Question on Shoes?

[Major Carrales]

OK, so a cadet comes to me and asks if the plain black shoes available at Wal*Mart are acceptable for CAP (price circa $23.)  Another comes to me with as advertisement for some Black patent leather band shows for something like (circa $21.)

I have consulted the regs that call for...

..."Black oxford; lace up style with a plain rounded toe or plain rounded capped toe; without perforation or design, sole will not exceed 1/2  inch in thickness and the heel will not exceed 1 inch in height....may have low wedged heel; smooth or scotch grained leather or man made material; high gloss or patent leather"

Both shoes meet the description.

I now consult the forum...

[MIKE]

I'd go for real leather ones even if they cost a bit more.... Easier to fix if you scuff em and they tend to breathe a bit better.  If you scuff the plastic shoes you kind of have to by new ones, and they are hot.  Wrecked two pairs WIWAC.  Live and learn.

[mikeylikey]

Black oxford.......any shoe that matches that will be fine!  The less expensive is not necessarily lacking in quality.  Save some $$ and search around!  SEE THIS -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_shoe

[Major Carrales]

I'd go for real leather ones even if they cost a bit more.... Easier to fix if you scuff em and they tend to breathe a bit better.  If you scuff the plastic shoe you kind of have to by new ones, and they are hot.  Wrecked two pairs WIWAC.  Live and learn.

Thank for the advice.  I don't liek the idea of cadets/cadet parents wasting any more money that is necessary.  If a good shoe fits the bill to those ends, then that is what I will recommend.

[Major Carrales]

Black oxford.......any shoe that matches that will be fine!  The less expensive is not necessarily lacking in quality.  Save some $$ and search around!  SEE THIS -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_shoe

Thanks, I visited that site just before making the post to see exactally what made up an "oxford."  I will order a pair of the "band shoes" for testing.  I assume that these would work sicne they are designed for marching on grass fields.

[jimmydeanno]

If both shoes meet the description, then they are fine.  Especially with cadets, if you're sending them to AAFES to pick up blues shoes at $60 a pop, they're going to go broke.  I have cadets in my squadron that wear the "wal*mart" blues shoes and they look fine and meet the regulations.

Even in the AF you will find a multitude of shoes and boots that all meet the "standard" but are not entirely "uniform."

I say let 'em wear it if it meets the requirements.

[MIKE]

Another cost saving option would be for the cadets to purchase a boot which would be suitable for both the BDU and the service uniform.  See CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 for details.

[Major Carrales]

Another cost saving option would be for the cadets to purchase a boot which would be suitable for both the BDU and the service uniform.  See CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 for details.

I have stayed away form that in the past ever since I saw an uninformed CAP Officer scold a cadet for wearing COMBAT BOOTS with BLUES.

What is the consensus of the forum on that matter?

[MIKE]

Another cost saving option would be for the cadets to purchase a boot which would be suitable for both the BDU and the service uniform.  See CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 for details.

I have stayed away form that in the past ever since I saw an uninformed CAP Officer scold a cadet for wearing COMBAT BOOTS with BLUES.

7 Footwear (Combat Boots) Black, with or without safety toe; must have a plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with
or without perforated seam; zipper or elastic inserts are optional; no designs. Highly polished, high gloss, or patent leather.

[Hawk200]

Another cost saving option would be for the cadets to purchase a boot which would be suitable for both the BDU and the service uniform.  See CAPM 39-1 Chapter 2 for details.

I did this quite a bit in the Air Force. Nowadays, I don't wear combat boots with blues, but instead a plain black Roper boot (the ones with the black stitching on the sole, not white). According to the pub (both CAP and Air Force) they meet the specifications of a dress boot. Shine them up with some Lincoln Stain, and they look real good. May be more expensive in some cases, but an option for those that don't want the combat look.

The AF used to have a stipulation that boots were not authorized with blues while in formation, but I can't find anything to that effect now. It may have been dropped out of the AFI as a common sense thing, or it may have been dropped in order to permit it. I don't know. If I wore any in a formation, I'd make certain that they were highly shined.

[Major Lord]

I suggest that you send your cadet to Big 5 sporting goods and have them buy the plain black Faux oxford with soft interior and rubber soles. These are safer and sturdier than leather soled duty shoes. Boots are legal to wear with blues, but for cadets, its all about the "Bling" ,and boots just don't bling. When I go to activities where I know there will be excessive walking in service dress, I do wear highly polished boots. Much more comfortable than dress shoes and you dont' ship pebbles over the gunwhales.

Capt. Lord

[Major Lord]

Oh, and of course, boots go well with kilts...

Capt. Lord

[SarDragon]

I suggest that you send your cadet to Big 5 sporting goods and have them buy the plain black Faux oxford with soft interior and rubber soles. These are safer and sturdier than leather soled duty shoes. Boots are legal to wear with blues, but for cadets, its all about the "Bling" ,and boots just don't bling. When I go to activities where I know there will be excessive walking in service dress, I do wear highly polished boots. Much more comfortable than dress shoes and you dont' ship pebbles over the gunwhales.

Capt. Lord

I dislike rubber soles for doing drill. They have more grip and make turning more difficult. Also, because of the grip, they tend to wear out faster than the leather soles.

[Major_Chuck]

Hmmm.   Patent leather pimp daddy shoes with a gold fish floating around in the heel.  That should be a mandatory shoe for the TPU.

[Eagle400]

One thing I've found is that shoes from name brand companies come shinier and than the ones from the BX and are easier to keep well-shined.  They're almost like patent leather.  A perfect example is the Florsheim Lexington.

Only downside is they come at $100 a pop.

I've found that the oxfords from K-Mart, Target, etc. are way cheaper but much harder to shine and keep well-shined.  The leather oxfords from the BX are kind of middle-of-the-road, esp. when it comes to price.    

[LTC_Gadget]

Kohls has been running some Nunn-Bush and some Dockers *real leather* oxfords that meet the requirement, and they're currently on sale for less than $35/pr around here (OK).  And no, I have no association with Kohls; no shilling for the house..

V/R,

[Eagle400]

Between Nunn-Bush and Dockers, the best shoes I found on the Kohl's website were the Dockers Manhattan dress shoes, on sale for $48.99.

Seems to me like Oklahoma has the best prices.  Lt Col Boyd, do you know which styles of Dockers and Nunn-Bush shoes (that meet the requirements) are being sold at Kohl's for $35/pr? 

[LTC_Gadget]

The Dockers were the Manhattans, I *think* that the Nunn-Bush were the 'Executive.' Didn't really help me though, I didn't find the sizes for which I was looking.

V/R,

[Al Sayre]

Check out Sportsmans Guide and Bargain Outfitters, they have some pretty good deals on footwear, both boots and shoes, that are suitable for uniform wear.

[DNall]

The AF used to have a stipulation that boots were not authorized with blues while in formation, but I can't find anything to that effect now. It may have been dropped out of the AFI as a common sense thing, or it may have been dropped in order to permit it. I don't know. If I wore any in a formation, I'd make certain that they were highly shined.

Common sense thing, it's still not going to go over well regardless of what the reg says. I don't know what kind of luck you may have, but we've got a lot of shoes from DRMO that are in great, even new condition. If they absolutely have to go off the res for shoes, I'd sure make certain that they match as best as possible.

The biggest thing I have against boots w/ blues is cadets will get the one pair of boots. One with full service dress, same one with SS blues, same w/ BDUs in formation, and same ones they wear climbing through the muddy woods for ES training. In general they're going to end up looking like azz & still get worn with blues, and that's in no way acceptable.

[ddelaney103]

Oh, and of course, boots go well with kilts...

Capt. Lord

I've never felt that boots went well with kilts.  None of the regiments wear anything higher than ankle high boots - and those are usually under spats.

[Hawk200]

Common sense thing, it's still not going to go over well regardless of what the reg says. I don't know what kind of luck you may have, but we've got a lot of shoes from DRMO that are in great, even new condition. If they absolutely have to go off the res for shoes, I'd sure make certain that they match as best as possible.

The biggest thing I have against boots w/ blues is cadets will get the one pair of boots. One with full service dress, same one with SS blues, same w/ BDUs in formation, and same ones they wear climbing through the muddy woods for ES training. In general they're going to end up looking like azz & still get worn with blues, and that's in no way acceptable.

Makes sense to me. I went to the Ropers because they looked better, although it was unusual for a few people in my unit at first. They shine a whole lot better than combat boots. Yes, I swear by Lincoln Stain Wax, I don't care what Kiwi comes up with, I think the Lincoln looks better. There were some people that didn't even notice that my footwear didn't have laces. But overall, I think they look better.

[Laplace]

We get boxes of shoes from local AF JROTC Units.  I found a DOD memo a few years back that directed JROTC Units to give uniform items to CAP or other groups in lieu of sending to DRMO.  I sent a copy to the JROTC Units and get boxes of shoes and Blues at the end of each school year. 

The shoes are generally in great condition.

[Sgt. Savage]

leather low quarters are always the most appropriate option. I don't mind a decent boot but what I've seen is Corcorans, un bloused (per regulation) and they look goofy. It may be my prior service mind but, jump boots need to be bloused, regardless of the uniform.

All of that having been said, cadets should acquire the least expensive, most compliant footwear possible. My daughter is a cadet and I bought her basic speed lace combat boots and a basic female issue pump. She has already grown out of one pair each and the combined cost was less than the Corcoran II's that she wanted.

[Al Sayre]

We get boxes of shoes from local AF JROTC Units.  I found a DOD memo a few years back that directed JROTC Units to give uniform items to CAP or other groups in lieu of sending to DRMO.  I sent a copy to the JROTC Units and get boxes of shoes and Blues at the end of each school year. 

The shoes are generally in great condition.

Have you got a copy of the memo or can you post a link?

[ColonelJack]

Oh, and of course, boots go well with kilts...

Capt. Lord

You know, I never felt that boots went well with kilts.  Hiking boots, perhaps, for traipsing through the highlands ... but the kind of boots we're discussing just don't do it for me.  Not that I'm an expert, mark you, but I have been wearing highland garb for a couple of decades now, and I never felt they looked right.  Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Jack

[capchiro]

If possible, I would also like a copy of the memo.  Then I will proceed to my local ROTC unit..

[CadetProgramGuy]

If possible, I would also like a copy of the memo.  Then I will proceed to my local ROTC unit..

I would like a copy as well please

[1LtNurseOfficer]

If possible, I would also like a copy of the memo.  Then I will proceed to my local ROTC unit..

I would appreciate one as well, sir.

[Laplace]

If possible, I would also like a copy of the memo.  Then I will proceed to my local ROTC unit..

I would appreciate one as well, sir.

I initially found it on the NHQ website, but it has not been there for a few years.  I'll try to get it scanned tommorrow and post copy on this thread.

[CadetProgramGuy]

If possible, I would also like a copy of the memo.  Then I will proceed to my local ROTC unit..

I would appreciate one as well, sir.

I initially found it on the NHQ website, but it has not been there for a few years.  I'll try to get it scanned tommorrow and post copy on this thread.

How is the scanning going?

[BillB]

Email National, they have a copy of the memo from Air Ubiversity, AFROTC to all AFROTC and AFJROTC units on surplus uniforms for CAP.  They sent me the memo 2-3 years ago, actually I think it was a AFROTC policy letter allowing CAP to get surplus uniforms including shoes

[Laplace]

Funny you should ask as I have been working on it this morning.  I scanned the memo, but cannot attach on here because "upload folder was full"? 

Here is the AFJROTC regulations of April 2006.  Section 2.9.5 on page 7 addresses uniform donations to CAP.  http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afjrotci23-101.pdf

If I figure out how to attach the memo, I will. 

Semper Vi

[mikeylikey]

^^
2.9. Unserviceable Uniform Disposal.
2.9.1. Inventory unserviceable items and prepare a list of all items to be disposed.
2.9.2. The Senior Aerospace Science Instructor (SASI)or principal must sign the list confirming disposal of the items. Maintain a copy of the list for 3 years.
2.9.3. Disposal of uniforms locally is authorized when the following procedures are completed:
2.9.3.1. Remove all buttons with the Air Force symbol from the service dress coat.
2.9.3.2. Remove all shoulder patches.
2.9.4. Unserviceable items may be thrown away.
2.9.5. Donate items to Civil Air Patrol if desired. Charitable/not-for-profit organizations and unofficial JROTC/Leadership Programs in middle schools and high schools are not authorized to receive donated uniforms.

Sounds like CAP is getting trash to me!  PLUS, don't remove the AF buttons if giving the coats to CAP.  THAT would be a waste.

I seriously doubt worn shoes and jackets with holes in them are what we are in need of.

[Laplace]

^^
2.9. Unserviceable Uniform Disposal.
2.9.1. Inventory unserviceable items and prepare a list of all items to be disposed.
2.9.2. The Senior Aerospace Science Instructor (SASI)or principal must sign the list confirming disposal of the items. Maintain a copy of the list for 3 years.
2.9.3. Disposal of uniforms locally is authorized when the following procedures are completed:
2.9.3.1. Remove all buttons with the Air Force symbol from the service dress coat.
2.9.3.2. Remove all shoulder patches.
2.9.4. Unserviceable items may be thrown away.
2.9.5. Donate items to Civil Air Patrol if desired. Charitable/not-for-profit organizations and unofficial JROTC/Leadership Programs in middle schools and high schools are not authorized to receive donated uniforms.

Sounds like CAP is getting trash to me!  PLUS, don't remove the AF buttons if giving the coats to CAP.  THAT would be a waste.

I seriously doubt worn shoes and jackets with holes in them are what we are in need of.

The above has not been my experiences with the units here.  The uniforms/service coats have had all their buttons and even some of the AFJROTC patches were still affixed.  Everything I received has been wearable.  I can't say the same for DRMO.

The shoes are used, but in very good condition.  If I have to throw away a couple out of a bag of 50, so what?

Shoes and service coats are the best things we get.  It has worked out great for our Wing.  I would try it and discontinue if you get "trash". 

[capchiro]

Is there any chance that DOD memo mentioned above directing ROTC units to give stuff to CAP instead of DRMO will appear?  It certainly would be helpful.  Thanks

[Laplace]

I scanned the memo, but cannot attach on here because "upload folder was full"? 

If I figure out how to attach the memo, I will. 

Semper Vi

Is there any chance that DOD memo mentioned above directing ROTC units to give stuff to CAP instead of DRMO will appear?  It certainly would be helpful.  Thanks

Still can't post it on the Board due to above.  I'll try to send via PM to all interested.

[O-Rex]

Only downside is they come at $100 a pop.

Might be a bit much for your 13-16 year-old Cadet who's probably going to outgrow them, but for Seniors, hey, they're Florsheims: you'll never have to buy another pair again!

I have a couple of pair of Florsheims for my "day job"  they shine real well.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I scanned the memo, but cannot attach on here because "upload folder was full"? 

If I figure out how to attach the memo, I will. 

Semper Vi

Is there any chance that DOD memo mentioned above directing ROTC units to give stuff to CAP instead of DRMO will appear?  It certainly would be helpful.  Thanks

Still can't post it on the Board due to above.  I'll try to send via PM to all interested.

Here is the memo.  Thanks!!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jimmydeanno]

LOL, "while you may not donate items to a charitable or not for profit organization you are highly encouraged to donate them to Civil Air Patrol..."