the plane, just not done it herself.. 

Pilot wings are an operational designator that cames at the min150hr mark for TMP & are shared with the MP level.

I don't really like the pre-solo rating at all, but it's here & it looks almost indistinguishable from solo, which degrades that accomplishment. So, my suggestion would be the star at solo, and star/wreath at private pilot... which is still a training level to CAP pilot.

I'm kind of tired of hearing about the old stewardess program. It was shevenistic then & now. There was a time when females couldn't be fighter pilots & astronauts then retire to a cushy airline gig when they got done serving their country, a time when the best they could do in aviation was sling some drinks & shake it a little till a successful busniess man retired them to the kitchen (I'm going to get killed by a flight attendant now), but that hasn't been the case for a long long time. Just like slavery is in the past, can we not talk about one wing badges & stewardess programs, please. [/end overly dramatic moment] 

[FARRIER]

I'm kind of tired of hearing about the old stewardess program. It was shevenistic then & now. There was a time when females couldn't be fighter pilots & astronauts then retire to a cushy airline gig when they got done serving their country, a time when the best they could do in aviation was sling some drinks & shake it a little till a successful busniess man retired them to the kitchen (I'm going to get killed by a flight attendant now), but that hasn't been the case for a long long time. Just like slavery is in the past, can we not talk about one wing badges & stewardess programs, please. [/end overly dramatic moment] 

The Fight Attendant position is a safety position, not a "sling some drinks & shake it a little" position. They are there for the passengers' safety (see FAR 121.417 Crewmember Emergency Training and 121.421 Flight Attendants: Initial and  Transition Ground Training.)

To bring it back, for all cadets, it may not be a bad idea. It would provide some skills that they could build upon for future employment.

Dennis, your post currently degenerates the position. Why, You leave you disclaimer buried.

If anyone on this board gets a chance to view the Crew Resource Management tapes of the United Airlines Flight 232, Sioux City Crash, do so. This would show what Flight Attendants truly do.

[DNall]

Told ya I'd get jumped for that one. I understand what flight attendants do & I know all about their unappreciated skill & training... I think it's a great job, but I don't think it's what you take a kid & put in their head as a dream. You tell kids they can be president someday, that they can be astronauts & fighter pilots, that they can go to the Air Force Academy, and on to the moon. You don't tell them they can settle for a mundane job, important though it may be, you don't tell them they can aspire to be a role player, and you certainly don't incentivise that thinking by giving them a badge for it.

You do on the other hand want to push them toward being a pilot, which leads down the road to academy, fighter pilot, test pilot, astronaut... and probably in reality settles for some less than exciting in or out of aviation but as a lifelong proponent of aviation & airpower. That's what AE is about. It doesn't work the same way with adults that are past the dream of what they'll do when they grow up stage, or should be anyway.

[O-Rex]

Kudos to all the intrepid young men and women in our cadet program who have achieved the milestone of solo flight: they certainly deserve something for it, and may they wear them with pride.

By the time they get to the land of Seniors, they should be thinking about moving on, operationally.

Solo Wings on a Senior (particularly the more "mature" ones) says to me "Haven't been air-operational in a dog's-age, but I was hot-dookey back in the day......  Besides, I don't want my GT badge to get lonely, and all the other Senior Members at the B.S. session Squadron meeting have one."

Get operational, upgrade the bling, and put the solo wings in the scrapbook with all the other cadet momentos.

Next thing, someone will gripe about not being able to wear their model rocketry badge as a Senior ("Hey, I EARNED it!!!!!!!!! )

There's nothing like entitlement issues.

Flight attendants? I'm all for them: it'll break the monotony during ELT missions.......

How about a wing-like badge for those who can recite the lines to TOP GUN by heart?

[FARRIER]

Told ya I'd get jumped for that one. I understand what flight attendants do & I know all about their unappreciated skill & training... I think it's a great job, but I don't think it's what you take a kid & put in their head as a dream. You tell kids they can be president someday, that they can be astronauts & fighter pilots, that they can go to the Air Force Academy, and on to the moon. You don't tell them they can settle for a mundane job, important though it may be, you don't tell them they can aspire to be a role player, and you certainly don't incentivise that thinking by giving them a badge for it.

You do on the other hand want to push them toward being a pilot, which leads down the road to academy, fighter pilot, test pilot, astronaut... and probably in reality settles for some less than exciting in or out of aviation but as a lifelong proponent of aviation & airpower. That's what AE is about. It doesn't work the same way with adults that are past the dream of what they'll do when they grow up stage, or should be anyway.

Your not getting it Dennis. It is providing them with options. Yes, we want to give them an opportunity to become a pilot. But by saying we don't provide the other option because, in your mind, its mundane. How do you know that. Have you spent time time in the airline industry.

We are supposed to be providing options, all options. If by chance, that cadet, when he/she becomes an adult, fails the flight physical, they have another option if they want it.

And, it is not insensitive to provide such a badge, being a flight attendant is a safety position. How can providing a badge for getting even a portion of that training be insensitive?

Here is a perfect scenario. If there is a small fire in the cabin, and it requires manual input, who attends to it? Not the stick driver (pilot).

There are many people who spend 20 plus years in such a career and enjoy it. These days you have to have to have at least two years of college and speak at least another language to even work the job.

[BillB]

Stewardess School was not presented as a career path concept. It was an activity for female cadets that were locked out of most all cadet special activities during the period. The training was intense during a two week session.  And it delt with the airline industry, air safetyFAA flight centers and so on. Stewardess School was nere a coffee, tea or something stronger type activity. It was a CAP activity limited to female cadets, not a recruiting tool for airline stewardess's.

[DNall]

No you don't give them options. you don't put a menu of 350 things in front of them & let them pick. What they'll ultimately do is choose something that sounds a little exciting, but safe; something they aren't scared of failing at.

If you have it ingrained in their head that nothing short of the stars is acceptable then eventually most will settle for less, but that tiny few that can make it will. If you give them safe outs & allow them to take the lazy way without even trying, then the best & the brightest aren't what show up to the big game.

Our cadets tend to be among the best & the brightest & we don't need to give them an opportunity for anything but greatness. If they stumble along the way or make another choice then that's on them, but we need to be driving them hard so that doesn't happen. Just like holding the bike from behind when they're learning to ride & eventually you let go, and then they figure out they can do it w/o you pushing them.

Just to clarify, my dad is retired from Contenintal, flown all over the world a few times, dated a flight attendant for a long time, know tons of people who work in the industry, and most flight attendants I know are EMT-Is as well.

Far as it being a safety position... so is that kid that pulls the lever on the roller coaster & so is the 16yo lifeguard at the city pool, so is flight line on the 101... none of that needs a badge, and none of it is a thing to aspire to or recognize or incentivize. It is not where you push people to go.

[FARRIER]

Far as it being a safety position... so is that kid that pulls the lever on the roller coaster...

Equating a Flight Attendant to a Carny.....I've sat in on some Flight Attendant training, having worked at an Airline Flight Training Center. Very big difference.

[FARRIER]

Stewardess School was not presented as a career path concept. It was an activity for female cadets that were locked out of most all cadet special activities during the period. The training was intense during a two week session.  And it delt with the airline industry, air safetyFAA flight centers and so on. Stewardess School was nere a coffee, tea or something stronger type activity. It was a CAP activity limited to female cadets, not a recruiting tool for airline stewardess's.

:)It would be a great idea to revisit/modernize the idea.

[Major Carrales]

C'mon Dennis...just say you don't like solo wings and leave it at that.  Your arguments against them are quite insulting to more than a few here.  This can of worms you have opened on the "Flight attendant" thing is equally distasteful.

Since most CAP officers will never sport solo wings I think this is all sound and fury signifying nothing anyway.

Let's just call this topic finished.

[lordmonar]

No you don't give them options. you don't put a menu of 350 things in front of them & let them pick. What they'll ultimately do is choose something that sounds a little exciting, but safe; something they aren't scared of failing at.

The other side of that coin....is if you only offer them the hardest, best job as their only option and they fail....they will not be aware of any other meaningful jobs or careers.

If you have it ingrained in their head that nothing short of the stars is acceptable then eventually most will settle for less, but that tiny few that can make it will. If you give them safe outs & allow them to take the lazy way without even trying, then the best & the brightest aren't what show up to the big game.

Look up the Barbie sysndrom.   Women's health advocates hate models and Barbie dolls because they offer a image of perfection that is simply not attainable by a majority of the populace....but some will continue to try even to point of hurting themselves.  I am all for encouraging people to try as hard as they can for the best/coolest/highest paying carreers out there....but we all can't be pilots...someone has to serve dinner (and be there in case of emergencies  )...just like someone has to fix the engines, fuel the plane, load the baggage, sell the tickets, scan for bombs, schedule the fights and do all the paper work to make sure the passangers arrive safely and on time to their destinations.

Focusing only on pilots only makes all those other essantial workers into second class citezens.

Our cadets tend to be among the best & the brightest & we don't need to give them an opportunity for anything but greatness.

I would like to see what squadron you are in.....I would say that our cadets are more or less a sample of our communities....I have had the best and the brightest....and I have had rocks in uniform and everthing in-between.  We are not here for only the best and the brightest....we are here for all of our cadets.

If they stumble along the way or make another choice then that's on them, but we need to be driving them hard so that doesn't happen.

But your plan would just say....thanks for playing....we only train pilots here, and don't want or need anyone who can't or won't meet up to our expectations.

Far as it being a safety position... so is that kid that pulls the lever on the roller coaster & so is the 16yo lifeguard at the city pool, so is flight line on the 101... none of that needs a badge, and none of it is a thing to aspire to or recognize or incentivize. It is not where you push people to go.

Why do pilots "need" a badge but those other hard and important jobs don't?