Vanguard and Curry Voucher Program

[CAPDCCMOM]

Good Morning All,

Does anyone know if Vanguard will be offering a discount with the Curry Voucher? I went to the Clothing Store, at my local Air Force Base, and was amazed at the price difference. A belt ordered on-line is $16.00, the same one at the Base was $5.95. A flight cap that goes for almost $17 on-line was $10.50. Unfortunately, Vanguard's costs is going to coast us a lot of Cadets IMO.

Thanks

[CAPDCCMOM]

I meant cost us Cadets....Sorry

[LSThiker]

I went to the Clothing Store, at my local Air Force Base, and was amazed at the price difference.

Vanguard = For-Profit business
AAFES = "non-profit" government agency controlled by the DoD

[vorteks]

Get what you can at the PX and use the voucher for the shirt and pants. Times are tough and I would just be thankful for all you get for a $30 annual membership, not the least of which are several airplane flights and some dang good leaderhip training.

[abdsp51]

IIRC Vanguard was setting something up that would provide a blues kit for cadets to get the full impact of the voucher.  At work right now so can't really do much.  But there is a thread on this topic as well.

[PA Guy]

Good Morning All,

Does anyone know if Vanguard will be offering a discount with the Curry Voucher? I went to the Clothing Store, at my local Air Force Base, and was amazed at the price difference. A belt ordered on-line is $16.00, the same one at the Base was $5.95. A flight cap that goes for almost $17 on-line was $10.50. Unfortunately, Vanguard's costs is going to coast us a lot of Cadets IMO.

Thanks

The Vanguard program can't be any worse than the dysfunctional AAFES program. Whenever possible always go to a base clothing sales. For those cadets who can't the Vanguard program will hopefully provide a more timely service than the sporadic service from AAFES.

[abdsp51]

But the voucher is only good at Vanguard.  And they will have a basket set up for the items.

[coudano]

You will often have a hard time finding stuff for REALLY small cadets at AAFES, too.
They are set up for the 18-38 age market, not for 12 year olds.

[PHall]

Big reason for the price difference between Military Clothing Sales and Vanguard.
Clothing Sales can sell the "Issue" uniform items while Vanguard can not.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Checked out Vanguard last night. A flight cap that was $16.80 at the beginning of the month, now over $19.00. Just in time for the Curry Voucher.

Anyone else still think this was a great idea?

[Holding Pattern]

I forgot to ask this... is the curry voucher purchased items CAP property or personal property?

[Ned]

Checked out Vanguard last night. A flight cap that was $16.80 at the beginning of the month, now over $19.00. Just in time for the Curry Voucher.

Anyone else still think this was a great idea?

I do, for one.

Remember, you still have the ability to purchase a flight cap from Air Force Clothing Sales if you are able to do so.  (And it will be significantly cheaper for at least that particular item.) 

The Curry Voucher Program is a significant upgrade from the Free Cadet Uniform Program for several reasons.

First, the FCU simply could not effectively deliver uniforms in less than 8-10 weeks because of the way our friends at Lackland processed our orders.  We worked with them (through CAP-USAF) for years to try to improve service, but because of the AF systems, it simply could not be done without the AF investing many thousands of dollars to upgrade their systems.  Our AF colleagues are gracious, hard working people who genuinely looked for solutions to shorten the delivery times, but it could not be done within realistic constraints.  The CVP will produce near Amazon levels of service on delivery times, getting uniforms to cadets who need them in days rather than months.

Second, uniform money for cadets comes from appropriated dollars.  CAP must continue to be good guardians of tax dollars and it was difficult to justify proving free uniforms that often arrived after new cadets had actually become discouraged and left the program.  Restated, we bought hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of uniforms that are sitting in the closets of ex-members.  The CVP will improve that by investing in cadets who have shown dedication to the program by completing the first achievement.

Third, we recognize that VG will need to charge more for MILSPEC AF uniform items than Clothing Sales.  Because they are a business and have expenses that Clothing Sales will never have. (Taxes, etc.)  Complicating this is that Clothing Sales sells "issue items" (DLATS / TISA) items that by law, Vanguard cannot sell.  (Clothing Sales also sells the more expensive versions, just like VG, but VG is always going to be more expensive.)

However, if you can find other sources for MILSPEC AF style uniform items in cadet sizes that are cheaper than VG, you are absolutely free to buy there.  And I would not at all be surprised if there were such vendors out there.  Indeed, feel free to share your finds here and elsewhere.  A little competition never hurt VG.

So, the CVP program represents a significant step forward, and one that we hope will result in measurable increases in first year retention and customer satisfaction.

Keep us honest, and let us know how it is going.  We can always change things as necessary.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ned,

Can you expand on the "basket" that the voucher will apply to? Is it at least close to $100, as opposed to currently parted out $45 or so on top?

[Holding Pattern]

Checked out Vanguard last night. A flight cap that was $16.80 at the beginning of the month, now over $19.00. Just in time for the Curry Voucher.

Anyone else still think this was a great idea?

Our squadron thinks it is a wonderful idea.

[PA Guy]

Anyone else still think this was a great idea?

Yes, I do. Do you have better viable solution?

[Spam]

Aside from potential price gouging from Vanguard, I think its a good idea generally, since USAF won't (*cannot, due to security issues) allow our cadets easy base access to the AAFES exchanges to purchase allowed uniform components at cost, and since AAFES and CAP and CAP-USAF still have not cared to bother to negotiate an easier access to the online or by-phone system for our cadets to order uniform items at cost. 

(Note: SHAME on us all, from NHQ on down, for focusing on the trivial stuff when our customers (parents of new cadets) need help accessing uniforms and we've not made this an absolute number one priority to lower the barriers for easy uniform procurement at cost).

If Vanguard has recognized that they've now scored a de facto monopoly on uniforms for thousands of CAP cadets, and if they are in fact now bumping their prices by twenty percent or so, then I'm on the verge of being pretty angry, when I have many cadets to equip for encampment and no easy way to do it without extortional cost via a single source.  If there's corroboration on the cost increase alleged here, I'd like to see it.

V/R,
Spam

PS, The answer is not to tell me that "but, we get a great Vanguard rebate to support other cadet activities and pet projects", which is basically akin to saying "we're raising taxes for all to pay for the benefit of a few".

[Spam]

Afterthought reply to myself:

I said from NHQ on down, and I own part of that. For my part, I will be working within my Wing to try to schedule "AAFES days" where I'm going to pick a date monthly to ask for names/info for cadets and their parents/drivers to get on a base access list for my local base to buy items at cost. Yes, this will be a pain in the ass to our Wing admin and likely to the pass office, and I'm likely to get push back. 

The better solution would be, in my view, to break the log jam to allow on line and via phone AAFES ordering, but I haven't seen any indicators that's a priority at a national level.

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

Thanks,
Spam

[abdsp51]

Here is a link with information on "Curry Voucher"

http://capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

[JC004]

It would be nice if it could work for any cadet uniform item, since we can often supply cadets with at least part of the uniform. 

Otherwise, parents get left holding the bag with unnecessary costs. 

Since the voucher doesn't give the cadets a complete uniform, those costs could be covered with squadron-issued items - assisting the cadets who need it most.

[Holding Pattern]

It would be nice if it could work for any cadet uniform item, since we can often supply cadets with at least part of the uniform. 

Otherwise, parents get left holding the bag with unnecessary costs. 

Since the voucher doesn't give the cadets a complete uniform, those costs could be covered with squadron-issued items - assisting the cadets who need it most.

And the squadron can start preparing purchases of items they know can be used across the spectrum without too much sizing considerations (Belts, covers) and make it known to the cadets where to prioritize their purchases.

[Ned]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

The AAFES/member interface is important, and something that has been a high priority for many years.

Bear with me for a second, but the primary problem is a legal one, with no easy fix.

Even for the DoD, this is the era of Big Data.  Most of the electronic systems designed to assure both physical and electronic data security have been enlarged and merged.  For example, the Defense Enrollment Eligibility System (DEERS) started out as a modest medical database for service members in the early 1980s, but has grown into a massive system covering DoD service members, dependents, retirees, contractors, and a few others who are entitled to public key infrastructure stuff and things like Tricare, etc.

DEERS in turn feeds the Real Time Automated Personnel Identification System (RAPIDS - used for giving out CAC and DoD ID cards) and the Defense Biometric Identification Data System (DBIDS - used to determine base access and other privileges).  DEERS is also used to control access to the on-line AAFES web sites.

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

And getting the DoD and/or Congress to modify the DEERS system to allow CAP access is a pretty big deal.  Especially when our AF colleagues, when asked, would say "CAP is clearly authorized AAFES access for uniforms, and even though there are occasional difficulties with access to particular bases, usually CAP members can secure access after coordinating with a Liaison Region."

So we have not been able to get much traction on DEERS eligibility.  Since it controls access to benefits as well as basis, DEERS is guarded pretty carefully by DoD and they are extremely reluctant to even discuss any changes to their secure systems.

And the on-line AAFES access issues are directly related.  Their entire back end is tied to DEERS.  There is simply no way to create some sort of "duplicate" or "parallel system" to allow CAP members access to on-line uniforms without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Because it has to be tied to their existing ordering and fulfillment systems.  There are a lot of moving parts that would have to be changed to accommodate us, and no resources to make those changes.

I want to point out again how supportive our AF colleagues are in this regard.  The CAP-USAF folks are unwavering in their support of CAP, but there is only so much they can do.   This is not so much of an "AF issue," as it is a DoD and AAFEES issue.

We continue to engage with CAP-USAF on the issue, but I don't see much change in the immediate future on getting CAP members enrolled in DEERS, nor does there appear to be a feasible work-around.

So we will continue to address local base access issues to allow members to obtain uniforms at the best possible price, and work with VG to provide options for other members.

Essentially all of our cadets -- and seniors who wish to wear the AF-style uniforms -- are able to get them today.  It is not as easy nor as cheap as I would like, but at least we can meet our requirements and conduct our missions.

[Holding Pattern]

Thank you for the in-depth explanation.

Can you clarify which laws exclude CAP from access to these systems?

[lordmonar]

[darn] you Ned for being reasonable, logical and forthcoming......you have destroyed another perfectly good conspiracy theory and rant about "Them" and how they are out to get us!

Now what are going to talk about on CapTalk?!

[LegacyAirman]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

How are contractors authorized inclusion in DEERS?

[Holding Pattern]

I think the answer is to raise all CAP membership fees by $10/year to fund CAPNHQ sending everyone a 1099 each year with their pay on it (read, $0.)

Secondarily, tell us what laws need to be changed and we can kick that up the congressional lines.

[lordmonar]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

How are contractors authorized inclusion in DEERS?

Some contracts allow access to AAFES, Base Hospitals, Commissary, and other services.   So there is a provision to enter contractors into the DEERS.

Thing geographically separated duty locations and overseas locations

[LegacyAirman]

How does the Coast Guard Auxiliary get their uniforms?

[JC004]

How does the Coast Guard Auxiliary get their uniforms?

USCG Uniform Distribution Center.  They also have authorized suppliers for their insignia (a number of them). 

[CAPDCCMOM]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

At the prices a month or so ago, it was a difference of about $50 to the cadet. Nothing to ignore, but not nearly a disaster either. I'm not sure how we'd look elitist, when school activities and other extracurricular activities costs thousands a year.

[Ned]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

Oh, we fully understand that. and we are also very concerned about the affordability of our program. 

And I completely agree that it implicates diversity.

Even in wealthier areas, it is not uncommon for a family to have several siblings in the program and things like uniforms, dues, and encampment fees add up so quickly.  We get that.  We really, really do.

We constantly are looking for ways to reduce the burden on families, and welcome all ideas that might help.

Although implemented inefficiently, the FCU program was actually a huge step forward in making CP affordable.  Remember, for most of our history, we didn't even have that.  And now we think the CVP will help even more cadets and encourage them to remain in the program.

(I don't want to distract from this thread, but watch for an important announcement in the next few weeks that will help with encampment costs for some of our cadets.)

But without new resources, I can't imagine what we can significantly change.

Until you or I can think of something else, in the meantime parents can:

1.  Rely on local squadron resources for uniforms.  (Some units can help, some cannot.)
2.  Shop for inexpensive gently used uniforms (surplus stores, eBay, etc.)
3.  Shop the cheapest source for new uniforms- AF Clothing Sales if you are close enough to an AFB
4.  Shop on-line at VG or other vendors.  VG is obligated to have all CAP uniforms and supplies; other vendors may have uniforms but cannot sell CAP-distinctive items like insignia or patches.

And feel free to post here the cheapest sources you can find.  Other parents may well benefit.

[JC004]

These things do add up:

[THRAWN]

These things do add up:

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Blues belt! Don't forget the belt!

[JC004]

My bad.  I did this in the fall and there have been price increases on most everything since then.  The increases are as follows:

Boots: $7.20
Socks: $0.55
Shoes: $3.20
Nameplate: $0.30
Nametape: $0.30
CAP tape: $0.15
Flight Cap Device: $0.50
C/Amn chevrons: $0.50
Ribbon Holder: $0.15
Curry Ribbon: $0.10
Boot Socks: $0.70
BDU cap: $0.70
BDU - Pants: $2.55
BDU - Shirt: $2.55
BDU - Black T-Shirt: (70 cents decrease)
BDU Belt: $0.70
Wing Patch: $0.15
FOR A TOTAL OF: $19.60 in increases since the fall

UPDATED TOTAL FOR NEW CADETS:

Blues belt! Don't forget the belt!

That's in the costs over the voucher.

[CAPDCCMOM]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment. 

[lordmonar]

Then make sure to add the cost of Encampment to that list.

Also you forgot about squadron dues....most units have those too.

But yes......Joining CAP is going to cost around $600 the first year....if you do everything we want you to do.

The FCU vs the CVP.....is reliability and speed vs cost.   CVP means getting your stuff in 1-2 weeks...vice 8-10 weeks.

[JC004]

What about the flight cap?

I was thinking about doing a list that would include first year as a cadet, or one for bare minimum cost to Mitchell. 

I have separate lists for UDF kit, GTM kit, and new senior members (corporate and AF style mandatory basic uniforms, separately). 

I was working on using the UDF/GT lists to identify what items the unit can get in bulk to reduce member costs (like buying a large box of adhesive bandages so members don't need to buy a box just to get a few).  Those purchases of a whole box of something, just to get a few items for the kit adds up, and they nickel and dime members to death.

[THRAWN]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment.

Until the regulations change or say otherwise, BDUs are not required. Check the language in CAPM39-1, 1.2.1...

[JeffDG]

FOR A TOTAL OF: $19.60 in increases since the fall

So, approximately 6% (a hair less).  Without some evidence that the old prices had just gone up to that, they could have been the same for a couple years before that and you just happened to pull numbers on either side of a normal price change, 6% is not "price gouging".

[JC004]

From whom are you quoting "price gouging?"

Some of the older Vanguard prices I have are, for example: BDU cap (9.90), nametape (3.55), nameplate (3.20), flight cap device (5.80), BDU belt (8.65)...  Somewhere, I have relatively recent and also post-Bookstore era (those were close to Bookstore prices - like 55-cent ribbons).

[Holding Pattern]

I'll also mention that it is very much worth googling for coupon codes before placing a vanguard order. I recently saved 15% on a significant order there a month ago or so.

[PA Guy]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment.

What would you consider a reasonable expectation of what uniforms, equipment etc. CAP should furnish to new cadets?

[CAPDCCMOM]

I am not sure what we should furnish new Cadets, when retention is such an issue. We all know how many uniforms are lost to a closet, or worse to a dumpster when a Cadet quits. Throwing money and material at a problem has never worked. What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products. Natural competition should reduce prices and improve service. Simple business 101: if I can get goods and services for less cost and more quickly from another company I will. The CVP in and of itself is not a bad thing, a monopoly is. As to the point of the language of 39-1, it is correct, the regulation has termed BDU optional. However, in the spirit and practice, the BDU is required for many events and activities that a Cadet would be drawn to and interested in. At times Perception is more important than the reality.

[Spam]

Hear, Hear!

"Required" or not, I view the blues uniform as more optional than the BDUs. After all, most of the best activities from a cadet standpoint occur when wearing BDUs or "other than blues":  O flights, emergency services, and 97 percent of encampments, for a start (blues at our Wing encampment are worn once for graduation practice, and once for graduation, else, BDUs). Many flight academies and special acts (e.g. gliders, E-Tech, etc. etc.) wear golf shirts and shorts, and don't even wear BDUs, much less blues.

I think I'd vote to make BDUs the main uniform, and blues an optional not required until the Wright Brothers award or something... and to break the Vanguard monopoly, of course, but we seem to have sold our souls on that one.

V/R,
Spam

[lordmonar]

What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products. Natural competition should reduce prices and improve service. Simple business 101: if I can get goods and services for less cost and more quickly from another company I will. The CVP in and of itself is not a bad thing, a monopoly is.

It is not quite that simple.
I would be the first to agree with you that fair an open competition should.....should create better products and service.
IF.....it was worth someone's effort.

Even in the Hock Shop Days......he was only reselling stuff he bought from V-guard....and was out source in his embroidery work.   And lets be completely honest...there was problems with his quality too.

My point is that Vanguard Monopoly is/was there for a reason.   Maybe not a good one....but it was not simply to just line Vanguards pocket at our expense.

Open competition with other insignia providers may or may not lower their prices.

As for uniform prices.....Vanguard does not have a monopoly on that....so any time you complain about that......that is NOT a monopoly issue...that is a fair and open trade issue.

[CAPDCCMOM]

I have another point to make on the optional vs. required definition on the BDU. When we tell a Cadet or a Senior that a BDU uniform is "required" for an activity an an event, that uniform is no longer optional. We are also thereby telling Cadets and Seniors that if they wish to participate in said event they must have the BDU uniform. Just by that language, in spite of being able to recite 39-1 chapter and verse, that makes BDU a requirement for full participation in CAP.

[THRAWN]

I have another point to make on the optional vs. required definition on the BDU. When we tell a Cadet or a Senior that a BDU uniform is "required" for an activity an an event, that uniform is no longer optional. We are also thereby telling Cadets and Seniors that if they wish to participate in said event they must have the BDU uniform. Just by that language, in spite of being able to recite 39-1 chapter and verse, that makes BDU a requirement for full participation in CAP.

Horsehockey. Open CAPM 39-1, read and understand section 1.2.1. If it doesnt meet those conditions it cannot be required.

[JC004]

Field uniforms are required for Emergency Services.  There are certainly circumstances for which a field uniform may be required, and if it cannot be produced, the cadet cannot properly or safely participate.  Showing up with a service uniform and a manual won't cut it for a mission in rough terrain. 

Emergency Services is not mandatory for cadet program participation, but they can certainly be required to wear certain items in order to be able to participate.

[THRAWN]

Field uniforms are required for Emergency Services.  There are certainly circumstances for which a field uniform may be required, and if it cannot be produced, the cadet cannot properly or safely participate.  Showing up with a service uniform and a manual won't cut it for a mission in rough terrain. 

Emergency Services is not mandatory for cadet program participation, but they can certainly be required to wear certain items in order to be able to participate.

Covered in the voluntary language in the reg. Want your troops in boots and utes? Either provide them or make that an optional meeting night.

[JC004]

nobody was talking about meetings.  They were talking about activities.  These activities have required items; they are just not required activities. 

[Ned]

What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products.

I can't say that doesn't sound reasonable.  Heck, "monopolies" sound downright un-American.

Not to derail this thread further, but the whole VG issue is often misunderstood. 

Anyone is free to buy AF-style uniforms from anyone in the world.  I don't buy uniforms from VG for the very reasons you have pointed out - they are more expensive than I can get them at AF clothing sales.

VG does have a license to produce CAP-specific items like insignia, patches, etc.  And that agreement is a "win-win" for CAP members.  In exchange for the license, VG is obligated to make and carry the full line of CAP insignia, including a lot of insignia that would not otherwise be available.  For example, pretty much anyone with an embroidery machine in their garage could make and sell CAP nametapes for the BDU/BBDU uniforms at a price likely to be cheaper than VG.  There is probably a market that amounts to 100,000 units a year for that product, and as you point out natural competition would help keep prices down for the average member.

But let's talk about something like a Master CDI badge.  It is a moderately complicated insignia involving metal casting and some enamel.  And I'd be surprised if anyone could sell more than a couple of dozen a year.  Restated, no commercial vendor could possibly make and sell them economically - they'd essentially have to be custom-made each time and would cost over $100.  Multiply that by all of dozens and dozens of "low density" insignia, and you get some idea of the problem.  As a business model, VG makes money on nametapes to cover losses on less popular items.

If we lifted vendor restrictions, it would become a quality control "race to the bottom" as off-shore manufacturers reduced quality to reduce prices.  This is particularly acute when they do most of their selling to unsophisticated buyers like young cadets and parents who do not fully appreciate the importance of quality insignia.

And remember, licensed vendors is actually the norm in this area.  My kids were Scouts, and we could only buy uniforms and accessories from authorized sellers and manufacturers.  Because the Scouts need to control quality and prices, just as we do.  Heck, I can't buy logo wear for my favorite sports teams from anyone other than licensed sellers for exactly the same reasons.  Ditto for essentially every group that has uniforms and insignia from the Knights of Columbus to Camp Fire and everyone in between.

CAP tried producing and selling our insignia for many years through CAPMart and the Bookstore - and lost spectacular amounts of money doing so.  (Dues money, BTW).  Since running an insignia supply business is not one of our core competencies, we wisely held an open bidding competition and VG won.  The license comes up for renewal every few years, so VG has every motive to maintain reasonable prices and service levels.

[NC Hokie]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Watch out NC!! the 39-1 police will be here any moment reciting for you.

[lordmonar]

That was the second most ignored rule in 39-1.

[CAPDCCMOM]

What was the first? The regulation in now, in practice, incorrect. Let's face it the uniform is mandatory

[lordmonar]

What was the first? The regulation in now, in practice, incorrect. Let's face it the uniform is mandatory

it has always been mandatory because it's has always been mandated at encampment.   

The first most ignored rule is "this regulation is mandatory and no deviations are allowed"

[THRAWN]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

[lordmonar]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

The rules are not clear.   The rules have changed.  And yes...the Curry Link is the "regulatory" cite for the assertion that that the BDUs are now required for all cadets.

[LSThiker]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

The rules are not clear.   The rules have changed.  And yes...the Curry Link is the "regulatory" cite for the assertion that that the BDUs are now required for all cadets.

Now there is a conundrum.  CAPM 39-1 clearly states the only uniform a cadet is required to own is the short-sleeve blues.  CAPR 52-16 states that cadets must own and wear that uniform properly before promotion.  However, the "Curry" link uses a few choice words that complicate the matter.  For example:

Squadron tries to outfit the cadet with uniform items, using local supplies, if able. Cadets purchase the remaining BDU articles through Vanguard or their vendor of choice

Since cadets will need to be in uniform to earn the Curry and qualify for the uniform voucher, the BDUs are recommended for new cadets working towards their first achievement

The way I would read the first "Curry" link quote is that the cadet is required to purchase the BDU specific items (nametapes, CAP tapes, wing patch, etc), while the squadron outfits the BDUs to the cadet if they have the ability.  But what happens if the squadron does not have the BDUs to outfit?  Clearly CAPM 39-1 states that a squadron commander cannot require a cadet to have anything beyond the short-sleeve blues. 

The second link quote is a bit different.  Obviously, if the squadron has the BDUs, they issue those out.  However, if they do not but they have a set of blues, then go ahead and use those instead.  But again, what happens if a squadron does not have either of those?  It falls back on the CAPM 39-1 citation.  But now you cannot promote the cadet due to uniforms.  So we get into a cycle. 

I think the reality is that a lot of squadron commanders will just simply promote the cadet to C/Amn so that way he/she can receive his/her free uniform even if the cadet does not have a complete set of BDUs (which of course happened before the new program). 

Overall, I think NHQ needs to provide a bit more guidance or completely rescind the CAPM 39-1 requirement, which might make things a bit more complicated in the long run.  Of course, there is a work around (but may not necessarily be "NHQ approved".  That is, if possible, have the squadron host a few "community BDUs" that have the name "CADET" that are issued out for the promotion so that way the cadet can receive his/her blues.  After they get the blues, they give the BDUs back.  Then it is up to the cadet to purchase a complete BDU set.

I understand that BDUs are essentially required for encampment.  However, let us analyze an example where a cadet is not really required to have BDUs immediately.  Essentially, a cadet is not really required to own BDUs until he/she goes to encampment or chooses to do ES.  If the cadet does not go to encampment until his 2nd year in the program (perhaps due to cost), then he does not really need BDUs until then.  So the family, which may have a financial hardship, can spread out the burden of purchasing the uniform over those following months, which also would allow him/her to save/work for the cost of the encampment. 

With the new program, the upfront costs have gone up, which may discourage people from joining.  However, I do think the new program is superior to the old program.  In addition, I definitely agree with Ned's argument that the vast majority of purchased uniforms now sit in a closet, trash, surplus store, or Goodwill type store.   

[Tim Day]

What was the first? The regulation in now, in practice, incorrect. Let's face it the uniform is mandatory

it has always been mandatory because it's has always been mandated at encampment.   

Since encampment is voluntary, mandating BDU for participation in encampment does not make it a mandatory uniform. That said, I believe BDUs are for all intents and purposes mandatory but it's an implied requirement as "a uniform" is required for Curry and we won't provide free Blues.

The explicit mandate applicable to all Cadets is for Blues. See CAPM 39-1 Para 1.2.1.1. At the same time Squadron Commanders may require other uniforms but if purchase is not voluntary must provide them, see 1.2.1.

Since Cadets must attempt to promote, this in my opinion has levied another requirement on Squadron Commanders, who now in effect (without the benefit of having an explicitly worded regulation) must provide BDUs.

Our uniform manual and our supply chain are currently misaligned, and Squadron Commanders are bearing the brunt of it. To be fair, it hasn't been much better with AAFES and their inability to keep up with timely orders. This is a "needs improvement" item and I hope CAP/CP is tracking.

My only suggestion would be to try and extend the voucher program to in-store AAFES purchases, perhaps even as a reimbursement.

[lordmonar]

I guess we can argue is encampment is voluntary or not.  But is a required part of the cadet program.

[MIKE]

I guess we can argue is encampment is voluntary or not.  But is a required part of the cadet program.

If you want pips or to attend 99% of NCSAs... but otherwise it is not a requirement.  If you wanted to change it so that encampment is required to complete Phase I and Line Staff for Phase II... Then it is "required".

[Tim Day]

Cadets agree to attend the next Encampment when they join, and BDUs are typically required for Encampment. Thus while Encampment is voluntary, Cadets have volunteered to attend.

Either way, Squadron Commanders likely have a duty to help Cadets obtain BDUs (one more Squadron Commander responsibility). We're doing the best we can here to look for reliable and inexpensive sources in the Virginia area.

I'd like to see the CAPM 39-1 changed to reflect the reality. But even if it isn't, the AAFES program certainly wasn't working.

[AirAux]

You know, IIRC, back in the day, I had a couple of sets of khaki's and a gym outfit and I went to encampment at Chanute AFB for 10 days.  How did I make it without BDU's??  Strange.... 

[LSThiker]

There is an interesting thought.  Obviously, one could do an encampment in blues provided enough thought and planning is put into it.  However, what do you think would be lost if there were blues only encampments "again"?  Would those loses be truly a loss? Or could those same lessons be accounted in an other exercise or activity?

For example, would not bringing BDUs really result in the loss of not doing an LRC as you could do it with simply BDU pants and shoes (I.e. COS)?